Walter Payton Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I have seen a few debates about this. Basically, are the GK incorruptible, and therefore CANNOT fall to the dark gods, or is it just that they haven't yet. Your thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabsnikk Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 The GK are pretty incorruptible, none have ever fallen to Chaos permanently as far as we know. SPOILER ALERT - from GK novel Hammer of Daemons - Highlight to read However, there is the one case of Justicar Alaric from the GK novels, who in Hammer of Daemons is captured by a Khorne warband, has his armour replaced by a collar of khorne (to prevent him using his psychic abilities) and forced to fight as a gladiator in the arenas on a khorne daemon world. As I understand it he blacked out for a couple of months as the bloodlust consumed him but managed reawaked from his frenzied state near the end of the book. He was also posessed by a Tzeentch daemon whilst wearing the collar of khorne which mean that he had no psychic defense against it, but he managed to exorcise it by proving its words to be false. Thats about all the evidence there is of a GK coming close to being lost by the enemy as far as I know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2281935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nephilim Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 The GK are pretty incorruptible, none have ever fallen to Chaos permanently as far as we know. SPOILER ALERT - from GK novel Hammer of Daemons - Highlight to read However, there is the one case of Justicar Alaric from the GK novels, who in Hammer of Daemons is captured by a Khorne warband, has his armour replaced by a collar of khorne (to prevent him using his psychic abilities) and forced to fight as a gladiator in the arenas on a khorne daemon world. As I understand it he blacked out for a couple of months as the bloodlust consumed him but managed reawaked from his frenzied state near the end of the book. He was also posessed by a Tzeentch daemon whilst wearing the collar of khorne which mean that he had no psychic defense against it, but he managed to exorcise it by proving its words to be false. Thats about all the evidence there is of a GK coming close to being lost by the enemy as far as I know. Grabsnikk beat me to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2281974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Stated in the codex on page 7, no Grey Knight has ever turned in battle or fallen to Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2282155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 In a world of arbitrary fiction, anything is possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2282498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Yeah, and as mentioned, "has never" does not equal "will never". I guess the question is more of "what would it take" in that regard. What if Chaos pulled off a huge, huge deception. Not necessarily corrupting the GK, but manipulating them in a long term manner. Setting aside for the moment that if you think about it, there is little difference between the emperor and a daemon (as he is sustained by constant psyker sacrifice and exists primarily in the warp (if at all)) - it would seem that the GK are open to doing more or less anything if they are sure it is battling chaos for the emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2282540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Yeah, and as mentioned, "has never" does not equal "will never". I guess the question is more of "what would it take" in that regard. What if Chaos pulled off a huge, huge deception. Not necessarily corrupting the GK, but manipulating them in a long term manner. Setting aside for the moment that if you think about it, there is little difference between the emperor and a daemon (as he is sustained by constant psyker sacrifice and exists primarily in the warp (if at all)) - it would seem that the GK are open to doing more or less anything if they are sure it is battling chaos for the emperor. Chaos manipulating the GK is always possible; Tzeentch loves his insanely convoluted plots after all, and Khorne probably likes the GKs for how much bloodshed they cause, even if a lot of it is his own followers dying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2282701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Yeah, and as mentioned, "has never" does not equal "will never". I guess the question is more of "what would it take" in that regard. Despite my general dislike of the Grey Knight series, I think Ben Counter answered this very well - the price required for a Grey Knight to willingly turn to Chaos is for Chaos to be utterly destroyed, by which point there is no longer any Chaos to turn to. In other words, it's paradoxical - the idea that "every man has his price" is still true, but the price for a Grey Knight is so high that none of the Chaos Gods (alone or together) can pay it. What makes it paradoxical is that Khorne feeds off destruction - as long the Grey Knights fight against him, he will continue to exist. But as long as he exists, the Grey Knights are invulnerable to his temptations. Something similar is true of the other Chaos Gods - their presence is what allows the Grey Knights to be tempted, but it is also what makes the Grey Knights invulnerable to their temptation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2282876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
