The Chaos Marine Warband

[Clewz]

I think you're right though, a lot of people take 3.5 as the bible of chaos and anything different was just a mistake. But as I've pointed this out elsewhere, the people who get funny about ancient enemies is a bit amusing as when chaos was first created for a titan game Adeptus Mechanicus (as I've been told), it was Tzeentch/Khorne and Nurgle/Slaanesh that didn't get on. This makes more sense to me as you have the psykers and anti-psykers not getting on. That is quite a big difference compared to a progressing time line.

 

. I originally got into GW stuff around the time of the release of Slaves to Darkness which was a bit before Adeptus mechanicus. It was definitely Khorne v Slaanesh back then. Short while later Lost and the damned came out and introduced Tzeentch v Nurgle. Pretty sure they used to have animosity rules back then so although you could have the different followers of each god there was a potential they could spend half the time fighting with each other.

[the jeske]

But it brings back a lot of already-established lore, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think a lot of the issue here is people that came into the setting with 3.5 and the Index Astartes articles, and assumed from the rules for Legion-specific armies that the Legions were still united and got on really great.

Probablly , I never liked the 2ed fluff it made no sense to me [without structure the csm would have never got past cadia]. Still I wouldnt mind the fluff change , if there were options to play different builds . the new dex each army it produces is a BL copy past list . Its like nids pre 3ed dex , each army identical. Even when fluff is put aside [impossible for some people ] the dex gives nothing new and takes a lot away . Sometimes the new book feels like something for a painter not a gamer . Yeah you can have zerkers and pms painted in AL color , but A it doesnt make it different then a BL army and B if A is true then it doesnt really feel like an AL army. Considering the drop in sales chaos sm had it does look like a lot of peopleb think the same.

 

 

 

What units did Chaos lose since the last Codex (besides demons)? Alpha Legion Cultists. And Basilisks.

cult terminators . so that is 4 more. sonics on units for EC [so dreads, havocks , bikers ], a working mid level HQ in the form of Lt. And that is just models , considering there is 0 difference between DPs, csm etc one could say we lost more.

 

 

Orks had lost some units with their 3rd Edition Codex (weirdboys, boarboys, the cool "cannons" reduced to three generic ones), They got back the weirdboys in the current Codex, but still no cy-boars. 'Ard Boys and Skar Boys got consolidated into one single upgrade for regular Boys. IG had lost some units with their 4th Edition Codex (Exterminators, Griffons), but got them back now (and then some).

Chaos overall has gotten 5 new units since 2nd Edition (Raptors, Obliterators, Possessed, Defilers and Vindicators), just not this time around. Well, maybe the Vindicator, which was only a limited option for the Iron Warriors in the last Codex.

What units did Chaos lose since the last Codex (besides demons)? Alpha Legion Cultists. And Basilisks.

Ok and chaos lost "blood priests" in the 3.5 dex. I was talking about the 5th ed desing philosophy . Armies didnt loose units [of course some stuff was hardcore like GW telling sm hth trait players to play BA or SW] , they gained new ones . Raptors , possessed ,defilers and vindicators are not new units [2ed was what 8-10 years ago ?] and we got 0 new ones .

As the IG goes , yes they had model ranges cut to boost FW sells [untile 5th ed came and they gain a lot of new units ] .

 

You buy some Chaos Marines and they come with boltgun and close combat weapons, as well as assault and anti-vehicle grenades. You don't need to buy anything else and a simple Chaos Marine already is a threat to the majority of vehicles and units in the game

yeah aside for the two melta guns or two plasma guns [that arent in the box ] and a rhino and a fist champion and an IOCU. just using the basic unit , no upgrades to make them viable ;) .

[Ashe Darke]

I think you're right though, a lot of people take 3.5 as the bible of chaos and anything different was just a mistake. But as I've pointed this out elsewhere, the people who get funny about ancient enemies is a bit amusing as when chaos was first created for a titan game Adeptus Mechanicus (as I've been told), it was Tzeentch/Khorne and Nurgle/Slaanesh that didn't get on. This makes more sense to me as you have the psykers and anti-psykers not getting on. That is quite a big difference compared to a progressing time line.

 

. I originally got into GW stuff around the time of the release of Slaves to Darkness which was a bit before Adeptus mechanicus. It was definitely Khorne v Slaanesh back then. Short while later Lost and the damned came out and introduced Tzeentch v Nurgle. Pretty sure they used to have animosity rules back then so although you could have the different followers of each god there was a potential they could spend half the time fighting with each other.

Well this is what I've been told by my mate who has following for a very long time, like 25 years. So what I said was basically what he told me about a month ago. He gave the distinct impression that this was prior to Slaves to Darkness which did mean they did change it if what I was told is true. I mean I don't think he's a liar but until I see it myself I will always phrase it like that, 'this is what I've been told by someone else'. Lexicanum says they were released in same year which isn't helpful.

 

Sometimes the new book feels like something for a painter not a gamer .

This is what I've said before. It allows for very diverse looking armies but functionally they're pretty much the same.

[Legatus]

"Armies can be built to represent just one these legions or an alliance of the members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord." That's from the 3.5 Codex, page 2.

Really, anything this Codex has to offer could be done with the previous one's vanilla list. The lack of rules and focus in this codex is NOT an increase of possibilities. Any of the ideas above would have worked in the 3.5 Codex. The whole "mixed warband" notion would've been just as valid.

