Micetic Spore

[angronn]

angronn Posted Yesterday, 05:46 PM

The Deceiver can cause Fearless units to take (and thus, potentially fail) Ld. tests.

 

people seem to forget fearless units arent immume to LEADERSHIP TESTS.....they are however immume to pinning and MORALE tests....all 3 use your models ld value, but theyre completly different...

 

Indeed. I meant Morale check. As such, it would be required to fall back.

[Frosty the Pyro]

look guys, whetever or not you like the fact that the nid player is forced to death or glory or not it doesent matter. it cant move out of the way no matter how you try to swing this and therefore cant move out of the way of the several tonnes of metal that are screaming towards it. it doesent have an option because its not a normal unit (normal is hard to come by in 40k but you understand my point i guess) its the same as a drop pod, albeit a fleshy version of one.... drop pods cant be moved either under any circumstance (yea yea i know theyre a vehicle and all) so why would this tyranid version of a pod get that luxury?

 

There is also nothing that makes them death or glory, they have the choice not to, which ends with two models ocupying the same space. The whole thing comes up because there are no rules to handle this, the rules for tank shocking dont take into acount that immobile non vehicles are even possible. And to expect GW to consider how their new rules will interact with older ones is foolhardy. But as it stands, there are no rules for it, anything that you decide will be a houserule, be it forcing death or glory, or allowing the move, or simply not allowing the tank to stop over the pod, will be a house rule.

 

Also ruleings for monoliths landing on drop pods, say the drop pod is moved. As well as Mawlocs comeing up on them. So unless you want mawlocs to instantly destroy any imobalized vehicle its large blast touches, the polite thing is ro move the pod.

[Grey Mage]

fact of the matter remains that the spore cannot move under any circumstance, to quote from the book: A mythic spore cannot move for any reason once it has entered the battle.

 

so no, it cant be "moved out of the way" even be pushed out of the way, it cant move.

Negatory- if were being that anal about it, then we have to note there is a difference between "move" and "moved".

 

"Tom refused to move, staying as still as possible"

"The Ogre grabbed tommy by the hair and forcibly moved him anyways".

 

Are both correct uses of the term, what is not would be:

"Tom refused to moved, staying as still as possible"

 

One is optional, the other is not. The mycetic spore cannot "move" for any reason, but it can be "moved" because of other rules coming into play.

 

Otherwise we have two directly contradicting rules, and in a system as simple as this that cannot exist, thus, unless anyone else can see a RAW way to resolve a tank shock and meet the MSs rules, this must be whats the case.

 

IE- Ockhams Razor- this is the simplest solution, so it must be the right one :P.

[Demoulius]

you make a good point on the move vs moved part grey mage and ive reread the tank shock part of the rulebook again for this. with regards to ending in the place of the pod il quote a section of the book...

 

"if some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final posistion (it makes no difference whetever the unit is falling back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency"

 

so RAW it would indeed move, but is unclear whetever the unit itself moves or IS moved....it also mentions nothing about immobilze units. as far as i can see the pods immobilze rule doesent contracdict this, because simply the entry doesent say whetever the unit has to move or whetevers it moved.... no matter how silly it is.

 

in the spirit of the game however id say the pod would have to death or glory or die. sure the rules say it would be moved but using that as an escape method (whetever legal or not) to keep something IMMOBILE alive seems abit iffy to me.... even monstrous creatures die if they dont survive the tank shock, but if you dont attempt a death or glory your just "pushed aside" yea....awesome logic :P

 

but then again theres a great many things that dont make sense fluff to tabletop wise so i guess this is just one more of those things to be added to the list...

