Killing Blood Angels

[CloudRed]

i'd like to know how other people would deal with this issue.

 

My main gaming group only consists of 3 armies, Tau, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines.

 

I play Ultra's and we generally keep matches around 1500 points. Now i can handle the Tau as he's fairly new to the game and hasn't worked out his tactics all that much yet, but the Blood Angels i have issues with. Fast moving, flying over everything, and FNP on crazy guys with rending... what is a smurf to do?

 

Just to give you an idea of what he has that gives me issues:

2 baal preds

avg 6 Death Comp

Corbolo (Sp?)

 

fills in the rest with assault troops and 2x 5man tacs in vehicles

 

I dont have a variety of models yet (as i'm playing the painting game first) but i can tell you what i can field

LR

Vind

10 shooty terms

5 melee terms

20+ tacks

2 Preds/rhinos

2 Dreads

 

needless to say we proxy things here and there.. so if you know what comes in the assault on black reach i have 2 of each.

 

Thanks for the help guys!

 

(o... and as a noobish side note :drool: it hurts to ask but when viewing the wargear of a unit.. lets say a normal space marine tac squad, it says that they each get a bolter and a bolt pistol.. and ALL come with combat blades.. can they switch between them? do they get any assault bonuses? this will greatly effect how he plays against me... and effect obvious strategy)

[LardO'Blood]

I'd say get a LSS and 5 scouts to go in it, upgrade the heavy bolter on the LSS to a MM and give the scout sergeant melta bombs to deal with the baal preds.

If you have the parts to make a *white scars character that I can't remember his name* counts-as then I would encourage that, you could have the LSS outflank to rip apart one or both preds and maybe try and do something to the death company. Try and pound in the death company and any nearby units with the vindicator. Remember, FNP doesn't ignore AP or instant death so pie plating the death company will help!

[Kodanshi]

*white scars character that I can't remember his name*

 

Kor’sarro Khan by any chance?

[JamesI]

(o... and as a noobish side note ^_^ it hurts to ask but when viewing the wargear of a unit.. lets say a normal space marine tac squad, it says that they each get a bolter and a bolt pistol.. and ALL come with combat blades.. can they switch between them? do they get any assault bonuses? this will greatly effect how he plays against me... and effect obvious strategy)

If a unit had bolter, bolt pistol and combat blades, you could switch between them as you wish. But nothing in codex Space marines has bolter, bolt pistol and combat blades.

[BrotherAtrox]

Sell your Ultramarines and play BA? -_-

[CloudRed]

thanks for the LSS suggestion... but what about the rest of my army? i mean seeing as how hes all fast and most terrain is able to be completely cleared, how should a slow ish army (with an owner who can barely afford food and gas with college goin on let alone attack bikes, a LSS and scout) stand a chance.

[BrotherAtrox]

Your main issue is, in my opinion, the fact that you have a fairly slow army.

 

5th Ed. is not kind to slow armies, especially not the new Marine 'Dex - and especially not Blood Angels.

 

Land Raider - I never take these unless I can field two of them. They're big, they attract a lot of firepower, and against a BA army (multi-meltas on Bikes and Speeders?) you're asking for it to get blown up. Blood Angel armies are experts at taking out hard targets likes this. Save this thing for bigger games where it won't be "the troll".

 

Vindicator - Great piece of equipment, run it with the rest of your armor and keep it screened until it can hit his Death Company or Assault Squads.

 

10 Ranged Terminators - Good unit, but 10 is a bit much.

 

5 Melee Teminators - How are you using this unit? Honestly the BA are very fast, but we've lost a lot of our CQC prowess (at least until April ;)). Melee Termies should be able to handle most of what a BA player can throw at you.

 

2+ Squads of Tac Marines - Can't go wrong with tac marines. What is your typical loadout for them? Do you keep them in the Rhinos and try to assault?

 

2 Preds/Dreads - If his Baal Predators are giving you trouble, I'd put your Preds & Dreds on anti-vehicle duty. The Baal's weakness is its lack of range. Hit it early with your AT here.

[Demoulius]

about the FNP guys, only the DC have them. 1 blast of the vindi or some powerweapons to the face and hes out of your hair. charge him with your terminator squads (either will do) and thats that.

 

the baals and the assault marines are probably a harder threat to take care off. very fast, can move around easily and they are troops. as you only listed a small aprt of his list im assuming hes pretty loaded on them... il explain why:

 

2 baal preds

avg 6 Death Comp

Corbolo (Sp?)