This brings us back to the argument that the 5th Edition Codices are all intended to consolidate all the variant army lists into one single list. They did it with Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard and Imperial Space Marines. In all those instances you can name special rules or specific choices that were lost and not included in the basic list, while other specific choices now were. The current Codex Chaos Space Marines has dropped the limit on Pbliterators and includes Vindicators, for example, so someone wanting to play Iron Warriors could field such choices. There is no more limit on Raptors as well, which allows Raptor heavy Night Lord forces.

 

 

What units did Chaos lose since the last Codex (besides demons)? Alpha Legion Cultists. And Basilisks.

cult terminators . so that is 4 more.

Still in there. Just not particularly exciting.

 

sonics on units for EC [so dreads, havocks , bikers ]

It's a pity for Dreads and Bikers, though I think no one would object having them just count as boltguns, so the units are still playable. The havocs can drop three of the heavies and be used as a Troops choice instead.

 

a working mid level HQ in the form of Lt.

I think you will find that Space Marines and Imperial Guard have no different levels of their standard HQ choice anymore either.

 

 

Ok and chaos lost "blood priests" in the 3.5 dex. I was talking about the 5th ed desing philosophy . Armies didnt loose units [of course some stuff was hardcore like GW telling sm hth trait players to play BA or SW] , they gained new ones .

Did they all, though? How many new units did Eldar, Dark Angels and Orks really get? Dark Angels have "veterans" now, which are a travesty to their fluff (almost like Ultramarine TWV) while Orks got back Weirdboys and Shokk Attack Guns they had lost in their 3rd Edition Codex. Those were the Codices that were published around the time the Codex Chaos Space Marine had been released.

 

 

Raptors , possessed ,defilers and vindicators are not new units [2ed was what 8-10 years ago ?] and we got 0 new ones .

But how many new units did Orks, Imperial Guard and Eldar got with their 3rd Edition Codices? Do you see what I am getting at? Chaos, 3rd/3.5 Edition, 5 new units. Eldar, 1 new unit (Shining Spears, IIRC, maybe Fire Prisms as well?).

 

And I still don't agree that "new units" are a neccessity for a newly released Codex, or neccessarily a good thing.

 

 

yeah aside for the two melta guns or two plasma guns [that arent in the box ] and a rhino and a fist champion and an IOCU. just using the basic unit , no upgrades to make them viable

But thise are a given, aren`t they? a couble of unique upgrades for teh squad. But no need to equip your 15 points basic models with an additional +3 or +4 points of extra gear to make them more effective.

 

3.5 Khorne Berserker: 19 points (created from a CSM with added Mark of Khorne)

add Frag Grenades: +1 point

add Krak Grenades: +2 points

add "Chain Axe": +1 point

maybe "Furious Charge"? +3 points

Now your model costs 26 points, but he's good to go (he'll still jump out of his transport when you don't want him). I think most people just skipped the grenades, though, and not neccessarily added a veteran skill.

 

4th Khorne Berserker: 21 points

done! complete with frag & krak and "furious charge" awesome! No need for teh opponent to ask whether they are equipped with any kind of grenades or skills, which is quite convenient.

[Clewz]

I think you're right though, a lot of people take 3.5 as the bible of chaos and anything different was just a mistake. But as I've pointed this out elsewhere, the people who get funny about ancient enemies is a bit amusing as when chaos was first created for a titan game Adeptus Mechanicus (as I've been told), it was Tzeentch/Khorne and Nurgle/Slaanesh that didn't get on. This makes more sense to me as you have the psykers and anti-psykers not getting on. That is quite a big difference compared to a progressing time line.

 

. I originally got into GW stuff around the time of the release of Slaves to Darkness which was a bit before Adeptus mechanicus. It was definitely Khorne v Slaanesh back then. Short while later Lost and the damned came out and introduced Tzeentch v Nurgle. Pretty sure they used to have animosity rules back then so although you could have the different followers of each god there was a potential they could spend half the time fighting with each other.

Well this is what I've been told by my mate who has following for a very long time, like 25 years. So what I said was basically what he told me about a month ago. He gave the distinct impression that this was prior to Slaves to Darkness which did mean they did change it if what I was told is true. I mean I don't think he's a liar but until I see it myself I will always phrase it like that, 'this is what I've been told by someone else'. Lexicanum says they were released in same year which isn't helpful.

 

 

Before slaves to darkness I dont really recall there being much fluff for chaos in 40k. There was the odd renegade & some warp entities. As far as I remember STD introduced Khorne & slaanesh for the first time along with the horus heresy. There could be the possibility some warhammer fantasy battle/ roleplay article states this contradiction.

 

The adeptus titanicus game definitely came out after slaves to darkness as I remember the first White Dwarf I ever purchased had an article introducing the book and new miniature range.

[Clewz]

One thing i have noticed is the lack of war gear options, compared with such a list as the space wolves one. Honestly would it hurt to have a handful of chaos gifts like collars of khorne etc

[Ashe Darke]

Hmm he does seem to a be a bit shakey with his recollection skills, especially in Blood Bowl when he has a bad drive due to mistakes he made. His other point was that chaos was made to give the imperium someone to fight in the game as there were no real bad guys about at this point.

[Hellios]

Raptors , possessed ,defilers and vindicators are not new units [2ed was what 8-10 years ago ?] and we got 0 new ones .

But how many new units did Orks, Imperial Guard and Eldar got with their 3rd Edition Codices? Do you see what I am getting at? Chaos, 3rd/3.5 Edition, 5 new units. Eldar, 1 new unit (Shining Spears, IIRC, maybe Fire Prisms as well?).

 

And I still don't agree that "new units" are a neccessity for a newly released Codex, or neccessarily a good thing.

