The Night Lord Thread

[Archnomad]

So, basically using this as a little thought-box of mine (and hopefully a few other people, lookin at you Nihm) on Night Lords in current 40k. The paint scheme rocks, but one thing I didn't like was the lightning armour thing. I always thought it was painted on, but if it actually crackles and moves, then how difficult must it be for Night Lords to get a sneak attack going?

 

What're our thoughts on Night Lords in the current chaos codex? I mean, it's all well and good, with my plethora of 10 man squads in rhinos, termicide, and such. But then I go play my WBs, and use the same army in red (when I put the armies next to each other it's some kind of symetrical Red vs. Blue thing). Anyone tried using any of the other codices? I've been thinking of C:SMs with a Captain dude on a bike. That could be pretty nifty. But Blood Angels are also tempting. Space Wolves not so much, and Dark Angels.... lol...

 

Anyone got some lovely NL paint schemes or conversions they want to show off, go nuts :nuke:.

 

And any general Night Lordy discussion is also welcome :woot:

 

The main reason for this thread is that I really want to get back into my Night Lords (hell, I have a tonne of conversions planned for an Acerbian Warband) but I just can't do it with the current ruleset. That book's no fun. So come on folks, inspiration! ^_^

 

Thanks in advance

 

Archy

[chaplain belisarius]

Place a personal restriction on certain units? Field more raptors and bikers backed up by troops in rhinos, maybe take less heavy support and cult troops. You are the night lords and are all about swift, terror attacks...:)

 

hope this helped.

[Brother Nihm]

The paint scheme rocks, but one thing I didn't like was the lightning armour thing. I always thought it was painted on, but if it actually crackles and moves, then how difficult must it be for Night Lords to get a sneak attack going?

This has been the cause for a lot of debate in my local gaming circle. Conclusions were that this idea is one of those that sound really cool in theory but in fictional reality? not so much..

 

Alternate suggestions from there and elsewhere (the NL board) are that the 'living' Lightning could be from activated field generators, designed to scare. Chaos playing havoc (pun intended) with their wargear or even cloaking fields akin to that of the Predator movies (a stretch imho).

 

As for paint schemes and examples, there's a few of mine in my gallery. I've been on the slow crawl to a decent tabletop standard for nigh on 14 years - painting on and off.

 

If you want to see truly spectacular NL, take a look at Armored Walker's. I'll try and find a link for you. Edit, links ahoy: 1, 2, 3

 

There's also Terarin's which I only have saved locally.

 

There was also a guy a few years ago who had comic book'esque NL. Mmm again, only saved locally.

 

And last but not least: Khavor's GD winning NL

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The thing about the Night Lords is Konrad Curze.... Rapidly approaching Rogal Dorn in terms of being my favourite Primarch.

[Archnomad]

Fantastic search-fu Nihm, as ever. :(

 

Armoured Walker's Night Lords are very nice, and somewhat akin to my own (mine aren't so boldly edge highlighted, and the infantry aren't as well detailed as his). That's pretty inspiring work though :D

 

Never did like that GD model though...

 

So, my idea for my NLs, use gargoyle wings coming out of the power packs (similar to the possessed, but cheaper and with more varied wings). Thoughts on that? I think it'll look pretty sweet. And they're the right size!

 

Konrad Curze eh? I love him... could talk about him for days.

 

Also to the self imposed restrictions, to be honest I wish I actually had more of a reason to take raptors... they're just chaos marines with a hefty price tag, that can't score. I'm heavily debating using the SM book, or the upcoming BA book. I'll ask again, anyone got any experience with this method? :)

[tyrannosaurus]

On the lightining, to me it's something that the NLs can control on their armour. They creep up with their armour dark and then when they attack unleash the lighning on their armour, blinding whoever they are atatcking and scaring them s%&$less.