happybounce Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 I could be remembering this wrong, but don't they have some kind of mind barrier that basically kills them if they ever turn to chaos? Anyways, the idea of warriors so holy that daemons can't even stand their presence turning to chaos is plain silly, and it makes for lazy storytelling. ANY marine turning to chaos is a massive deal, a huge loss to the imperium, and so on; making that marine a Grey Knight simply because they are the best and least corruptable doesn't make for a compelling story, it makes the author a lazy writer. I don't know why that guy is and I haven't read any of his books, but it strikes me as weak sauce. I guess part of the reason I love the 40k universe so much is that almost everything is questionable, anything can happen, and there are almost no absolutes- which makes those ever so rare absolutes (such as the Grey Knights and their incorruptability) so much cooler. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2283038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemarinepanda Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Yeah, and as mentioned, "has never" does not equal "will never". I guess the question is more of "what would it take" in that regard. What if Chaos pulled off a huge, huge deception. Not necessarily corrupting the GK, but manipulating them in a long term manner. Setting aside for the moment that if you think about it, there is little difference between the emperor and a daemon (as he is sustained by constant psyker sacrifice and exists primarily in the warp (if at all)) - it would seem that the GK are open to doing more or less anything if they are sure it is battling chaos for the emperor. that kind of sounds like your going off of the souldrinkers series. tzeentch tricked them into believing the emperor was just a rotting corpse and they saw a new emperor. he gave them 'gifts' that convinced them that the emperor favored them. ps try reading the books there great stories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2283104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 I could be remembering this wrong, but don't they have some kind of mind barrier that basically kills them if they ever turn to chaos? They are mentally conditioned/altered as part of their training, but you might be confusing that with the Mark of the Wulfen, which is Space Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2283206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Please don't pay much heed to the Grey Knights series. Conan, ah, I mean Alaric, fighting in gladiator arenas. A cimmerian would never fall to chaos. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2283208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I could be remembering this wrong, but don't they have some kind of mind barrier that basically kills them if they ever turn to chaos? They are mentally conditioned/altered as part of their training, but you might be confusing that with the Mark of the Wulfen, which is Space Wolves. No he's referring to GK's focussing their psychic powers inwardly to cause defensive barriers/protection against Chaos. In the GK omnibus it's discussed elaborately. People love to bash Ben Counter but they act unfairly I think. The last novel was far from perfect but the first 2 especially the first was excellent. And he did use some stuff that was most excellent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2284354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Even the exorcists seems to be incorruptible (1% of chance is mentioned, a margin that researchers think that can be eliminated completely) so I think for a GK it would be much, much more difficult. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2284502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor =D= Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 What makes it paradoxical is that Khorne feeds off destruction - as long the Grey Knights fight against him, he will continue to exist. But as long as he exists, the Grey Knights are invulnerable to his temptations. Something similar is true of the other Chaos Gods - their presence is what allows the Grey Knights to be tempted, but it is also what makes the Grey Knights invulnerable to their temptation. Whats funny about that Tyrak is that Khorne's alure lies in the love of destruction, the thrill of bloodshed, and the delight in victory no matter the cost. Grey knights are conditioned and trained to have no love for battle, no delight in it so Khorne has no grip on them. Grey Knights are cold calculating and pure, it'd have to be something galaxy shattering to corrupt them. Or thats how I see it anywho. Truth is Tzeench would be most likely to catch one. We all know he's been trying with Sturn for some time now.... =]D[= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2285093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Whats funny about that Tyrak is that Khorne's alure lies in the love of destruction, the thrill of bloodshed, and the delight in victory no matter the cost. Grey knights are conditioned and trained to have no love for battle, no delight in it so Khorne has no grip on them. Grey Knights are cold calculating and pure, it'd have to be something galaxy shattering to corrupt them. Or thats how I see it anywho. Doesn't Khorne feed off of destruction, bloodshed etc. regardless of whether or not those causing it are his followers or not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2285124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakehunter52 Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 A point that hasn't been brought up yet is Horus. Yes, in 10000 years, not a single GK has fallen but in a few short years, half the primarchs fell. So what does this mean exactly, that the GK have only been able to achieve this record because of a lack interest of the gods or because the Emperor learned from his fateful miscalculation and corrected it through the GKs. There really can't be a direct comparison made. However, faith has been shown to be an effective tool against the chaos powers, turning aquilas into protective objects, words into deadly force and even the essence of the Emperor, the astronomicon, into a protective barrier and guiding light. Faith means worship and worship is religion. Possibily the Emperor reversed his verdict on religion after the Heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2285146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Grey Knights falling to Chaos is: http://www.daimyo-shi.net/heresystamp.png Oh and it's also impossible. :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2285403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 No, but it makes for great trolling material on any 40k forum. Other good ones are 'Chaos Tau' and the time-honoured 'Female Space Marines'. Don't feel too special, its a monthly ritual both Warseer and B&C go through