 

 

The Eldar, Ork and Imperial Guard Codices were all done far better than the Chaos SM and the Dark Angels codex makes me want to cry although for different reasons.

 

Eldar... well you now have a seer council... for Ulthwé players even if it is nowhere near as good as the old ones... WG can eb taken as troops is you have a lot of points... so its possible to do a spirit host but not great because of the points involved to make them scoring. You now have Autarchs which can be used as wild rider chiefs and jet bikes are troops. Dire Avengers are now worth taking as troops so people can most certainly do a sword wind army... Pathfinders haven't changed much except you no longer have mandatory units or the disruption table... eldar never had as many choices and it was mainly FOC changes... which has been addressed in the new codex to some extent.

 

Orks... well this is my brothers realm... it seems like a good dex but I can't honestly say apart from they seem to have a good number of builds which again can represent clans... but I can't say how effective they are.

 

Well with the loss of traits some IG armies will have taken a blow but on the whole I think IG now have a lot more choices... so that is a positive...

 

Oh and Space Marines they get the totally messed up character mechanic that gives you "chapter tactics"... which kinda makes your army special except that that the 1st company commander of the Ultramarines is called Lysander the 2nd company commander is still Golden Boy however... but the 3rd, 4th and 5th are called Pedro, Vulkan and Shrike. I don't mind DIY chapters using the characters as much (although I do think traits were better, although the drawbacks were rubbish...) but it's annoying when chapters with special characters go around using the SC's of other chapters... especially UM players... they only have 6? characters as it is...

 

Personally I think the Eldar codex has improved (not as good as when combined with eye of terror and craftworlds mini dex) but the single main codex is better as it made it possible to resemble at least some of those lists in at least a semi-competitive manner.

 

IG lists again on a whole have gotten better although some people have probably lost their fighting style :'(

 

The Chaos dex (and I never even played with Chaos in 3.5) IMO is not as good as the 3.5 dex. I loved playing against Chaos in the old 3.5 dex as I never knew what was coming... sneaky alpha legion?, RAWRRR World Eaters? Ka-BooM Iron Warriors? Daemon Bomb Word Bearers? Creeping Death Death Guard? Sonic-daemon Emperors Children? and so on and so forth... now I roughly know what people are going to be taking if they are trying to be somewhat competitive and even if they are not there still seems to be less variety.

 

As I play thousand sons I'm glad we have an invulnerable save and I guess AP3 bolters are nice but I would trade that for all is dust or 2 wounds. 1ksons is about the only legion I can think of that came off better in this dex with BL and other "generic do what you want lists" remaining the same. Other lists are mehhrr but I would take the flavour and in some cases the power of the old lists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although I guess this is another pointless topic where two groups of people see the same thing but from a different perspective and that although we are both correct we are also both wrong...

 

I do think many chaos players live with what we have and make the best of it... but I don't think that means we have to be happy about a sub-standard codex that was rushed.

[Clewz]

To Ashe Darke - That bit is probably true as all you really had (unless you fancied doing some creative modelling) were the orks, eldar and zoats. There were plenty of races in rogue trader but just no models and distinct background to follow.

[Ashe Darke]

To Ashe Darke - That bit is probably true as all you really had (unless you fancied doing some creative modelling) were the orks, eldar and zoats. There were plenty of races in rogue trader but just no models and distinct background to follow.

Looking into this a little further the game came out before the WD article apparently which was a follow up so while the WD came out after Slaves to Darkness the game might not necessarily have came out after as well. I'm looking to see if I can find the old rules anywhere now.

[tyrannosaurus]

The argument here is not which is more fluffy, warbands or legions [they are both just as fluffy, and likely] but the lack of effort/imagination/support that went into the current dex. I think all chaos players will agree that warbands are cool [the fluff surroudning the Red Corsairs/Badab Wars is pretty sweet]. But why would I choose a Red Corsair army? So I get to paint my miniatures red and take Huron Blackheart? There is nothing in the dex that makes warbands distinctive. They are just chaos marines painted in different colours.

 

The reason why space marine players choose different chapters is firstly becuase they feel an affinity with that chapter [for whatever reason - they saw a piece of artwork they liked, they read a book they thought was cool], and secondly because of the distinctive troop choices afforded by that chapter [it can be the other way around - I chose Emperor's children becuase I love noise marines]. Once they're sucked in by the fluff they look for the cool unit choices available. Or If they chose the chapter becuase of a unit choice, they read up on the fluff. Chaos players do the same when choosing a legion/warband to play - but where is the distinctiveness? Where is the distinctive unit to go along with the fluff? Give me an exciting troop choice and I might think about playing Red Corsairs [i think they are experts at ship-to-ship combat - maybe a powerful close combat otpion to represent this?]. The only slight distinctive qualities the dex has are for the cult troops. I love noise marines, so I chose an Emperor's Children army. Why choose a warband above a legion?

 

Also, where is the background for more warbands? The dex is severely lacking in background info that could spark my imagination into using/creating a warband. Sell it to me a little...

 

I get that some players will want to include all of the cult troops becuase they are all very cool in their own way. But I feel that this takes away the distinctiveness of the army, and leads to cookie-cutter lists. Plus I am kinda protective of my EC's and wouldn't want to see them allied to the forces of a god they hate. I just can't reconcile Slaaneshy worshippers fighting alongside Khorne. It's just wrong. In the same way I'm sure space marine players wouldn't like to see mixed chapters all of the time. Occasionally chapters join together to repel a threat which is one way you could justify that, but most of the time they keep themselves to themselves.

