The best list I've (personally) yet fielded.

[thade]

Alright, so, tonight on a whim I took a list I'd been using and dropped all the dreads and an IC and went with as many tactical marines as possible (inspired by a few recent threads on here). Here is the list I fielded:

 

HQ: Librarian in TDA w/ Storm Shield, Avenger and Gate

 

Troops:

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Flamer, HB, Rhino

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Flamer, HB, Rhino

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Flamer, PC, Rhino

- Scouts x5, Telion, 3 snipers, ML

- Scouts x5, PF, 2x shotguns, 2x CC weaps

 

Elite:

Tac Termies x5, PS, CML

 

Heavy:

- Dev Squad x10, 4 ML

- Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

- WW

 

My opponent tonight was an Ork player,

- biker warboss w/ five bike nobs

- a squad of 10 lootas

- Big Mek w/ custom force field and his own unit of nobz in a Trukk

- squad of boyz in a giant truck thing with front armor 14 and a rolling pin that does d6 hits when he rams a unit of troops

- squad of boyz in a trukk

- squad of boyz on foot

- 2 deff koptas

 

I won't do a play by play, but I will say I had an awesome time. The sheer amount of fire power I was able to dish out was altogether new to me, and the amount of missiles was very, very nice. Avenger didn't really impress me, esp. against Orks (I'd almost rather have the libby take MotA I think as he'll inevitably end up in assault; my club does allow Librarians to Gate out of combat though). I crippled a trukk, vaprized another, and killed a LOT of boys before they got anywhere near me.

 

The whirlwind - which in previous games had been very good about forcing Pinning checks and killing large numbers - was remarkably ineffective against this savvy ork player that kept his boys at a wide spread, minimizing template damage. The highlight of the game for me was chewing a 20 ork boyz squad down to 10 orks with fire power then charging them with the five-man scout squad (the assault-geared one). Since I could only afford five (they were just a random pic with 90ish points left) I stuck them in with the Dev squad and they hung out to counter-charge...and they did. In they want and on the charge they killed half, then endured for two turns, in the last assault his power klaw alone vs my power fist alone...and they killed each other outright. Funny stuff. That 90pts prevented my dev squad from getting pulled out of their very nice positions in a high ruin.

 

Telion also really shined in this battle, capping a power klaw, the ork with the custom force field, and two orks with big shootas. The terminators failed spectacularly when I rolled several 1s on four 2+ armor saves (all at once; very disappointing).

 

What would I change? I'd dump the WW and possibly go with (ready for it) another chunk of CC-geared scouts (or just to up the numbers on the one). Or I might drop the Librarian and instead go with Cassius, then drop the scouts and upgrade to 6-marine vanguard (a couple of power swords and a storm shield or two) to cover the devestators/my firebase. The WW will make a very nice fourth Rhino...possibly for the Vanguard to hide in until it's needed. Not sure if I'll have the points anywhere to make it a Razorback, but I'm not sure that's necessary either.

 

Well there it is. I have a tournie coming up in two weeks and this is by far the most competitive list (I feel) I've yet fielded. What's it missing? What are it's glaring weaknesses? What do you think I'm doing wrong; what would you do differently?

[rat of vengence]

I would find the points to bring a Landspeeder Storm for your combat scout squad. Maybe drop 2 dev marines and the seige shield to start with? 60 points for an outflanking opentopped scout ride with a heavy flamer. Lovely... :lol:

 

RoV

[waaanial00]

Telion also really shined in this battle, capping a power klaw, the ork with the custom force field, and two orks with big shootas.

 

Thats damn impressive,

 

- Klaw Nob 2 wounds, depending on how you play it that should have taken you at least 2 turns

- Kff Mek 2 wounds, assuming that the player hadnt put 4+ save on it (and you didnt rend) that shouldnt have died quickly

- 2 Big shoota boys, well they are boys after all

 

Thats very impressive, were you playing that you could stack wounds where you wanted them or were you still allowing for wound allocation rules which means that you cant stack wounds on the same unit (despite the wording of Telions rules there is nothing that says you can break wound allocation rules).

 

In terms of competativeness I dont like the Heavy Bolters in the Tactical Marines, the Missile Launcher just performs better whenever I play them. The scout sniper unit is far too small, Telion might carry this unit but the rest of it feels like bulk. I am still not convinced that snipers are worth taking but I am sure that they are not worth taking in units less than 10.