 

Codex sucks, NLs are just blue chaos marines. Massive shame because they're my second favourite army and I really want to buy some but there's nothing to make them distinctive. As to self imposed restrictions I'm more in favour of that than having an 'unfluffy' force. I play ECs and all my troop choices are noise marines. You'd have to take all 3 fast attack options [bikes or raptors] for them to be truly a NL army imo.

 

Shame that our codex is so poor that you have to consider using BAs.

[A D-B]

Where did the "Night Lords are all about Fast Attack choices" thing actually come from? It's not really in any of the Legion's background, so was it just 3rd edition trying to simulate the background of stealth, terrorism, and often attacking by surprise?

[Brother Nihm]

I'll ask again, anyone got any experience with this method? :)

I've been using C:BA to represent my Raptor heavy lists and no one has complained, quite the opposite. :)

Add to that I find that, while it doesn't capture the essence of the Night Lords, it does make for a rather effective list on the tabletop. That isn't why I did it originally though, it was my take/transition of an old Flying Infantry list I that used in 4th (2x10 Raptors + 2x10 Chaos Furies, Flying Lord, infiltrating CSM etc.)

 

The thing I like most about using C:BA though is the variety, which strikes me as highly ironic seeing as it's a PDF codex clocking in at 28 pages and comes with a builtin FAQ at the back.

[Brother Nihm]

Where did the "Night Lords are all about Fast Attack choices" thing actually come from? It's not really in any of the Legion's background, so was it just 3rd edition trying to simulate the background of stealth, terrorism, and often attacking by surprise?

I think that it's a mix of the first IA:Raptors (not the SM Chapter) article as well as the codex design decisions of 3rd edition that steered their fluff in that direction.

[Archnomad]

Mostly comes from our first ever raptor packs. And the fact that, well, fast things are scary. Sure, there's a terror to slow, indestructable, implacable, and horrifying (think halloween), but that's Nurgle's forte, not ours. Night Lords are more along the same Horror vein as Alien. "Where is it, oh god, oh g- *feedback through vox*". Admittedly, for me, this isn't just fast attack choices. My 3.5ed NL army was a unit of chosen in a LR, 2 infiltrating units, a deep striking termy unit, a unit of furies, 2 big, nasty raptor units, and a smaller anti tank raptor unit. I think anyway, was a long while ago now. But I am certain on three raptor squads and a land raider :P.

 

Codex: BA huh? I'll give it a gander. Flying circus sounds fun :)

 

How do you go about representing Death Company? Possessed? I wonder if Lemartes is passable as a half demon prince... hmmm (I want a big Acerbian style army for my next NLs, my last were all under the Talonmaster's wing). Interesting possibilities.

 

Any other BA tips and tricks while we're here?

 

Thanks folks :D

[Lord_Caerolion]

Where did the "Night Lords are all about Fast Attack choices" thing actually come from? It's not really in any of the Legion's background, so was it just 3rd edition trying to simulate the background of stealth, terrorism, and often attacking by surprise?

 

The only explanation I can possibly think of is to be the opposite of the 4 HS/1 FA Iron Warrior sub-list. As for the Raptors, it's because we had the first ones, which makes as much sense as telling Black Templars they need to have as many Land Raider Crusaders as possible if they want to be fluffy, or for the Space Wolves to have as many Predator Annihilators.

 

The thing is, that Night Lords don't really attack by surprise. They cause nuclear winters, broadcast horrific messages, and generally try to cause as much panic as possible. In my opinion, jumping out from behind some bushes causes less fear than letting your opponents know in advance, and watch them break down as your forces march in in plain sight, or drop-pod right on top of them. To put it another way, there's "BOO!" scared, and then there's "dear God-Emperor, they're coming for us, and nothing we can do can possibly help us!" scared. Night Lords are the latter. I leave the former to the try-hards of the Raven Guard.

 

As for myself, I use the Space Wolf list, and to be frank, I'm annoyed that I missed it before. It gives me Night Vision back, as well as "tougher" Marines, and WS/BS 4 Scouts. The only thing it lacks compared to the old list is WS/BS 4 Raptors, but I try to distance myself from the "Take lots and lots of Raptors!" idea, so I don't particularly care.

