The Chaos Marine Warband

[Legatus]

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths

By GW's own words BL canon is just as canon as any codex.

That is Marc Gascoigne avoiding to answer the question by saying "it's all true, but not neccessarily". Dan Abnett and George Mann have been more candid with their answers, one advocating all Horus heresy novels as Codex overriding canon, the other explaining that no BL material is canonically binding while Studio material is. Gav tried to be similarly diplomatic as Marc, suggesting that no BL material, or any DIY material for that matter, should be dismissed as "not-canon", and that the 40K lore is a realm of uncertainty. But in the end he still mentioned that Black Library material may or may not be adopted by the Studio writers into the "game universe", which shows a strict distinction between BL and Studio material from his perspective. Just don't call it "canon".

 

 

but in the 4th no one was saying "chaos" people said I play AL

That is true I guess. But opponents still had to know nine different army lists and their possibilities if they wanted to be at least a bit prepared.

 

 

your joking here right ? because each a bit different build starts with words "well you can try X , but taking a second DP , more oblits is a more wise choice to do". the dex forces the 2 dp ,2x2 oblit , 4 troops build on people

So you keep saying. I have never used that build, and never seen it in the GW shop. Maybe I just don't hang with the competetive kind of people. A blessing I guess.

 

 

only why take a 250 pts abadon or a 100 pts sorc that does nothing when you can take a DP ?

90 points for the Lord is about right. It's the cheap Monstrous Creature that is the problem and skewing peoples' view of the other HQ choices.

 

 

ok I think this is language barrier here. For me a DG choice is something that is called DG. A plagemarine is DG , a demon prince of nurgle can be DG , tyfus is DG . 4 guys that that are called terminators and loose their +1T [and are not fearless while being the most veteran of all csm and without FnP ] are not DG. They are at best BL terminators with an icon.

I remember three Codices where DG equated to a Marine with the Mark of Nurgle. Maybe that's why I do not insist on a marine having Initiative 3 and "feel no pain" to be counted as one. Chaos Marines losing their Mark? It's a new mechanic, and not one I am particularly fond of, but at least it is fluffy. The Chaos gods can give you power, just as they can take that power from you. I remember that in 2nd Edition Berserkers lost their bonus attacks as soon as they were beaten in combat once, so there is another reason why losing Icon benefits does not feel too alien to me (still don't like it though). Though the more crucial effect of the Mark of Khorne was of course the Chaos Armour it granted it's beaerer...

 

 

ok . so what does make an army a NL[or any other legion] one ?

That they are Chaos Space Marines, pretty much. (Which kinda rules out Pedro) The rest is fluff. I did pick them long before the Index Astartes introduced distinct rules for the Legions, you know.

[tyrannosaurus]

Why would anyone want to play Iron Hands, or Silver Skulls, or Saim-Hann, or Goffs, or Steel Legion, if they do not have distinct unit choices?

 

Thanks for supporting my point, they do play these armies because they love the background/look of the models. Are you telling me that if any distinctive unit choices were available these players would politely decline?

 

Sorry, I got the impression you were arguing that there would be no incentive to play as a certain variant army if there were no distinct unit choices available to them

 

@ Legatus, I'm not saying there is no incentive, if you really like the fluff and background then of course you might want to play that army. I love the Night Lords, but what is holding me back from buying them is that the army list would be exactly the same as the one I already have with my ECs. The difference would be a dark blue paint job, some wings stuck to their heads and no sonic weapons. That's not me being unimaginative, it's just the path the dex has forced chaos players down. Why would I want two of the same army? I might want two different chapters of loyalists though because they are so different to one another. The fall in sales of chaos seems to back me up.

 

There are no unit choices that make Night Lords/AL/WB/IW and any warband distinctive, not one, and it would be so easy to change this just by adding one special unit for each of the larger legions/cults/warbands. Even some decent background info for some of the warbands mentioned in the dex would be an improvement.

 

I'm lucky in that I get to field an army with distinctive weaponry, and I try to keep it fluffy by having all my troop choices as noise marines. Other chaos players have nothing to make their army distinctive, and are forced to field unfluffy, cookie-cutter lists in order to be effective.

 

If a loyalist marine player wants to make their own chapter, they can use the standard marine list, or they can choose to go with one of the chapters with special rules, characters and miniatures. Chaos players only get the standard list. I don't expect legion specific codexes, but some imagination/effort in the next dex would be gratefully recieved.