 

I would exchange Gate for something else as well, I dislike this power and there are more than enough other options which make him more flexible.

 

Though its got to be said that the Ork players list is a bit all over the place, not at all what I would have played. Oh and the big trukk thing is a Battlewagon and the rolling pin is called a Deathroller, aiding in the learning curve.

 

Wan

[spjaco]

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a "WW"?

Sounds like a very nice list. Strangely whenever my Terminators go up against Orks they always get creamed.

[waaanial00]

WW stands for Whirlwind

 

Also never worry about ignorance, without it we wouldnt appreciate knowledge :)

 

Wan

[Brother Xeones]

My only real gripe is that you don't have any good way to deal with AV13+ without getting into CC --other than the Vindi anyway. What do you plan to do against Landraiders? Let's face it: In a tournament, you'll be seeing LRs a plenty.

[thade]

Telion also really shined in this battle, capping a power klaw, the ork with the custom force field, and two orks with big shootas.

 

Thats damn impressive,

 

- Klaw Nob 2 wounds, depending on how you play it that should have taken you at least 2 turns

- Kff Mek 2 wounds, assuming that the player hadnt put 4+ save on it (and you didnt rend) that shouldnt have died quickly

- 2 Big shoota boys, well they are boys after all

 

Thats very impressive, were you playing that you could stack wounds where you wanted them or were you still allowing for wound allocation rules which means that you cant stack wounds on the same unit (despite the wording of Telions rules there is nothing that says you can break wound allocation rules).

We played the legal-way :) where I get to allocate wounds but have to do so legally, so in one turn I wounded the nob and killed a boy, second turn I killed the nob and another boy, and it was late in the game and after an assault the Mek had only one wound left...pop.

 

In terms of competativeness I dont like the Heavy Bolters in the Tactical Marines, the Missile Launcher just performs better whenever I play them. The scout sniper unit is far too small, Telion might carry this unit but the rest of it feels like bulk. I am still not convinced that snipers are worth taking but I am sure that they are not worth taking in units less than 10.

I enjoyed the HBs and, as I only have four MLs (which were in the Dev Squad) that's what I had to play with. Typically whenever I fire a Tac squad's ML at a vehicle I feel like I'm wasting a ton of it's fire power (as only the ML has an effect)...but in last night's game my tac squads always fired at infantry and thus always brought their full amount of effectiveness to bear on every target. Also, as the HB hits on rolls alone and uses no template, his habit of spreading out his orks didn't hurt my firepower that much. The dev squad had 4 MLs so I didn't feel too badly about "wasting" the bolters when it fired at vehicles (and it creamed those vehicles, it was nice); I switched them to firing at infantry later in the game and those bolters were quite useful.

 

One thing I really I wish I had found the points for last night (and I think I'll try now) is some melta weaponry; I had nothing that could punch through a Land Raider (or in last night's case, the front arc of the Battlewagon).

 

Certainly Telion is worth the cost of the sniper unit alone IMO but the constant Pinning checks the unit forces are very nice, and I can make either the ML or an actual Sniper Rifle BS 6 with his powers, which often guarantees me a wound on a Wraithlord or a krak missile into a vehicle.

[Fintan]

Certainly not the most competitive list out there but hell, it's a very fluffy Marine list! The majority of your points are tied up in your troops with a HQ I could see leading a small-scale battle and your support elements don't dominate the battlefield. In short, I love it and if you enjoyed playing it you should definitely take it to a tournament. You'll struggle against competitive lists but I imagine the most fun battles in 40k are played on the bottom tables where people aren't carried by special characters and the 1st Company.

[Giga]

@ thade

 

Are you tailoring this list to fight orks, or are you making an all-comers?

 

I'll assume you're doing allcomers;

HQ: Librarian in TDA w/ Storm Shield, Avenger and Gate

 

Troops:

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Flamer, HB, Rhino

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Flamer, HB, Rhino

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Flamer, PC, Rhino

- Scouts x5, Telion, 3 snipers, ML

- Scouts x5, PF, 2x shotguns, 2x CC weaps

 

Elite:

Tac Termies x5, PS, CML

 

Heavy:

- Dev Squad x10, 4 ML

- Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

- WW

HBs on tacticals aren't all that hot. Missile launchers or multimeltas are both better, I think.