However, no Land Speeders, no Land Raider variants, pretty much nothing other than Scouts and Drop Pods that I couldn't take before. A limited Space Wolf/Night Lords list is so much more interesting and fitting (to me, at least) than using the Chaos list.

I'm just still hitting myself that I forgot about the Space Wolves until they were redone, as they still had the stuff I want even in their old version...

[Dan The Deamon]

Have people been pretty receptive to your Night Lords using the Wolves Dex? I thought about C:SM, C:SW and C;BA and while i have a pretty good imagination i couldn't pull the trigger and actually field a list.

 

I think reminding my opponent that my lord was Captain Sicarius and my dreadnoughts are ironclads would ruin it for me. Then again it's not so different from fielding my 'wraiths' as plague marines, or my 'flock' as bezerkers.

 

Anyways more power to you, I think my problem is that I fear change. :D

[Archnomad]

It's the WS3 Skyclaws that bother me. And the fact Space Wolves are my 2nd army, I don't really like the idea of playing my Night Lords with the same codex.

 

Had a read through Codex; BA now. I must say, a few things jump out at me. Death Company, these will work great in my Acerbian list (demons, ho!). I can have a Chosen Squad in Veteran Assault Squads, and regular raptors as troops. As well as Drop podding tactical squads (hurrah!). I get bikers, assault terminators, havocs, land raiders, preds, dreads, and I can get away with Dante being a Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon. Or Mephiston being a minor daemon princes ( i never saw Night Lords liking the 20 ft monstrosities, they have a bit more tact than that).

Anyone mind posting up their "BA Counts as" Night Lords list? Thanks!

 

Edit: 1500 point list I like the look of actually;

 

Dante (Lord with demon wep. These are my "chaosy" night lords after all!)

Corbulo (I actually had a surge of inspiration for something I wanted in my army, this is the only way I could do it without honour guard. A standard bearer! Gonna be the big one from a defiler I think)

 

3 Death Company and 3 Free Death Company (6 in total, possessed :D)

7 Veteran Assault Marines with 1 Power Fist on foot with rhino (rhino goes to tactical squad)

 

10 Assault Marines w/ Power Fist

5 Tactical Marines (literally just objective campers)

 

Land Raider

Land Raider

 

 

So, that's about the "scariest" Night Lord list I could think of. Any thoughts/opinions on it? :P

[Lord_Caerolion]

Have people been pretty receptive to your Night Lords using the Wolves Dex? I thought about C:SM, C:SW and C;BA and while i have a pretty good imagination i couldn't pull the trigger and actually field a list.

 

I think reminding my opponent that my lord was Captain Sicarius and my dreadnoughts are ironclads would ruin it for me. Then again it's not so different from fielding my 'wraiths' as plague marines, or my 'flock' as bezerkers.

 

Anyways more power to you, I think my problem is that I fear change. :D

 

Unfortunately, I have the problem of very, very rarely being able to play games, being both a Uni student, and the fact that my university and home have a mountain range between them (I live in Sydney, go to Uni in Bathurst). However, my group has been ok with it for the few times I've tried it. After all, it isn't that hard to tell what's meant to be what. The Marines count as Grey Hunters, Lord is a Wolf Lord, Termies are Wolf Guard, tanks are tanks. I haven't gotten around to adding some Scouts yet.

 

Yeah, the Skyclaws are a slight bother, but I only use one small squad of Raptors, so it doesn't particularly bother me.

[A D-B]

The thing is, that Night Lords don't really attack by surprise.

 

Yeah. That's one of the lore conflicts in the published material. In the Combat Doctrine, it goes on about their stealth and surprise tactics, but elsewhere, it talks about how they announce themselves far in advance, to spread terror of their arrival, and use overwhelming tactics to completely annihilate their enemies. I mean, in the Great Crusade, entire systems were supposed to surrender to them, upon hearing they were on the way. That's not really about being stealthy or jumping out of nowhere.