[Yogi]

I find it Ironic that the traitor legions are bitter and twisted and long for the good ol days .. and so do the people who play them.

[Sheff]

My Chaos army that I have now started as a Khorne warband back in 3rd edition, but has since grown far too large and strayed too far from Khorne, it's still a warband but is under the command of a minor Black Legion lord. My squads have unique paint jobs but are tied in to the black legion via shoulder pads etc - I'm pretty sure the idea was stolen from me for the newer codex!

 

@Yogi: There is a reason we collect CSM... :drool:

[Ashe Darke]

Hey, don't pigeon hole Chaos players, I'm perfectly well adjusted ;)

[Legatus]

I find it Ironic that the traitor legions are bitter and twisted and long for the good ol days .. and so do the people who play them.

I think it is more that they are longing for an improved status they feel they deserve. <_<

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To the OP:

 

Chaos is change... Chaos is a state absent of logic.

 

I direct you to that last part when taking into account how GW represents things for those "at the sharp end" of the hobby.

 

 

I assimilate and can understand what you say, but taking it as a whole you seem to glide through certains concepts without making a great point.

 

People only seem to want to play "their Legion" rather than a mishmash... Ok, maybe it's a fair point but really does it matter..?

 

If you identify with a single Legion, why would you want to mix and match?

Yeah, it might lead to some interesting army composittions but it is only your idea that it is cool.

[Walter Payton]

A friend of mine did a little test back when the current Codex came out. He made up a character, who was actually just a 3.5 Lord upgraded for a Daemon Prince. His character:

 

Ignored all saves in cc

Could fly

Struck at strength 7 on the charge, six in normal

Caused enemy units to take a morale check

Had a 2+/5+ save

 

He changed the names of the wargear and weapons. His character cost <200 points. The amount of people who came on saying, 'this is some ludicrously broken stuff right here,' was incredible.

 

The codex had to change. Is the emphasis on warbands bad-not necessarily. Is the lack of emphasis on the legions bad. Yes.

[A D-B]

I assimilate and can understand what you say, but taking it as a whole you seem to glide through certains concepts without making a great point.

 

It's a discussion on why people like what they like, and what value can be found in various concepts. It's not a thesis out to prove something.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I assimilate and can understand what you say, but taking it as a whole you seem to glide through certains concepts without making a great point.

 

It's a discussion on why people like what they like, and what value can be found in various concepts. It's not a thesis out to prove something.

 

I like that, of everything I added into my post, that is the only thing you picked out.

 

You obviously have a theory about why it is the case, people usually do when threads like this occur.

[Cale]

Personally, I'm with A D-B on this one. The legions are cool, but, for the most part, they're the past for Chaos. Pretty much all of the fluff I've seen (and I'll admit that I haven't seen a lot) has given me the impression that warbands, loyal to their leader rather than whatever legion they may once have been part of, are the norm for Chaos--not organized legion-specific armies.

 

I get that people liked the emphasis on legions in the 3.5 codex, and I get that the legions are cool, in sort of a historical sense. But, my vision of Chaos is one of individualist remnants of once-powerful forces, bound together by circumstance, practicality, and ever-shifting loyalties, and that vision is carried out well by the warbands approach in the current book--better than by the legions approach in the last book.

[A D-B]

You obviously have a theory about why it is the case, people usually do when threads like this occur.

 

Naw. If I did, I'd have mentioned it in firmer form. I'm interested in the discussion, because my own opinion is so mired in indecision. I like to think about all sides of the issue, though. It's messy, but interesting. Maybe lemonade can be made from lemons. I'm increasingly unsure, but I really dig learning the various ways people see the issue, and how it's divided by identity, what BL books are read, edition-preference, and so on. My only real aim for starting the thread was to get to see what people thought about it, and maybe help shape my perceptions on the matter one way or the other.

[Hellios]

Personally, I'm with A D-B on this one. The legions are cool, but, for the most part, they're the past for Chaos. Pretty much all of the fluff I've seen (and I'll admit that I haven't seen a lot) has given me the impression that warbands, loyal to their leader rather than whatever legion they may once have been part of, are the norm for Chaos--not organized legion-specific armies.