 

I can't see so few scouts doing much, either, except being heavy flamer bait. 3 snipers will on average hit 1-2 times and get 0-1 wounds. A BS6 ML is okay, but it's still just a ML. Telion is okay, but with only 3 ablative wounds in the squad, both he and the missile launcher guy are gonna be taking saves real fast.

 

Also, I can't see how footslogging combat scouts are okay, but if you say they work for you, then I guess they're fine.

 

The dev squad is fine at 7-8 guys, I think. 10 of them is just wasted points. Also, I'd get a razorback for them even though they're never gonna ride it. It's a nice TL-ed heavy bolter + you can use the razorback to transport a tactical combat squad, or maybe even the combat scouts.

 

I'd gather some points and replace the WW with another vindicator. Vindicators are really nice in pairs and they double as anti-vehicle and anti-infantry.

 

 

 

 

BTW, just for fun, I suggest you try vortex of doom instead of avenger. Terminator libby is relentless, so he can cast it on the move. It's risky, of course, but then again that str 10 ap1 blast really is going to work most of the time. :lol:

[thade]

Hey, thanks, Giga. Yes, in fact, this is an intended all-comers list. I might switch the two HBs over to MLs, but I'll have to assemble more MLs to do that. :) I thiiiiink I have two more. Might only be one.

 

This snipers, admittedly, really shined in this battle, which is the exception. The way I view them now is that one-wound = a Pinning check (unless it's the ML which could be an instant kill) and if it does any more than that, I'm good with it. I do have two more snipers I could put in the unit, but as it is their survivability is remarkably high with camo cloaks and a 3+ cover save (sometimes I bolster their building with a techmarine for 2+ goodness).

 

The foot-slogging assault scout team had one purpose, which was just this: I was out of Power Fists (assembled) and my Dev squad leader doesn't have one on him, so I stuck those five scouts right in cover with the Dev squad, just sitting there to counter-charge, i.e. to either charge in after the Dev squad got hit, or to get the jump on whoever meant to charge them. The latter happened, and they managed to cut down the ork squad, buying my dev squad two more turns of shooting from their high perches. Well worth 90 pts, imo.

 

I had considered dropping one or two marines from the Dev squad; that's 32 points I could gleefully use somewhere else on the list. I might just take you up on that suggestion.

 

I currently only own one vindicator model and it is in EVERY game I play; I love that thing. It's gold. =)

 

I'll try Vortex today (believe it or not, I'm fighting Dark Eldar @_@) and probably drop Gate for a CC power like Quickening...versus very fast Eldar, Init 10 would be nice. In fact, I might Epistolary him so I can Init 10 Force Weapon kill a noob xenolord.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, Thade that list actually looks tailored to fight orks. Imagine, for instance, trying to take that against necrons :S.

 

I would keep the Whirlwind- forcing your opponent to have is squads spread out like that gives you a psychological advantage, and you may find the terrain/vehicles give you natural choke points to use it with, not to mention its great against lootas :cuss.

 

I would drop a couple marines off the devastators to upgrade your HBs to Lascannons, and their attendant flamers to meltaguns.

 

And I might drop a couple more to get them a razorback... but I enjoy the ablative wounds/close fire support, so probly wouldnt drop it to low.

[Giga]

Every tac squad box comes with a missile launcher. AoBR tac squad included. It's easy to get missile launchers for tacticals, probably the easiest heavy weapon to have for them. The dev box itself comes with one or two missile launchers, if memory serves. :P

 

5 snipers with telion and ML cost 135 pts. I still think a combipredator (120 pts) would do a better overall job of both killing and surviving.

 

8 devs are IMHO just as good as 10 when it comes to those heavy weapons surviving. 8 ablative wounds should be more then enough, and it's a short way from those 32 points to 40, which buys you a razorback. ;)

[Brother_Kluft]

Heres a couple Things I would do

 

Drop the scout squad with power fist, that should free up about 100 points.

 

Exchange the Libby for Sicarius, that takes up about 60 points.

 

Change the Tacs to Melta/plas cannon that will run you 25 points

 

15 points left over either throw a teleport homer on a Tac squad or upgrade all rhinos to dozer blades (I prefer this option)

 

List now looks like this.