[Frosty the Pyro]

To be honest, the pod getting pushed is no less sensical than a carnifex (or Emperor forbid, a C'Tan) getting squished by a rhino. If I was righting the book I would have counted Monsterous creatures as vehicles for the purpose of tank shocks (thus requireing ramming instead of standard tank shocking) with AV of 10+half toughness. If they perform death or glory they do not get to make any saves against the hit, even invulerable (similar to how walkers are hit on rear armor if they fail a death or glory)

[Demoulius]

id beg to differ. have you ever seen the carnage a speeding car can cause? now inmagine the same carnage except increased tenfold cause were talking about tanks here, and tanks made from futuristic metals too. monstrous creatures ARE tough, certainly but the amount of kenetic force (is that written with a k?) the tank would produce would be enormous as well. and if a few ton weighing iron coffin just ploughed through half your body im guessing your going to have be made of very stern stuff in order to survive that....

 

lets not forget that most 40k vehicles arent made to scale. a rhino should be alot bigger (yes yes i know of the picture with the seated marines inside, its still not down to scale, i cant even fit 10 models on the top of the hull...) and the tonnage would probably be equal to whatever MC it is theyre charging. either way you look at it either side is getting hurt badly (tank if the MC kills it with a succesfull death or glory or the MC if it gets crushed to pieces)

[Frosty the Pyro]

C'tan are gods, Wraithlords are made of wraithbone which makes imperial materials seam frail, Carnifex have been known to survive extermanatous, The avatar and greater deamons are powered by lolwarp. Also have you ever seen what happens will a car hits a moose? The moose is more likely to walk away than the car, and even scaleing up for tank vs car, the scale up from moose to monsterous creature is bigger.

 

But now we are in a completely diferent set of arguments.

[DuncanSpence]

But now we are in a completely diferent set of arguments.

Agreed, plenty of examples of things with relative durability far exceeding expectations - eggs, glass, amoeba.

 

A mythic (sic) spore cannot move for any reason once it has entered the battle.

This does not imply that it cannot be moved - people have already mentioned drop pods being moved by Necron Monoliths.

 

What about lash? It moves models with no reference to the Movement rules for the unit.

 

Using the direct quote from the rules for tank shock, it is models that are moved not the unit. No reference is made to the Movement rules to state that they can only move their normal distance or falling back distance (in fact if the models are falling back they are specifically told to move again!).

 

Agreed, a comment in the codex would have been nice, but I don't see a problem with following RAW from the Tank Shock - the Spore gets nudged out of the way by the tank.

[Legatus]

The difference between Tank Shock and the Mawloc is that with a Tank Shock, models are assumed to move out of the way on their own. The Mawloc on the other hand pushes them aside, and it even specifically mentions immobile vehicles and how they are affected. They will take the normal damage from the Mawloc attack and are then pushed aside like everybody else.

 

The difference between Tank Shock and a Monolith is that for the Monolith there are no rules for what happens to immobile units. Under the normal deep strike rules it would not be the unit a deep striking model would be landing on that was indanger of suffering consequences, it would be the deep striking model that would suffer from landing on another unit. The Monolith has special rules that explain that it will not suffer any consequences as the units it would be landing on are making room for it. Therefor, if a unit was unable to make room, not that unit would now be in danger of being destroyed, the Monolith would now probably have to roll on the mishap table like everybody else. But GW instead extended his rule effect to immobile units.

 

Other than with the Monolith, we do have rules for what happens to units that don't move out of the way of a Tank. They are removed from play. The issue with the spore is that usually that is optional, in the form of a death of glory attempt, and instead of simply moving out of the way.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The difference between Tank Shock and the Mawloc is that with a Tank Shock, models are assumed to move out of the way on their own. The Mawloc on the other hand pushes them aside, and it even specifically mentions immobile vehicles and how they are affected. They will take the normal damage from the Mawloc attack and are then pushed aside like everybody else.

 

 

Actualy the mawloc rule just says if moved the facing is maintained, even for immobile vehicles, it never actualy says it will move imobile vehicles.

 

Is it a retardely hard ass interpritation? Yes

Is it equaly hard ass to not moving the pod? Yes

[Legatus]

It is not like the Spore is screwed because immobile non-vehilces are not accounted for in the Tank Shock rules. In the case of a Monolith or the Mawloc the target unit has no chance of doing anything to the deep striking unit. The rules explain what happens to them. In the case of the Spore being Tank Shocked, it can react in the usual manner with a "Death or Glory" attempt and even has a high chance of destroying the Tank. It is not some exploit the Spore is helplessly subjected to. The opponent risks his Tank by tank shocking the Spore.