 

The problem is that the past of most of the Warbands comes from the legions and so they have the personality of their legion but with a specific aspect emphasised or their own little spin on it. Even when they have Non-legion members joining them they tend to change their personality and become more like the rest of the legion. Especially when there is a god involved. Hell sometimes Non-Legion marines gain control of legion warbands (Zhufor) and if I'm honest at least in that case the warband still seems very old fashioned World Eaters esk... not Khorneyish Black Legion. Or rag-tag Red Corsairs.

[chaplain belisarius]

The thing is-each legion shares certain genetic and personality traits with their primarch (word bearers are religious zealots, Iron warriors are paranoid, intelligent siege-masters, night lords are brutal killers etc) so im guessin a warband would consist of people from the same legion or if not, the majority of the warband would be from one legion and the rest of the warband would take after the predominant legion.

 

hope this makes sense, its just a few thoughts on the matter-interesting thread!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You obviously have a theory about why it is the case, people usually do when threads like this occur.

 

Naw. If I did, I'd have mentioned it in firmer form. I'm interested in the discussion, because my own opinion is so mired in indecision. I like to think about all sides of the issue, though. It's messy, but interesting. Maybe lemonade can be made from lemons. I'm increasingly unsure, but I really dig learning the various ways people see the issue, and how it's divided by identity, what BL books are read, edition-preference, and so on. My only real aim for starting the thread was to get to see what people thought about it, and maybe help shape my perceptions on the matter one way or the other.

 

The Legions were a fundamental aspect of who the Traitor Legions were, so I don't think a the Heresy could erase all aspects of that and so there would still be Legion-esque formations.

 

However, one of the fundamental aspects of the Chaos pantheon is the inherent bickering between the four Powers.

 

Reconciling that is a difficult thing to do, but really only matters to people who put Almighty Fluff first.

[Dammeron]

Those who like to play polyglot renegade warbands, those who like to play specific Traitor Legion forces, those who like to play splinter factions thereof: there is plenty of space and potential for a single codex, a single army list that is simple and adaptable enough to adequately represent them all and a variety of forces that exist in between. How? Simple options that are part and parcel of the core list. The existence of a lesser "lieutenant" character would be perfect for representing the leader of a Renegade warband, whereas mightier Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes could have the option of taking an otherwise Elite "Traitor Legionnary" unit choice (a replacement for the lamentably underbaked Chosen) as either elites or troops. Further upgrades could be applied that alter the core army list to represent the various Traitor Legions: upgrade a SINGLE H.Q. unit to a legion specific character (e.g. Warsmith, Dark Apostle etc) for a standardised points cost. Said character allows for particular adaptations of the core army list (e.g. in an army led by a Warsmith, all unit champions may purchase Bionics in addition to their standard war gear and all units may be upgraded with a "Siege Master" ability).

 

Daemons likewise could be returned to a fun and functional state as part of the Chaos Space Marine army list without diluting the appeal of their stand alone army list by simply allowing units of daemons and greater daemons to be upgraded with Marks of Chaos (NOT icons) and a VERY limited number of mutations/daemonic gifts etc.

 

The existence of a single Cultist/Mutant unit within the Chaos Space Marine army list could also work wonders, especially if it's well thought out.

 

It would also be very nice to see some well thought out, God specific vehicle upgrades.

[Walter Payton]

I think its a bit like this:

 

The Legions Questio

 

We begin with two different Word Bearer's hosts at each other's throats

 

Dark Apostle 1: I'll stab you in the eye :o

 

DA 2: Fancy some talent boy?

 

(Member of The Sanctified turns up)

 

DA 1: Well, we're Word Bearers, aren't we?

 

DA 2: Good point Marduk! Get him!

 

(Warsmith Honsou turns up)

 

DA 1, DA 2, Member of The Sanctified: Well, we're of Lorgar's geneseed, aren't we? Get him!

 

(Ignatius Grulgor turns up)

 

DA 1, DA 2, Member of The Sanctified, Warsmith Honsou: Well, we're Undivided aren't we? Get him!

 

(Marneus Calgar turns up)

 

DA 1, DA 2, Member of The Sanctified, Warsmith Honsou, Ignatius Grulgor: Well, we're Chaoticians aren't we? Get him!

 

Marneus Calgar opens can of whoop-ass, kills them all and makes Khorne his slave, then spits in Slaanesh's eye, drops Nurgle in a vat of Fairy Liquid, and beats Tzeentch at chess, causing him to implode.