B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2285463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magua Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Saying "No Grey Knight will ever fall to Chaos because no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos" is a lot like saying "No Space Marine will fight their brother because no Space Marine has ever fought their brother" right before Isstvan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2285539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Saying "No Grey Knight will ever fall to Chaos because no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos" is a lot like saying "No Space Marine will fight their brother because no Space Marine has ever fought their brother" right before Isstvan. The difference is it has said: No Grey Knight has ever fallen to chaos. Well something similar to that, which is basically the same as saying 100% incorruptible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2286122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Saying "No Grey Knight will ever fall to Chaos because no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos" is a lot like saying "No Space Marine will fight their brother because no Space Marine has ever fought their brother" right before Isstvan. Very true. It's also a lot like saying "No Chaos God will ever serve the Emperor because no Chaos God has ever served the Emperor", or No Crisis Suit will ever dance the tango with a Necron Lord because no Crisis Suit has ever danced the tango with a Necron Lord". Despite the whole "grimdark, unsure of anything" set-up, it is safe to take some statements at face value. :huh: EDIT - spelling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2286190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor =D= Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 or No Crisis Suit will ever dance the tango with a Necron Lord because no Crisis Suit has ever danced the tango with a Necron Lord". :P :lol: :lol: I love you sometimes Tyrak... :lol: :lol: :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2286526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Saying "No Grey Knight will ever fall to Chaos because no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos" is a lot like saying "No Space Marine will fight their brother because no Space Marine has ever fought their brother" right before Isstvan. Not really. Some of the Primarchs had violent disagreements, even coming to blows, before the events of the Heresy. Many of them hated eachother passionately before the two sides emerged. Anyway, human beings have been betraying and waging war on eachother since forever, so not really either surprising or beyond possibility (as the Heresy proved). Very true. It's also a lot like saying "No Chaos God will ever serve the Emperor because no Chaos God has ever served the Emperor", or No Crisis Suit will ever dance the tango with a Necron Lord because no Crisis Suit has ever danced the tango with a Necron Lord". Despite the whole "grimdark, unsure of anything" set-up, it is safe to take some statements at face value. msn-wink.gif No, no Chaos God would ever 'serve' the Emperor, because the Chaos Gods see all mortals as pawns. The Emperor's a big pain the ass for them, because he A: won' die, even after they corrupted half his Legions to destroy him and B: he's holding the Webway tunnel under the Palace closed with his mind alone. Anyway, you can't really say a gestalt sentient ball of emotions would ever 'serve' anything. They're capricious, unfathomable entities. Can't be destroyed, and they're not technically alive either, so what exactly would the Emperor hold over them? If by 'tango' you mean have an epic bitch-slap contest (which ends with the Lord's warscythe impaling the Crisis suit in the chest), then yeah, happens all the time to me. Bloody Destroyer Lords grrr... SPOILER: It's just one of the few absolutes in 40k kids. Like how the Tyranids never negotiate, or the Necrons never speak. And to be fair, Counter well and truly explored the depths to which a Grey Knight can be dragged down into Chaos, and still emerge pure. 'Hammer of Daemons' pretty comprehensively broke every rule about the 666th Chapter (he didn't die in combat with Daemons, they managed to take all his armour+weapons, plus neutralise his psychic defenses with a Khornate collar, and made him fight for them). The answer Counter gives after all this is 'no, because Grey Knights want for nothing save the annihilation of Chaos, which is something no Daemon can grant, thus making them impossible to sway'. Alaric still went insane, still killed for Chaos (although arguably the alternative was to die pointlessly, so it was more about survival), but in the end he destroyed his captors and triumphed. Now, I'm going to lurk around the general forums and see if our monthly 'Female Marines' thread has popped up yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2286585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Very true. It's also a lot like saying "No Chaos God will ever serve the Emperor because no Chaos God has ever served the Emperor", or No Crisis Suit will ever dance the tango with a Necron Lord because no Crisis Suit has ever danced the tango with a Necron Lord". Despite the whole "grimdark, unsure of anything" set-up, it is safe to take some statements at face value. ;) No, no Chaos God would ever 'serve' the Emperor, because the Chaos Gods see all mortals as pawns. The Emperor's a big pain the ass for them, because he A: won' die, even after they corrupted half his Legions to destroy him and B: he's holding the Webway tunnel under the Palace closed with his mind alone. Anyway, you can't really say a gestalt sentient ball of emotions would ever 'serve' anything. They're capricious, unfathomable entities. Can't be destroyed, and they're not technically alive either, so what exactly would the Emperor hold over them? . . . It's just one of the few absolutes in 40k kids. Like how the Tyranids never negotiate, or the Necrons never speak. This is the point of my little exercise. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192226-grey-knights-falling-to-chaos-possible-or-not/#findComment-2286638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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