 

So to sum up, why have cool background information about warbands/legions [Corsairs, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers] with no distinctive unit choices?

[RapatoR]

Hi, interesting discussion here. I will add my two cents here.

I am relatively new to Warhammer 40k, I like idea of warbands (with certain restrictions of course) and yes legions are scattered, but look at this example: I am living in Slovakia, so for example on hockey, I would be fan of Slovakian team first, then Slovakians are Slavic nations, so if there isn`t Slovakian team, I would be fan of some other Slavic team (Czech republic for example), if there is`t anz Slavic team, I would prefer some Europian team before American or Asian team, and then if there would be match between Earth and some alien race I would prefer team from Earth. Yes there are exceptions, but what I am trying to say is, that every marine would prefer own fraction before other. So I think it`s more natural for CSM`s to prefer own legion before alling to the other legion.

[Legatus]

So to sum up, why have cool background information about warbands/legions [Corsairs, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers] with no distinctive unit choices?

Why would anyone want to play Iron Hands, or Silver Skulls, or Saim-Hann, or Goffs, or Steel Legion, if they do not have distinct unit choices?

[Hellios]

So to sum up, why have cool background information about warbands/legions [Corsairs, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers] with no distinctive unit choices?

Why would anyone want to play Iron Hands, or Silver Skulls, or Saim-Hann, or Goffs, or Steel Legion, if they do not have distinct unit choices?

 

Not many people seem to play IH and SS as far as I can tell... yes they do exist on the web and hell I've even seem them in real life... Well it was that or very shiny Iron Warriors...

 

lots of people do play Saim-Hann especially with the new Eldar codex in 5th ed as that codex works well well for mechanised jetbike armies :D when combined with 5th ed rules. It's true I could play an Ulthwé army with the same units but I use a seer council and guardians, I would like my Guardians to be black guardians and to have a proper Ulthwé seer council but it will suffice.

 

Wouldn't a DEFFWING army be a pretty good Goff list? As I say I'm not an Ork expert I just know Goffs are da BIGGAST DER FOR DA BEST!!! (AKA nobs) Snakebites would be a better example... no cyboars (Counts as bikes? :@), no squiggoths... :'( not that they had them in normal rules in the old dex... what will I do just field a load of grots?

 

Steel legion... = Mechanized guard right?

 

World Eaters... apparently all mad men now... however I can't get mad men who are terminators... oh no frank died... who cares about khorne any more...

 

I'm not saying I agree with the loss of choice in other armies I just think Chaos felt the stick pretty hard. Many people play particular groups within armies for fluff, others will do it to be different. I don't know many people who have Minotaurs... although I like what little fluff they have as well :D.

 

The biggest problem is that they had rules that gave them a little bit of character so that you were playing night lords not just generic csm who are dark blue... even if you didn't totally agree with the rules (you could play night lords without traits)... however now you have no choice... maybe if you could take chaos bikes as troops or raptors as troops some people would like to do that. Maybe I would like to have a berzerker upgrade that can be applied to units that actually turns them into khorne berzerkers rather than generic khorne affiliated unit.

 

Its as if you put space wolves into the standard marine dex and mad them baby blue marines instead of ultra-marines blue marines. However if you put in 4 pages of special rules it would make me feel better they wouldn't just be baby-blue marines anymore... the same goes for black templars, dark angels and blood angels.

 

The current codex isn't bad when it comes to game mechanics and its got some ok renegade stuff, but some of the legions hardly get a luck in when it comes to fluff and when it comes to playing well it's basically a choice of paint scheme and self imposed handi-caps (which is what I do with my 1ksons) and I'm ok with that but I would like it if I could make a 1kson list that could stand a chance in a serious tournament without a serious amount of luck.

[Lay]

This brings us back to the argument that the 5th Edition Codices are all intended to consolidate all the variant army lists into one single list. They did it with Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard and Imperial Space Marines. In all those instances you can name special rules or specific choices that were lost and not included in the basic list, while other specific choices now were. The current Codex Chaos Space Marines has dropped the limit on Pbliterators and includes Vindicators, for example, so someone wanting to play Iron Warriors could field such choices. There is no more limit on Raptors as well, which allows Raptor heavy Night Lord forces.

Provided that "Raptor heavy" is enough to meet the players expectations of a NL army.

 

So to sum up, why have cool background information about warbands/legions [Corsairs, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers] with no distinctive unit choices?

Why would anyone want to play Iron Hands, or Silver Skulls, or Saim-Hann, or Goffs, or Steel Legion, if they do not have distinct unit choices?

They'd certainly enjoy them if they had them. Iron Hands players in particular weren't very pleased when the 5ed SM Codex didn't have a special character for them.

[tyrannosaurus]

So to sum up, why have cool background information about warbands/legions [Corsairs, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers] with no distinctive unit choices?

Why would anyone want to play Iron Hands, or Silver Skulls, or Saim-Hann, or Goffs, or Steel Legion, if they do not have distinct unit choices?

 

Thanks for supporting my point, they do play these armies because they love the background/look of the models. Are you telling me that if any distinctive unit choices were available these players would politely decline? Also, Iron Hands and Steel Legion have got their own models. Chaos legions get shoulder pads.

 

The options are to accept the changes and carry on playing, or go do something else. Lot's of people have done the latter, becuase of the shoddy codex, which is a shame for the game/community. I've swallowed it, but don't expect me to ask for more. Plus I think that after spending hundreds [probably thousands] pf pounds on the products of a company, I'm entitled to express disapporoval of a product.