[Ashe Darke]

The problem is that the past of most of the Warbands comes from the legions and so they have the personality of their legion but with a specific aspect emphasised or their own little spin on it.

Yep, this is how I do my army. They're not a part of the Legion as a whole. They came from there but they don't fight for the Legion and don't take commands from them. In many ways they're like a warband but I like to think of them as a bit bigger than that. A detachment that got lost in the warp 10,000 years ago and have just reappeared.

 

So while it's essentially a DG army it's not a part of a main force.

[A D-B]

The problem is that the past of most of the Warbands comes from the legions and so they have the personality of their legion but with a specific aspect emphasised or their own little spin on it. Even when they have Non-legion members joining them they tend to change their personality and become more like the rest of the legion. Especially when there is a god involved. Hell sometimes Non-Legion marines gain control of legion warbands (Zhufor) and if I'm honest at least in that case the warband still seems very old fashioned World Eaters esk... not Khorneyish Black Legion. Or rag-tag Red Corsairs.

 

Yeah, I think my eventual army will end up along these lines, too.

[the jeske]

I remember three Codices where DG equated to a Marine with the Mark of Nurgle. Maybe that's why I do not insist on a marine having Initiative 3 and "feel no pain" to be counted as one.

yes but even in the JJ dex they couldnt lose their DG/plague marine status . 2e it was marks 3ed it was marks , 3.5 it was marks , in 4th it was suddenlly icons and moster veteran members of legions like chosen or terminators were less DG/WE/EC [not to mention 1kson ] then grunts .

 

That they are Chaos Space Marines, pretty much. (Which kinda rules out Pedro) The rest is fluff. I did pick them long before the Index Astartes introduced distinct rules for the Legions, you know.

ok this means we will never agree . Personally I find AL/NLand WB [or IW] drasticlly different from each other both in combat tactics they use and their stand point on "faith"[chaos] etc. I will never understand [aside for being forced to fill in the void made by the not ready ork model range] why this codex looks like it does .

 

But, my vision of Chaos is one of individualist remnants of once-powerful forces, bound together by circumstance, practicality, and ever-shifting loyalties, and that vision is carried out well by the warbands approach in the current book--better than by the legions approach in the last book.

what visions does the new book give ? we can build a BL list [well multi god one] , but there is close to no fluff on the legions [and most of this is copypast from old dexs] . Per se if new dex trumps old dex the legions dont exist at all . I dont have the dex with me , but are all legions mentioned in the new one at all ? I remember only the BL page , the page about WB and how they are the only legion with chaplains . what is bogus becuse the whole "fluff" part starts legions dont exist anymore and then there is how legions not warbands capture hulks , how abadon gains the support of legions after the legion war [how can one get support from something that doesnt exist ?] . And long article how AL has cultists , infiltrates even sm chapters etc [what has nothing to do with rules as cultists dont exist in any rules outside IA]. So NL or EC or DG dont even exist , at least EC and DG are lucky enough to have unit choices for them.

[Legatus]

yes but even in the JJ dex they couldnt lose their DG/plague marine status . 2e it was marks 3ed it was marks , 3.5 it was marks , in 4th it was suddenlly icons and moster veteran members of legions like chosen or terminators were less DG/WE/EC [not to mention 1kson ] then grunts .

I don't like how the current Mechanic works, but it is what we got. We got T5 Havocs and Terminators. We got +1A Raptors and Bikes. We even have Khorne Havocs now.

 

 

Per se if new dex trumps old dex the legions dont exist at all . I dont have the dex with me , but are all legions mentioned in the new one at all ? I remember only the BL page , the page about WB and how they are the only legion with chaplains . what is bogus becuse the whole "fluff" part starts legions dont exist anymore and then there is how legions not warbands capture hulks , how abadon gains the support of legions after the legion war [how can one get support from something that doesnt exist ?] . And long article how AL has cultists , infiltrates even sm chapters etc [what has nothing to do with rules as cultists dont exist in any rules outside IA]. So NL or EC or DG dont even exis

The new Codex Space Marines does not mention the Mantis Warriors or the Space Sharks. I guess that means they have officially been retconned out of the 40K universe?

[the jeske]

I guess that means they have officially been retconned out of the 40K universe?

the way they were in RT or 2ed? yes. Remeber how they changed salamanders ? GW guys even said they were red haired , red eyed and ebon black skin the last 20 years and that they just "forgot" players about it [even in the armagedon book :rolleyes:].