 

So I've always assumed they, like, decide how to act depending on the circumstances.

 

But again, yeah, none of this is about Fast Attack options. So it's still a weird mechanic that a surprising number of people run with. A classic example of Legion rules not really representing the Legion very well.

[Legatus]

I have allways assumed that they were given an emphasis on fast attack choices over Heavy Support because the Night Lords were said to usually employ excessive force and utterly anihilate their target, probably to set examples for other possible enemy factions. Fast Attack Choices are usually themed around units that are in the enemies face quickly and possibly smash him in HtH. That kind of action is probably best representing the "excessive/decisive force" aspect, whereas Heavy Support choices, which are usually more expected to take up a position and then wait for enemy units to enter their field of fire, are seen as more defensive choices.

 

Basically:

 

Fast Attack - Agressive, being at the enemies throat quickly, defeating him in HtH

 

Heavy Support - Defensive, assuming position and waiting for opportunities, ranged combat not as direct as close combat

[Dan The Deamon]

You guys are 100% right.

 

It's a shame that view isn't widely accepted among the gaming community. Every time I check out someone asking how to go about starting up Night Lords they are steered in the fast attack direction. Normally they are directed towards this by a non Night Lords player who is just going off what he remembers from 3.5, and the fluff in the current codex.

 

While we hold this fantastic fluff i think Gw finds it difficult to transfer it to the tabletop. Saying that the Night Lords hold more power in their name than say, the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers makes the latter two legions pale in comparison. While it is what they have written, they don't really back it up with the rules.

 

One of the main problems is that we play fair point games. Overkill is difficult when both players have 1500 points in their army. You can argue that 3 Vindicators (or three of anything) is overkill, but it's not really different from many other legions.

 

If we were to overkill vindicators we would be similar to iron warriors, just blue.

If we were to spam deamons we would be blue versions of the word bearers.

If we spammed infilitrate we would be a blue alpha legion.

 

Even in 5-7 turn games it's hard to really play fluffy. I can argue that softening up my opponents for 5 turns is rightly fluffy, because Night Lords wouldn't pick a fair fight. I could very well argue that 60 raptors + Land raiders charging turn two is just as fluffy, because it is considered quick and decisive. The problem is that our fluff doesn't transfer to the tabletop as anything special. All of our attributes and tactics on the table are generally shared by any military force.

 

Gw went with fast attack because it was a shtick codex. I have a feeling they will be sticking with the stigma as well.

[Legatus]

Perhaps the Night Lords are associated with Stealth nowadays because they do not have the full might of a former Astartes Legion anymore (backed when neccessary by the Army and Navy). They are said to hardly ever engage in combat with an enemy force that has a chance of fighting them. Remember, they are in it for their own pleasure of slaughtering helpless civilians, not for any particular military agenda. They prefer to attack weaker worlds or exposed enemies.

Back during the time of the Great Crusade they could afford openly traveling from warzone to warzone and smashing any opposition. But now that they are not motivated by the goal to conquer worlds and do not have their former strength they are a bit more selective. Stealth helps getting at that one defenseless world, or isolated enemy position, or small patrol, massacring their target, and then retreating before the enemy has the chance to bring his forces to bear.

Of course, when there is no strong opposition to be expected, they can be open about their buiseness, as they were on grendels world.

[Rain]

While we hold this fantastic fluff i think Gw finds it difficult to transfer it to the tabletop. Saying that the Night Lords hold more power in their name than say, the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers makes the latter two legions pale in comparison. While it is what they have written, they don't really back it up with the rules.

 

Actually GW has said the whole "people surrendering just from hearing X is coming" thing a lot. Just off the top of my head this was said of the World Eaters (because they are well, World Eaters) and the Iron Warriors (because if you don't surrender when they show up the IW will kill every living thing on the planet for inconveniencing them). As for the FA focus, it's basically what you said, the tabletop is not representative at all of fluff, it's like that for all legions. For example the Iron Warriors in fluff use far more human auxiliaries than astartes, and utilize artillery, magma bombs, nukes etc, however this would all be unfair on the tabletop so we are told to take vindicators. Night Lords use infiltration, comm jamming, and assassination. So--take raptors.