 

Expecting legion specific codexes is unrealistic, but it would be so easy to improve what we have already got. 'Armies containing legion/cult specific special characters can upgrade troop choices to [insert unit choice here, e.g. Night Lord raptors, Alpha Legion infiltrators] for x number of points'. There is only usually one unit type that makes a legion/cult distinctive [noise marines, beserkers]. Would it be so hard to provide chaos players with an opportunity to have their distinctive unit choice?

[the jeske]

It's a pity for Dreads and Bikers, though I think no one would object having them just count as boltguns, so the units are still playable.

and predators and havocks . yes counts as does work . IF you dont use noise marines . the same looking weapon cant be a blast master and an autocanon , it is against WYSIWYG.

 

Still in there. Just not particularly exciting.

Am kind of a failing to see how a terminator unit with an icon of nurgle represents DG terminators or how is it possible that ancient EC veterans lose their +1 [and have no fearless 0_0] if they drop the icon.

 

I think you will find that Space Marines and Imperial Guard have no different levels of their standard HQ choice anymore either.

both can take . cheaper generic hq [for example a normal bike cpt is better for bike centered force then khan when you play 1250 or less points ] and better special ones. I can take a senior officer or Creed . I see the non specials as cheaper versions of the standard HQ[what Lt were in 3.5] .

 

 

 

Did they all, though? How many new units did Eldar, Dark Angels and Orks really get? Dark Angels have "veterans" now, which are a travesty to their fluff (almost like Ultramarine TWV) while Orks got back Weirdboys and Shokk Attack Guns they had lost in their 3rd Edition Codex. Those were the Codices that were published around the time the Codex Chaos Space Marine had been released.

or got battle wagons [after gone since 2ed ] , shoka attack gun[gone since 2ed] . Eldar got harlis [again not legal since the journal harli army ] . even the DAs with JJ doing it got the jet bike HQ [again back from before 2ed] .

Game wise I would compare the 2ed with what happened post it . 2ed was a skirmish type game with more complex rules [stats for gear , strategy , a whole aditional phase etc] . Considering the transition from 2ed to 3ed the game was simplified like never before [and then almost the whole 3ed the DT was trying to make the game more complex with more choice , more builds like tank company or BA army od Dead] . But without that we wouldnt be able to play with 80-120 models on each side . I remember the 2ed guant build it was a horror to play against [the 200 models one]and I stoped using it because it annoyed people like no army after that .

 

Eldar dex was made mostlly by the old team , DA was a JJ only dex . Orks were done before chaos and demons and sm were done more or less at the same time [ demons were ready and sm were in end testing when chaos dex came] . All those armies got new unit choices we got [even the DAs] we got 0.

 

 

 

But how many new units did Orks, Imperial Guard and Eldar got with their 3rd Edition Codices? Do you see what I am getting at? Chaos, 3rd/3.5 Edition, 5 new units. Eldar, 1 new unit (Shining Spears, IIRC, maybe Fire Prisms as well?).

you mean 3.5 or 3 . 3ed was huge for IG they got tank company . 3.5 gave them traits [elysian drop troops build ] . eldar got craft world eldar in 3ed [with all the new unit choices] a special build in the 13th crusade book and when all that was taken away[and star canons got nerfed] they got the circus build with harlis . [and techniclly death jesters too , even if they were unplayable] .

prism came out in 2ed , just like falcons were.

 

And I still don't agree that "new units" are a neccessity for a newly released Codex, or neccessarily a good thing

ok , but most people playing chaos in 3.5 were playing legions . Did they get new fluff in the new dex ? nope . Did they get new models ? nope [or rather we got trolled like few armies before with new possessed after the ugly metal ones] . Did we at least get a flexible codex that allows different builds ? yes , unless you are ready to play armies that are sub par and will loose not , because of your own skills but because of the choices you take at army desing level . And the last question , if this is a warband /renegade codex then where is the fluff for them ? Or does a few pages of different way to paint greener or more dark red marines counts as fluff .

3.5 Khorne Berserker: 19 points (created from a CSM with added Mark of Khorne)

add Frag Grenades: +1 point

add Krak Grenades: +2 points

add "Chain Axe": +1 point

maybe "Furious Charge"? +3 points

Now your model costs 26 points, but he's good to go (he'll still jump out of his transport when you don't want him). I think most people just skipped the grenades, though, and not neccessarily added a veteran skill.

 

4th Khorne Berserker: 21 points

done! complete with frag & krak and "furious charge" awesome! No need for teh opponent to ask whether they are equipped with any kind of grenades or skills, which is quite convenient.

true . awesome if you play BL or WE. [besides the khorn builds in 3.5 were either demon bombs or had the zerkers runing behind transports ] . now lets check the same for AL . 10 guys fist 2 melta rhino ..... done . NL 10 guys fist 2 melta rhino .. uu. IW 10 guys fist 2 melta ..damn maybe WB 10 guys fist 2 melt rhino .. something is wrong here .

And then you take thosse 3-4 squads of csm and look how 2zerker/2pm or 3-4 pm work and suddenly you find out that they work better and more flexible , but with identical game play.

I had nothing against WB doing a better gunline or demon bomb in 3.5 , I was ok with the IW shoty list being better then my AL . I could live with that , because AL had a different play style it was a different army. No one was forcing me to play green painted BL [or something that doesnt work] .

 

There is nothing in the dex that makes warbands distinctive. They are just chaos marines painted in different colours.