[Sangneur]

The thing is-each legion shares certain genetic and personality traits with their primarch (word bearers are religious zealots, Iron warriors are paranoid, intelligent siege-masters, night lords are brutal killers etc) so im guessin a warband would consist of people from the same legion or if not, the majority of the warband would be from one legion and the rest of the warband would take after the predominant legion.

 

hope this makes sense, its just a few thoughts on the matter-interesting thread!

 

Warsmith Billip: Hey, Steve! Remember how we were masters of siege and defence, the imperium's best, champions among champions? We did that so well, let's change that!

 

I may play an Iron Warrior, Thousand Sons, Dark Angel warband, but I like to think that they use legion rules. If we still had the good old dex I'd be using the legion lists to represent this (the army used the rulse of whichever legion was more present, using the "limitations" to represent to what limit the force's resources had)

[Ju'kosian]

-- The Warband --

Chaos Marine armies are not organised by company, by Chapter, or by Legion. Space Marines have companies and Chapters. Space Marines and Chaos Marines both used to have organised Legions. Not anymore.

In the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy, the Traitor Legions have almost entirely dissolved. While the Black Legion - led by the chosen one of the Chaos Gods - has grown immensely powerful, even they spent centuries (perhaps even longer) getting slaughtered by the other Legions. In the Eye of Terror, it's not an empire of peace and mutual respect. Chaos Marines are killing each other, when they're not out killing the people of the Imperium. The World Eaters are the other obvious example of a Legion that was reduced to scattered warbands, by the actions of Khârn the Betrayer. But in 10,000 years, the reason the Black Legion is so powerful is because they are the largest, by far. The other Legions have disintegrated, breaking down through millennia of civil war, battles with the Imperium, wars with other Chaos Marines, and internal rivalries.

 

Word bearers are ruled by a council.

I'm pretty sure the 'thousand sons' have some sort of sorceror council on their sorceror planet.

Night lords were somewhat organised..

Black legion companies still cling around abaddon.. so they have some sort of central command..

But yes there are plenty chaos warbands, made out by champions, marines etc that seek to find their own glory and carve their own bloody path trought the imperium.

 

Also, if (when) a chaos primarch decides to get off his mutated behind and actually do something I'm pretty sure they will get enough support from former members off the legion who have since long begun a own warband.

 

There have always been rivalries between legions, and between the chaos gods..

I don't like the new ruling off the happy unified chaos family, I liked the ruling in the old codex more since it was more fluffy IMO.

Same goes for the current chaos Daemon codex.. A bloodthirster leading a daemonette army ? serious.. :)

Why not have a Rune priest leading the dark angels now ??

 

The current chaos marine codex is good as a chaos warband codex..

But there are still legion specific warbands out there and they used to have seperate rules..

 

I like the option in the loyal codex with the special characters; you can make a more fluffy chapter..

[Rain]

I think it also depends largely on what legion you play. Sure the Black Legion are likely to recruit misfits and malcontents from the other legions, but others like say, the Iron Warriors are much less likely according to actual canon. The IW are specifically stated to distrust other legions and to rarely cooperate with them, going so far as to forgoing participation in the 13th Black Crusade in exchange for a donation of geneseed to Abaddon from Hydra Cordatus. Oh and when the Iron Warriors wanted passage through a warp gate that was held by the Black Legion they just killed all of the Black Legionaries and took it, diplomacy be damned. Point is, they would not get good marks in "plays well with others".

 

See the thing is, I actually like the paranoid and exclusive nature of the IW, they don't like anyone else because they have one hell of a superiority complex and would rather not be sidetracked by the scuttling plebeians around them. Also they see themselves as betrayed by not only the Emperor but Horus as well and fight not for any particular cause but because they feel slighted by both their foes and there supposed allies, causing them to lash out in vengeance for wrongs that may or may not have actually been committed.

 

It's things like this that make the legion compelling to me, and these features disappear when the whole "warband" thing gets introduced, if other people want their IW's fighting in a warband that's fine, it's their appropriation of the fictional license, but to me that just never fit. As for the original companies no longer existing, this is certainly true to some extent for every legion, but I would imagine that many individual lords would still style their force as the X company out of a kind of nostalgia and sense of legitimacy.