 

if we take the DC marines out of the equation thats 350 or so points your talking about. depending on his troops he may or may not have had to buy new DC marines. with some more backup we can help you alot better. are his units upgraded? how many does he have? also may i suggest some more troops for your own army? you seem a little elite-heavy whilst you only have 2 troops, not hard to take apart tbh... if you want you can keep it cheap, a unit of 5 scouts can stay on an objective and just go to ground constantly for a 3+ cover save (or better yet stand in a corner so theyre out of LOS completly)

 

i agree with BrotherAtrox though.your army lacks mobility, in a game thats based on it since 5th edition.... the inmense boosts to transports to name but 1 thing. running as another. imho restrict yourself to 1 unit of terminators and use the rest to add troops and transports to your army, try a unit of vanguards if you can squeeze the points somewhere. theyre one of the most all round units of the codex, great at shooting (anything really) 2 base attacks and add in a powerfist and you can even tackle MC's (though its not recommended due to the pointcost of the unit)

[CloudRed]

lemme try to get his lists as close as possible

 

... this is coming from 1 month not playing

 

6 DC

2 baal

corbolo... whatever

2 normal assault squads

rhino/razorbacks

2 jump pack assaults with meltas

lemartes

 

since i try to proxy as little as possible this is what i run (mind you this isn't the list... merely what i have or can proxy)

LRR-

5 melee terms

2-3 tac squads melta guns missle launchers/las cannons

Vindicator

2 rhino's or 2 preds

10 shootys

 

so what should i do really to change the speed and security of my troops.. cause honestly hes all over my manz in a turn or 2

[Grey Mage]

Missile Launchers kill Deatch Company Dead.

 

Baals are always a headache, you could use some landspeeders/storms.

 

Using what you have as a basis, and assuming you have all HQ options, at 1500pts Id take:

 

Pedro Kantor- 175pts. *Or counts as*

 

7 Sterngaurd- Powerfist, 2x C-M- 210pts. *note this can be made from a tactical squad, with three bitz*

Dreadnaught- TLLC, HF- 145pts.

 

10 Tacticals- Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerweapon, Rhino- 225pts.

10 Tacticals- Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerweapon, Rhino- 225pts.

5 Scouts- Powerfist, Meltabombs- 105pts.

 

Landspeeder Storm- HF- 60pts.

 

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Whirlwind-85pts.

5 Devastators- 4x ML- 150pts.

 

1500pts. Gives you 4 scoring units, a good gunline with a mobile strikeforce and some speed. Against the tau/IG you can move forward to assault/knife fight range, while against BA/Nidz/Orks you can sit back and shoot them to peices. Use the Stormsquad as a wildcard... keep them moving, and only disembark long enough to assault a tank and get back inside- remember, a first turn assault from them on your opponents hammerhead can change the game, or say on his broadsides or a crisis team? Or a Baal? The gunline is of course Devastators/whirlwind/Sterngaurd/Pedro/Dreadnaught, though the Dreadnaught can move forward with the rhinos/vindicator as needed. Pedro keeps them excellant in assault, having as many attacks each turn as a charging assault squad, and adds to their antiinfantry firepower in good style. Dont forget about his str 10 pinning weapon too of course.

[CloudRed]

that helps a lot thanks!

 

but i've never used scouts before.. what role should they play in all that?

 

and how would i use that if we played in a heavily terrained setting?

[Grey Mage]

Well for example I gave, the landspeeder storm would work as your scouts "rhino" with wings. You can pop them out, assault a heavy weapon squad *like say enemy devastators or a baals rear armor* and take it out or atleast tie it up. Against tanks, if you get first turn you can autohit with three strength 8 attacks, thats all but gauranteed to destroy it.

 

You can also use them to take objectives, because theyre scoring- and the landspeeder can zoom across the board at 24" a turn to contest other objectives. The heavy flamer is great versus infantry, killing tau on a 2+ to wound and wounding marines on a 3+. Bolt pistol and close combat weapon is best for the nonseargent scouts I find, simply because it gives them 3 attacks on the charge.

 

In heavy terrain? GREAT! Use it to give your landspeeder cover versus most of your opponents army, if not all of it and enjoy going right over it whenever you need to.

 

Make sense?

[Ming]

Great ideas here.

 

Big thing for newer players - 5th edition codexi are based around named characters giving the army a boost in capability. Corbulo of the BAs is an example (carried over from 4th to 5th). Pedro is an excellent character from the SM dex if you end up be assaulted alot, because he makes your nearby troops inspired and everyone can be stubborn. Power weapons are great vs BAs since you need to hit them quickly to whittle them down, and PFs are not needed as much. Having a Tellion in the list might help you if you can quickly ID and take out opponent's force multipliers early.

 

Rumors on the upcoming BA codex - the BAs will be very nasty and even more all-assault focused, with some units gaining rending, furious charge, and more access to power weapons. These guys will be more difficult to beat at ranged combat, in part because they will have access to faster and more varied delivery systems. It will be a interesting spring and summer when the new lists hit the table. However, get ready for BA complaints (why can't I have this, why cant I do that) as they try to be more like "normal" marines. For all their CC focus, there are always things that keep them from being the blue swiss army knife that Ultramarines can be, so that they can be theemselves instead. On the other hand...wait till the BA's opponents start complaining. Undoubtedly something will be declared as...broken...

[CloudRed]

well i get the flying over everything... but i mean i have that ONE thing haha while he's dancing around the board with everything but 2 rhinos and 2 preds... making for a perverbial cluster:cuss of flying blades/bolters/meltas/kitchen sinks.