So true . I had nothing against army change [my nids 3ed were guants heavy , totally changed in 4th ed and now the army changes again with the 5th ed dex] , if it makes sense . I mean why is there no fluff for the warbands ? why are the chaos DIY shown in the codex copy past of legion color and the names , oh god when I first saw the game in print [i havent seen the art when people were doing translations] I totally though one of the warbands will be called breakers of worlds . Want to force us to play BL , cool . If you screw up the rules and give us a two build dex , then at least make the fluff cool , explain why something like PMS and EC working and squad level makes sense . this dex doesnt give that.

 

I mean the drop in sales must mean something . through the whole 4th ed the 3.5 dex had stables good sales , the 4th one had sales like any other non codex sm book . Rise in sales for a short time and then drop.

[Dammeron]

The background of the Chaos Space Marines is varied and flexible enough to allow for a variety of different types of force, ranging from those that consist entirely of veteran warriors from a single Traitor Legion or Renegade Chapter to polyglot warbands comprised of rag tag squads and individuals from a variety of different backgrounds: this is just as it should be.

 

The problem is and has always been representing this effectively in a coherent army list. The last Chaos Space Marine codex came close in its core army list, but made the mistake of over-complexifying factors such as the application of Marks, the appendix army lists, unit restrictions etc. The current codex makes the opposite mistake: it has removed those factors that were deemed problematic and "restrictive" rather than refining them, and has resulted in a product lacking in flavour and inspiration that fails to adequately represent the forces it purports to. Furthermore, there were decisions made that were evidently corporate in nature (the seperation of daemons into a stand alone codex) which further hamstrung the codex's capabiligties and appeal.

 

Ideally, we would see an all singing, all dancing army book, vaster and more comprehenisve than any of the existing or previous codicies, that incorporates all of the various forces of chaos in one volume. This could be achieved via the inclusion of several distinct but interactive army lists (Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, Cultists) or a SINGLE army list that is adaptable enough to represent them all (entirely possible: I'm experimenting with just such a homegrown list right now). True, the book would be bigger and more expensive than most, but what of it? Personally, I'd be happy to fork out extra for a quality product. It could also be a great opportunity for GW to shift some stock, to manufacture an "event" in the same way they did around the "Storm of Chaos" and "Eye of Terror" campaign books.

 

As for the distinction between Traitor Legion specific forces and polyglot Chaos Space Marine warbands, it would be simplicity itself to create an army list from which BOTH could be constructed convincingly without the need for abstruse or overly complex appendix lists. How? The simple inclusion of Traitor Legionaries as an elite unit distinct from your regular, rank and file Chaos Space Marines who can become troop choices if the army is led by a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince as opposed to a lesser "lieutenant" character. Pie and cake.

[RapatoR]

I gotta agree with previous posts. I would be happy, if this codex would be contentrated on warbands and renegades, but it is so hard to whrite few extra pages with special rules for each legion? Even an simple article in White Dwarf simmilar to the Index Astrates would be great. I know they are maybe scattedered and organised as warbands but don`t try to tell me, that they suddenly dropped their fighting style which used in their legions for millenia. Arkos the Faithless, lord of AL band still uses infiltration, misinformation and sabotage, and and ASAIK doesn`t have any cult troops in his warband. Now, with this codex almost every army looks simmilar: Almost everytime dual lash, KB and PM in rhinos and oblis. Yes you can built fluffy undivided list but almost everytime you get seriosly kicked your a**. I play AL and my friends run orks, WE`s and SW`s and I just look as a single unit of TWC / two units of zerks / horde of orks sweep through my whole army, while their lootas / defilers / long fangs are causing serious trouble from distance.

[The 13th Goat]

I think the best generalization of this point is as follows:

 

Whilst the idea of warbands is appealing and is in the style of Chaos, its introduction saw a crucial element of identity striped away from the players. Yes we can still have fluffy armies, but not to the extent that we are competitive with other codexs (like Space Wolves). The actual cannon stimpulates that while many of the legions do now operate on a smaller scale, they do indeed stand together when situation demands it. Dark Creed, Lord Of Night and Storm of Iron testify to this, and they are widely regarded as the main biopics into life as a Traitor Legion. To say their leadership is fractured is a given, but not to the extent that the current codex explains. I think by removing completely the legion rules GW striped out one of the great componants out of Chaos. No longer do people feel their playing century old veterens from the Horus Heresy, but simple marines that got reblious. By striping us of our Legions we are left with an army that is little more than mutated pirates, as opposed to the legions of hell we once commanded. It was an extreame GW didn't need to go to, and a simple token reformulating of the rules would have suffised. As pointed out before, Loyalist players would never be treated with such disregard in terms of Legion identity, and it is sad and telling that Chaos went from being the best sellers to one of the worst.

 

Is the Codex Baised towards Warbands? Without a doubt.

Is Gav Thorpe to blame? Not really, he was working to a breif.

Did GW drop the ball? I'd say yes, they did. And the results are on these boards and elsewhere to prove it.

[chaplain belisarius]

What should be done to improve the chaos dex?

 

 

Nihm Edit: We've had countless threads on that, let's not derail this topic by going there.

[Legatus]

Lay

 

Provided that "Raptor heavy" is enough to meet the players expectations of a NL army.

I do not even take lots of Raptors. I like the Night Lords attitude, and it is why I enjoy playing them. That might not have any discernible effect in the game, but for me that is one deciding factor why I would pick one army over another one.

 

---

 

tyrannosaurus

 

Why would anyone want to play Iron Hands, or Silver Skulls, or Saim-Hann, or Goffs, or Steel Legion, if they do not have distinct unit choices?