[DuncanSpence]

I have to say I can often see both sides of the debates on B&C, but not this one - which is why I'm chipping in. And when I first read it I was all for Spore Slushees.

 

Monolith and, to a lesser extent Mawloc, rules show us that we must not regard immobilised units as immovable objects.

 

The difference between Tank Shock and the Mawloc is that with a Tank Shock, models are assumed to move out of the way on their own.

I can't see anything that would lead to that assumption, just as easy to assume they are shoved out of the way, or a combination of both.

 

...and it even specifically mentions immobile vehicles and how they are affected.

and Tank Shock specifically mentions how all models are affected they "... must be moved out of the way ..." and it tells you how far to move them - there is no reference to unit profiles to see whether/how far they move. A unit with Fleet could move 30 inches in the player turn and another can stand absolutely still, if they both get Tank Shocked in the oppenent's turn, they will both move by an amount dictated by the Tank Shock rules and not by standard movement or special rules. If the rule had said "... move out of the way ..." I would see a much greyer area, but it doesn't. It's the "must be moved" that seals it for me, indicating that this is the way the rules remain coherent if for some reason a Tank Shocked unit would not normally be able to move.

 

Finally, if the Spore is squashed by a vehicle ending it's Tank Shock on top of it, why is not squashed if the Tank rolls right over (through?) it and ends it's move in open ground beyond the Spore?

[Legatus]

Finally, if the Spore is squashed by a vehicle ending it's Tank Shock on top of it, why is not squashed if the Tank rolls right over (through?) it and ends it's move in open ground beyond the Spore?

Because the rules do not account for that situation. Usually the models are expected to simply step aside and let the vehicle pass, before assuming their former position again. Only when the vehicles comes to a halt where they were previously standing they cannot assume their original position and are moved out of the way.

 

"If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through, as if it was not there. (...) If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (...), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency."

BRB, p. 68, "Tank Shock!"

 

"If a unit that has been attacked by a tank shock passes its Morale test, one of its models in the vehicle's path can stand and attempt to destroy it rather than move out of the way (...)"

BRB, p. 69, "Death or Glory!"

 

So at least the Death of Glory rule refers to the models as "moving" out of the way.

[DuncanSpence]

"If a unit that has been attacked by a tank shock passes its Morale test, one of its models in the vehicle's path can stand and attempt to destroy it rather than move out of the way (...)"

BRB, p. 69, "Death or Glory!"

I can accept that, I didn't look for a cross reference there as I was only considering the options when the affected unit did not Death or Glory. However, once again it does not give any cause to reference the unit profile to see whether it can be moved or not.

 

It adds a shade a of grey to my opinion but I don't see it as being enough to override the "must be moved" statement from BRB, p. 68, "Tank Shock!"

[Legatus]

and Tank Shock specifically mentions how all models are affected they "... must be moved out of the way ..." and it tells you how far to move them - there is no reference to unit profiles to see whether/how far they move. A unit with Fleet could move 30 inches in the player turn and another can stand absolutely still, if they both get Tank Shocked in the oppenent's turn, they will both move by an amount dictated by the Tank Shock rules and not by standard movement or special rules.

There are plenty of instances where a unit will be moved without regard for their own movement distance, though. Falling back is standardised for all units, as is disembarking, which can also happen forcibly when the vehicle is destroyed. The Lash of Slaanesh is another example where a unit is moves regardless of it's own movement distance. Having to move a few inches out of the way of a lumbering tank does not seem to bee too much out of the ordinary.

[Demoulius]

i guess there are alot of arguments for both sides of this debate. perhaps we should e-mail GW about this or wait till its faq-ed?

[DevianID]

I think an important thing to keep in mind here is perspective.