 

and 3 strength 8? where does that come from.. i know the melta bombs but wht else? (i'd check my codex but alas... in this great blizzard that hit the Keystone state its stuck in my backpack...in my car... under 3 feet of snow...

 

and i know that the whirlwind can hang back and at least be a pest... but honestly how good is it at killing things.. esp other SM's

[Grey Mage]

Three powerfist attacks m'boy.

[Possessed Marine]

bit late to the party, but here's my 2 cents... if you're having trouble shooting at a close combat oriented army, then maybe try beating them at their own game... I'd switch to chaos & chuck a bunch of berzerkers at 'em (or at least proxy them & have a few test games to feel it out)

 

Come to the dark side, I'll give you a cookie... I'll give you 2 cookies... we have pie... pie is good

 

oh, and by the way... bolter, bolt pistol & CCW are standard issue for Chaos Space Marines, meaning you get +1 attack in assault, one of the things we get to hold over the heads of the loyalists

[-Brother Sargent Tiberius-]

Simple strategy to win you see, the blood angels can only kill so many enemies before getting tired. Therefore, you send wave after wave of your troops to their deaths, and eventually the Blood Angels will get tired and fall asleep.

 

I agree with the other guy though, blood angels are much better. *cough-heretic-cough*

 

Wait for the new codex before trying anything... ;)

 

But seriously i find that long range weapons really hurt my army, dont let the death company get in close combat, but dont spend too much time on them. BA have long range and all around support, dont underestimate. Probably common knowledge but excuse me while i go and repent...

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

im suprised to hear you say BA giving you trouble. My 2 friends run BA and im an Ultra player we play 2k point games. To get an idea on what you will need to romp a BA army check out my list im posting it here. salamanders give me the hardest time!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=191172

 

Don't listen to these poor hopeless souls trying to turn you to the forces of chaos and what not. Courage and Honor Brother!

[Possessed Marine]

meh, don't mind me, I was a goodly amount into a bottle of rum when I wrote that, also, never faced BA before... basically, it was just an idea that came to life in my booze-addled mind that I thought might work

[CloudRed]

booze driven responses and respected and accepted haha as my lack of sleep has been making me delerious cause the wee hours of NE America is the only time i can check this haha

 

but thanks guys for the help.. truth be told, the real frustration lies is that this guy i've been playing is someone i've known for years... and thus he rubs it in twice and hard as anyone else.. so thusly i must.. repeat MUST be able to respond.. there are other things just seem to always happen too.. like so much terrain that deleted any shooting lane or rather the need for ranged attacks thats why i need ideas haha cause since i've been kinda... "starting"... i've snagged models to paint to kill time at college and i figured since ultramarines are known for being well rounded but a "shooty" army i decided to go all.. slow, lumbering, and RAWR angry shooty, but right after i started i realized the slowness was an issue haha but i didn't know how to go with it..

 

so budget permitting so far. near future should include a LSS and scoot squad.. any other ways i should run my army or little things i could get to change how it plays? I.e drop podding/teleporters or concentrating on special rules to change melee tactics or anything else?

[Possessed Marine]

actually the scouts in speeder might be a good idea, give one a heavy bolter, find someplace a bit out of reach, and shoot off some hellfire shells, the AP isn't so great but it's blast & poisoned 2, so everything touched by the blast is wounded on a 2+ and the rest of the scouts could have sniper rifles, hope you roll a bunch of 6's for rending

[CloudRed]

I hope i can get out and snag one soon as well as a scout squad.

 

so i'm guessing no telion for scouts? or is he really not worth it.

(and what is the RULE for him.. not the fluff)

 

now about the scout build, i have powerfist, and melta bombs... what else should i look into (aside from heavy bolter and hellfire/ snipers)

 

and againt thanks a lot this is really giving me ideas for a lot of other builds too... you guys are helping with understanding subtleties and how to work them into a sound Strat..

 

i'll post an organized list as soon as possible... thanks again!

[Captain Idaho]

Honour Guard eat Marine armies for breakfast and dinner! In a transport, nice and safe, they can counter attack anything the Blood Angels can throw at us. Of course it is best not to have mutally assured destruction, so I would prefer the Honour Guard to be cutting down their Assault and Tactical Marines as your own shooting culls their more intimidating assault units.

 

I've used Honour Guard plus associated Chapter Master to kill an opposing Command squad and Death Company accompanied with Mephiston and I can't imagine circumstances will change much with the new Codex. It worked because Honour Guard are very killy which meant Mephiston couldn't win the combat on his own and thus died easy when my Dreadnought made it into combat with him!

[CloudRed]

how many honor gaurd did you run? what was their loadout and what not

[CloudRed]

o... and i'm looking at my rulebook but i dont have my codex on me, so tell me what a LSS can do.. i know its a skimmer and gets 5+ if it moves all out or at cruising, and its open topped... but what all does that mean