Thanks for supporting my point, they do play these armies because they love the background/look of the models. Are you telling me that if any distinctive unit choices were available these players would politely decline?

Sorry, I got the impression you were arguing that there would be no incentive to play as a certain variant army if there were no distinct unit choices available to them.

 

 

---

 

the jeske

 

and predators and havocks . yes counts as does work . IF you dont use noise marines . the same looking weapon cant be a blast master and an autocanon , it is against WYSIWYG.

The whole poit of "counts as" is that it goes against WYSIWYG, but I know what you were trying to say. I wanted to say that no one should have a problem with treating only the Dreadnought/Predator/Bike/Terminator sonic blasters as twin-linked boltguns but not the power armour carried ones, but then I remembered that you only play tournaments, where such issues are probably a bit more strict.

 

 

Still in there. Just not particularly exciting.

Am kind of a failing to see how a terminator unit with an icon of nurgle represents DG terminators or how is it possible that ancient EC veterans lose their +1 [and have no fearless 0_0] if they drop the icon.

Well, I did say the rules were not particularly exciting.

 

 

both can take . cheaper generic hq [for example a normal bike cpt is better for bike centered force then khan when you play 1250 or less points ] and better special ones. I can take a senior officer or Creed . I see the non specials as cheaper versions of the standard HQ[what Lt were in 3.5] .

There we are then. You can use a 250+ points Abaddon or a 160+ points Khârn, or you could just take the 90 points base Lord. Which is cheaper than any of the loyalist HQ choices I might add. You could chose the 250 points Ahriman or the 100 points Sorcerer.

 

 

Eldar dex was made mostlly by the old team , DA was a JJ only dex . Orks were done before chaos and demons and sm were done more or less at the same time [ demons were ready and sm were in end testing when chaos dex came] . All those armies got new unit choices we got [even the DAs] we got 0.

My point still remains that there have been Codices where Eldar, Imprial Guard and Orks lost some units and some Codices where they gained some units. Chaos might not have gained new units this time, but they had gotten a lot of new units in their previous Codices. I sincerely hope GW will not feel the need to add 5+ new units every time they release a new Codex and these horrid 5th Edition Codices are just a freak out recession phase (GW seems to have recovered from the slower "after LotR" years though), or by 7th Edition no army will be recognizeable anymore. I mean, 5 new monstrous creatures in the new Codex Tyranits, wth? How was that neccessary?

 

 

And the last question , if this is a warband /renegade codex then where is the fluff for them ? Or does a few pages of different way to paint greener or more dark red marines counts as fluff .

I think there might be some fluff hidden somewhere within the 18 pages of background. It may have been nice to get a bit of information who the "Apostles of MinthRas" are and why they went rogue, but I think the idea might have been not to present players with forces and fluff they could adopt but to inspire them to do their own.

 

 

true . awesome if you play BL or WE.

The other Chaos Troops choices are not too shabby either.

 

 

now lets check the same for AL . 10 guys fist 2 melta rhino ..... done . NL 10 guys fist 2 melta rhino .. uu. IW 10 guys fist 2 melta ..damn maybe WB 10 guys fist 2 melt rhino .. something is wrong here .

And then you take thosse 3-4 squads of csm and look how 2zerker/2pm or 3-4 pm work and suddenly you find out that they work better and more flexible , but with identical game play.

The Melta squad, yeah, but that is simply because 10 Chaos Marines in Rhino are an awesome Choice. If the rest of your force looks the same no matter what Legion you built it for I blame you, not the Codex.

 

 

---

 

RapatoR

 

it is so hard to whrite few extra pages with special rules for each legion?

Writing a few pages of extra rules for any given variant army is incredibly easy. Balancning nine different such variant lists so that they are equally viable and so that opponents are not completely at a loss when you say you play "Chaos" is not so easy. Having special rules for every Chapter, every Regiment, every Craftworld and Every Ork Clan is very exciting, I agree, but starting with the latest 4th Edition Codices GW has started to make away with these many smaller variant lists and has instead tried to group all of the variant lists into one single basic army list. Now you only have to read one Eldar list as an opponent to get a sense of what you might have to expect. I assume this makes it easier to set up larger tournaments or campaigns as well.

 

GW might one day decide to release smaller variant army lists again. And I will be just as excited to read the new "World Eaters" rules. But I see no sense in expecting (or demanding) variant lists for Chaos right now, while every other faction got stripped of theirs as well according to GW's current army list policy.

 

---

 

The 13th Goat

 

The actual cannon stimpulates that while many of the legions do now operate on a smaller scale, they do indeed stand together when situation demands it. Dark Creed, Lord Of Night and Storm of Iron testify to this, and they are widely regarded as the main biopics into life as a Traitor Legion.

Well, they shouldn't be. They are more "fan fiction" than canon.

[Gree]

The actual cannon stimpulates that while many of the legions do now operate on a smaller scale, they do indeed stand together when situation demands it. Dark Creed, Lord Of Night and Storm of Iron testify to this, and they are widely regarded as the main biopics into life as a Traitor Legion.

Well, they shouldn't be. They are more "fan fiction" than canon.

 

Nope

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths

 

By GW's own words BL canon is just as canon as any codex. To say that the legions cannot come together is ridiculous anyway since we have sources from both codices and Black Library novels supporting it. It may not happen all the time or most of the tme, but it happens.

[Hellios]

GW might one day decide to release smaller variant army lists again. And I will be just as excited to read the new "World Eaters" rules. But I see no sense in expecting (or demanding) variant lists for Chaos right now, while every other faction got stripped of theirs as well according to GW's current army list policy.