 

So people actually let you use new loyalist codices? I actually haven't played in a while because of my boredom with the current Chaos dex and the fact that I can't bring myself to play anything but my beloved Iron Warriors, oh how I miss third edition.

[Dan The Deamon]

As for the FA focus, it's basically what you said, the tabletop is not representative at all of fluff, it's like that for all legions. For example the Iron Warriors in fluff use far more human auxiliaries than astartes, and utilize artillery, magma bombs, nukes etc, however this would all be unfair on the tabletop so we are told to take vindicators. Night Lords use infiltration, comm jamming, and assassination. So--take raptors.

 

For iron warriors and other legions it seems like the transfer of fluff to tactics is a little more clear, or even done better. You guys are siege experts even on the offense. Heavy support and special weapons are a good representation of this. Tank Hunter and Siege specialist is a better representation of their vast skill, but the weapons are there regardless.

 

The problem with your statement is that raptors don't infiltrate, jam comms, or assassinate any better than a basic CSM (who has no skills on the table top to represent these things). Once a raptor reaches his his destination he is no different than an Iron Warrior marine, who really isn't special on the table top at all. The only difference in the two is that a raptor gets there faster, which doesn't equate in any particular way to the combat style of a Night Lord.

 

Anyways my post was written in good attitude towards Rain, and the matters on hand. I rather like to debate as long as it stays civil and polite, not that Rain wasn't. Sorry if i'm being overly polite. The internet, warhammer, and night lord threads tend to turn rather sour with loose communication. It's late and i'm just trying to articulate my thoughts clearly.

 

:cuss

[A D-B]

The internet, warhammer, and night lord threads tend to turn rather sour with loose communication.

 

Man, that's one of the hobby's great truths.

[Archnomad]

On the stealthy attack aspect. I think it's more along the lines of (as I said) alien. Example. Say we have (this is a silly example) 10 guardsmen in a forest, and three Night Lords. The Night Lords say they have ten minutes to run, then we will come for you. For the entirety of those 10 minutes the guardsmen run into all sorts of gruesome traps, and are driven to their wits end by the tortured screams being broadcast throughout the forest. Then, at ten minutes, the Night Lords announce they are coming to get them. The screams, and everything stops. The guardsmen start jumping at shadows. And the Night Lords attack them by stealth. Wiping one out after another until there is one broken, wretched individual left. Sometimes the fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all.

 

That's how I've always seen it. It's a matter of, you know they're there. You know they're coming for you. But you don't know when, or how.

 

And that's terrifying.

[Dark Mechanicum]

It was supposed to be a mixture of both, stealth tactics with broadcasting into a system who has arrived and let reputation take care of it. So I love that scenario you put forth Archnomad, sounds like something that they would definetly do.

 

Also on the whole raptor thing: From Lord of the Night you have Sahaal mentioning that he created the Raptor unit and it spread to other legions. Thus I think its supposed to be the entire raptor cult comes from the Night Lords. Which would be cool if they didn't suck on the table. But for quick in and quick out missions yea, this legion is definetly the kings of fast attack.

 

Also, I know there is supposed to be a night lords site but I cant remember the name of it for the life of me. So if anybody has it they should post it for all of us Night Lord fanatics.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As the informal leader of the board I'm assuming you're talking about, I, Caerolion, the Dark Saint of the Night Lords, would like to invite you all to the site. New members are always appreciated. PM me for details.

 

...Well, I'm not the moderator, but in the stories we've got going, Caerolion is something of a figurehead. No real position of power, but the backing of several other Lords.

 

So come, brothers. Join the Bitter Crusade. Together, let us give the Traitor-Emperor a reason to fear the Night!