 

There seems to be two sides here.

Position A: One side says that because the spod cant move, then if you tank shock on top of it thanks to not being able to move out of the way it explodes.

Position B: The other side says that just because the spod cant move, other rules can still cause it to BE moved. Precedent includes specific examples of the other immobile unit in 40k, the drop pod, being cited to 'be moved' when acted upon by a vehicle.

 

Position A is flawed, and Position B is not RAW yet because a spore pod isnt identical to a drop pod (though pretty darn similiar though!)

 

Position A is flawed because while the claim that the spod cant not move includes not being MOVED has merit, as soon as you tack on 'the spod MUST death or glory' or 'the spod is destroyed because 2 models cant occupy the same space' you have just made a house rule with absolutely no justification in the rules. If you go to a tourney, tank shock a pod, and tell the pod owner its destroyed because it cant move, you will have a big problem. Your opponent will rightly point out "Death or Glory is always optional via the RAW--Show me in the rules where it says I am destroyed if I dont death or glory."

 

As to people saying "Death or Glory is a viable option for a MC" I suggest some math. Assuming AV 12 front, you have a 58% chance to pen and 14% chance to glance. The glance has a 1/3rd chance to stop a non-extra armored vehicle. The pen has a 2/3rds chance to stop a non-extra armored vehicle. So you can expect to stop a vehicle 4.67% + 38.67% = 43% of the time. With extra armor its 31.3% of the time. So unless the vehicle is a minimum of 93 points without armor for a naked pod it is a terrible trade. With extra armor the vehicle needs to be 128 points to even be worth it. (An av 11 vehicle/rhino needs to be 78 points to be worth death or glorying if it doesnt have extra armor)

 

So basicly, death or glory isnt all that great, and to force your opponent to death or glory when he doesnt want to is not supported by the rules, and becomes cheating if you KNOW its not supported by the rules and make/bully your opponent into a death or glory anyway.

[Legatus]

As to people saying "Death or Glory is a viable option for a MC" I suggest some math. Assuming AV 12 front, you have a 58% chance to pen and 14% chance to glance. The glance has a 1/3rd chance to stop a non-extra armored vehicle. The pen has a 2/3rds chance to stop a non-extra armored vehicle. So you can expect to stop a vehicle 4.67% + 38.67% = 43% of the time. With extra armor its 31.3% of the time. So unless the vehicle is a minimum of 93 points without armor for a naked pod it is a terrible trade. With extra armor the vehicle needs to be 128 points to even be worth it. (An av 11 vehicle/rhino needs to be 78 points to be worth death or glorying if it doesnt have extra armor)

Er, first of all, every time the opponent considers whether or not he should tank shock the Spore he has to expect his Vehicle to be stopped/destroyed 40% of the time. Does that sound like a no brainer manouver?

Second of all, I am not sure how you calculated what points the vehicle would have to cost in order for death or glory to be worth the try. If the chance to stop the vehicle is 40% and the chance that the Spore is squished is 60%, then out of 5 times, the Spore will be killed 3 times while the vehicle will be stopped 2 times. Three dead Spores amount to 120 points lost, so the two vehicles that are destroyed in the process would have to be 60 points each in order for death or glory to be fairly balanced. And that is not even considering that the Spore has already served it's main purpose (delivering a squad) and that even if the vehicle is not stopped it could well have lost a weapon.

 

No, that the Spore is automatically required to attempt "death or glory" is not RAW. RAW does not explain the situation properly. The RAI reasoning for why the Spore should automatically be required to attempt a death or glory is the following:

 

- Models that are tank shocked are normally moved out of the way of the vehicle. The models are assumed to step aside and let the vehicle pass, they are not "pushed". Alternatively, one model per unit can chose not to move out of the way and instead try to stop the vehicle. If it does not manage to stop the vehicle, the model is killed, as it did not move out of the way of the Tank and it is now run over.