 

If you don't expect it why should they deliver? I don't think a new set of better rules will appear no more than I expect the government to magically solve all problems but if you don't make your feelings know regularly they won't do anything.

 

Also I don't think every other faction has been stripped to the same degree. I personally think that the dark angels and chaos got the $^%&* end of the stick. I play IG and Eldar... as I've said :ph34r: Also I don't think it's hard to balance varient list any more than it's hard to balance codex lists. I don't think you should know what's coming. That is the whole point of all comers list you make the best list to face off against any foe you might come across... you can tailor your lists if you want but where is the fun in that unless you have something to prove.

[the jeske]

Balancning nine different such variant lists so that they are equally viable and so that opponents are not completely at a loss when you say you play "Chaos" is not so easy.

but in the 4th no one was saying "chaos" people said I play AL [but it is true that some lists like WB or BL had like 3 or 4 build all viable] . I mean guys that play GK dont say I play a space marine army. The difference between now and then is , that now we say chaos and the build is there . oblits dps and short range army , no one wants to know if you play 3 pms and camper csm with plasma or 4 csm , because they have identical game play. Besides If I take the time to learn about new dexs , why shouldnt other people take the time to learn my ?

 

The Melta squad, yeah, but that is simply because 10 Chaos Marines in Rhino are an awesome Choice. If the rest of your force looks the same no matter what Legion you built it for I blame you, not the Codex.

your joking here right ? because each a bit different build starts with words "well you can try X , but taking a second DP , more oblits is a more wise choice to do". the dex forces the 2 dp ,2x2 oblit , 4 troops build on people , both because how 5th ed rules work and how efficient the units are [and by efficient It means that a lord is not just "a bit worse then a DP" and a unit of chosen a bit worse thent aking 2x2 oblits] . Compering to the last one there is 0 freedom . If someone wanted to play a demon bomb , he could build it with a WB list , an EC list , a BL list etc. They had some same choice [like 2x3 bikes] but a lot of others were different . WB offten had 2x5 minimax , EC had their syren prince etc . If someone wanted an infiltration based army he could make an ok DG one , an demonbomb/infiltration WB hybrid or a more shoty AL one . There was place for player choice , one could pick an army that suited play style , fluff[if someone cared about that].

could I have run two huge termi units a DP and 2x5 minimax and bikers ? I could was it viable , well not tier 1 , but playable . the same list build in 5th ed [i mean based around bikers or terminators , not the actuall construction of units] is auto lose in 2/3 of all missions played . A choice between play a copy past army or lose 2/3 of all games with a unplayable one , is not a choice.

 

 

Chaos might not have gained new units this time, but they had gotten a lot of new units in their previous Codices. I sincerely hope GW will not feel the need to add 5+ new units every time they release a new Codex and these horrid 5th Edition Codices are just a freak out recession phase (GW seems to have recovered from the slower "after LotR" years though), or by 7th Edition no army will be recognizeable anymore

in 3ed and in the 3.5 dex that was killed. we not only not gained models , but we had legion armies cut [with different builds] and turned in to one BL list with 2 builds. Thats like taking BA/DA/SW/BT all the other chapter specials cuting them and doing one codex ultramarines[or pick any other chapter] and saying be happy your sgt now have 1 more attack with fists[bT] and can take hvy weapons[sw].

Also have you seen the 5th ed dex . Every dex post jj era has new units , GW knew when they were filling the gap with codex csm that there are going to be HQ modifing the FoC , they knew that orks and demons have new unit choices .

 

There we are then. You can use a 250+ points Abaddon or a 160+ points Khârn, or you could just take the 90 points base Lord. Which is cheaper than any of the loyalist HQ choices I might add. You could chose the 250 points Ahriman or the 100 points Sorcerer.

only why take a 250 pts abadon or a 100 pts sorc that does nothing when you can take a DP ? the difference between the loyalist hq and our lord is that their does make sense if you are making a bike force , their librarian do make sense [or GKGM] because they have psychic hoods[or runinc staffs] a warp time sorc does kill more then a lord with a DW[specially with all those anti psyker buffs everywhere] and both dont kill more then a DP , but the DP dies a lot less. Also with the way our rhinos are build , taking a non DP HQ forces a LR rush build ,because both raptors and bikes are a non viabable choice , our rhinos are 10 man and a 1 turn down time in charge offten means no charge and trying to run a termic centered army doesnt work too. IF a cheap power weapon lord worked or a naked sorc , people would play with them . But they dont , why ? because DPs are the best and only choice for HQ [maybe Khârn/lord if someone does LR rush].

 

 

Well, I did say the rules were not particularly exciting.

ok I think this is language barrier here. For me a DG choice is something that is called DG. A plagemarine is DG , a demon prince of nurgle can be DG , tyfus is DG . 4 guys that that are called terminators and loose their +1T [and are not fearless while being the most veteran of all csm and without FnP ] are not DG. They are at best BL terminators with an icon.

 

That might not have any discernible effect in the game, but for me that is one deciding factor why I would pick one army over another one.

ok . so what does make an army a NL[or any other legion] one ? if it has identical set up and game play as every other chaos army out there , what makes the list NL ? the way you paint them and because a players say they are NL ? Is that how I should understand it ? because if yes , then there is no codex chaos or anyother faction . I can pull out my AL and play them as a cantor build with sternguard being csm . pedro being the lord , scouts being my cultists . Only everyone would say am mad for calling a pedro build an AL list.