 

- A Micetic Spore has tentacles to attack but no own ability to move around. It's rules explain that it cannot itself move in any way. This leads to a situation that is not covered by the rules. A: Is it moved because that is the only outcome described in the regular tank shock rules? B: Is it destroyed because it could not move out of the way?

 

- However, the situation that the Spore is doing a "Death or Glory" attempt is covered by the rules, and if you assume B (spore is squished because it cannot step out of the way), then it might just as well attempt Deat hor Glory anyway. Doing this leads to a legal and routine resolution of the situation.

 

Basically:

 

Spore not doing Death or Glory: Not covered by the rules.

 

Spore doing Deat hor Glory: Covered.

[DevianID]

I divided the 40 point spod by the % chance to stop the vehicle, instead of the % chance it has to be killed in return. That error caused my points to be off, thanks for the catch.

 

So for av 12 the vehicle would have to be 53 points without extra armor, or 88 with. An av 11 vehicle would need to be ~40 points without extra armor. So, death or glory is about 50/50 versus rhinos and chimeras, making it more viable than I figured.

 

My issue is this: you should never, EVER "assume B (spore is squished because it cannot step out of the way)." No rule supports this, and adding this rule is a larger change to the game than having an external action (lash or a tank shock) move a unit that can not move on its own. As some have said, the action of being moved is not precluded by not being able to move oneself. So even if a spod being moved via a tank shock seems to be a gray area, a gray area ruling FAR outweighs a house rule that makes the spod get auto killed because it cant move out of the way.

[Legatus]

But the pod being squished for not moving is not a house ruled mechanic. It is the usual "Death or Glory" mechanic that other models can go through just as well. And the pod can too, definitely, if the player chose so. The slight alteration is that the Spore has no clearly undeniable option to move out of the way instead, so the decision of whether the model stays where it is and tries to stop the vehicle instead of moving is taken out of the players hands. Because the Spore cannot ordinarily move. So it uses the option where the model does not move from its position, which exists in the rules, by default.

[Grey Mage]

What happens to a pinned unit that is tank shocked?

 

Since the spore isnt a vehicle we should look at infantry rules right?

 

"The drawback of going to ground is that the unit can do nothing until the end of the following turn."

 

One would assume this includes movement... so the cases are related here- pinned/gone to ground units cannot move, just like the spore.

 

"Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take morale tests as normal)."

 

Seems to imply that a unit tank shocked will react as normal, despite the fact that it cannot move.

[Legatus]

The unit will also fall back when failing morale tests and counter move when assaulted. All things a Spore could not do. Being pinned merely takes away the player's control over the unit, but not their own ability to act. The Spore on the other hand is lacking that ability to act.

[DuncanSpence]

The models are assumed to step aside and let the vehicle pass

This doesn't appear in my printing of the BRB - so maybe we have different versions, can you give me the page column and line where that assumption is made?

 

If models are automatically destroyed if they cannot step aside and don't DoG, bring on the bikes and the Necron Destroyers ;) .

[Legatus]

The models are assumed to step aside and let the vehicle pass

This doesn't appear in my printing of the BRB - so maybe we have different versions, can you give me the page column and line where that assumption is made?

BRB page 69, "Death or Glory!":

 

"If a unit that has been attacked by a tank shock passes its Morale test, one of its models in the vehicle's path can stand and attempt to destroy it rather than move out of the way (this is potentially a rather suicidal thing to do!).

(...)

If the attack fails to stop the vehicle, then the tank shock continues as normal, except that the brave (but perhaps rather foolish) glory seeker is crushed by the vehicle grinding over him (...)"

 

That does sound like moving out of the way is usually done voluntarily, and the natural thing to do, except when a model is feeling lucky and thinks it does not need to because it can make the vehicle stop.

[DuncanSpence]

Thanks for the reference, I was hoping I'd missed something more specific as this sentence has already been pointed out.

 

Anyway, I'm sitll missing something about an assumption trumping a direct instruction, but I'm not getting my message across so I'll withdraw now before I annoy anyone else.

 

I'm not a Tryannid player and am never likely to be so the rule works in my favour ;).