 

 

HQ: Sicarius

 

Troops:

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Melta Gun, Plasma cannon, Rhino

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Melta Gun, Plasma cannon, Rhino

- Tactical Squad x10, PF, Melta Gun, Plasma cannon, Rhino

- Scouts x5, Telion, 3 snipers, ML

 

 

Elite:

Tac Termies x5, PS, CML

 

Heavy:

- Dev Squad x10, 4 ML

- Vindicator w/ Siege Shield

- WW

 

What you have lost. : Psychic Hood, mobility for Tac Terminators, small scout squad.

 

What you have gained

Your army build was VERY shooty, but with no ability to break hard armor. With 3 meltaguns your good for that now. You have plenty of anti-transport ability with all the missles and the vindicator. The upgrade to plas cannons puts fear into MEQ armies, can pop light transports, and the small blast is great vs hordes.

 

Why sicarius you ask? Well with a shoot army like yours going first is GOOD. Sicarius helps with that a lot. Additionally you have leadership 10 for the whole army. Your army was pretty invested in Tac's (why not there pretty good after all) and sicarius ability to give scout, infiltrate, tank busters or counter attack is great.

 

Seriously, a scouting tac squad with a rhino is pretty sick (especially going first). Say you are playing pitched battle, 12 inch deploy, 12 inch scout, disembark 2 inch + base size, move 6 you are now 3 inches from his deployment zone. Melta gun a transport and charge the stuff inside! Or multicharge a bunch of IG tanks who are all bricked up together. Now you cracked some armor yo have PLASMA Cannons and a Vindicator! to mush the stuff inside. IG armies will crap themselves when this happens. It will be lovely ;)

 

Oh and Sicarius is pretty beastly himself in CC (2+/4++ with FNP and can cause instant death? Not too shabby)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

cool list i've only dreamed of fielding my all tac squad list. maybe one day when i get some spare heavy weapons

[thade]

For Xmas my folks got me a battle force box so I suddenly had tac marines to spare. =)

 

Thanks all for the thoughts; I'll be fielding my list with a few modifications recommended here and, well, an old throw back you'd all yell at me for. I'll tell you what happens after this Weds. :)

[Grey Mage]

Best of luck with the vangaurd :lol:.

[thade]

Best of luck with the vangaurd :).

<3 !! SO MANY LIGHTING CLAWS.

 

...ahem, pardon me.

[thade]

Alright, take two:

 

Three things aren't pulling their weight, so I'm dropping them in favor of something that, in the past, has pulled it's weight.

- Terminators. I love these things, but I am pretty magical at failing their armor saves. What's that you say? Four wounds? No problem. I roll at least three ones. Bye, Terminators.

- Whirlwind. Against Orks and Eldar, I love this thing. One time it killed almost an entire squad of Thousand Sons with one shot. Otherwise, it's forced alot of ineffective -1 Ld Pinning Checks.

- Snipers w/ Telion. Other than that one awesome game I had last Weds where Telion worked like a real sniper, they are pretty hit-or-miss.

 

Dropping these three units as well as the unit of assault scouts netted me a huge chunk of points to play with. I wanted to stick with the theme of marine/model heavy, so still straying away from Dreads, I went for a re-tooled Vanguard (as GM so readily recognized). The Vanguard will serve one of two functions depending on the opponent, terrain, and mission at hand:

- Sit back behind my firebase and counter charge anything that gets too close.

- Spearhead a Rhino rush (as all of my tacticals are mounted).

 

For those of you who haven't read my umpteen billion pro-Vanguard posts, allow me to submit their load out: 3 vets with a single lit claw, 1 vet (maaaybe two) with a storm shield, and then enough vanilla marines to pad it out (need somebody to soak hits) to probably 8 veterans. I'll be sticking with the Librarian for now (primarily because I have a thing for Librarians) but I've got a Cassius model I've been converting to serve as a Counts-As Cassius for my chapter. With that many Lit Claws, I'm hoping they will be an anti-infantry nightmare. They'll be mounted in an LRC with a MM.

 

I may also drop a power fist in one of the tactical squads to get a lascannon on the table.

 

Again this will be a first for me, as for a very long time I've always run at least one Dreadnought (usually two, one Venerable) and a lascannon-carrying Devastator squad (as that was what I had assembled in the case). Now I've got three full tactical squads and a full Devestator squad at need. Marine-horde = a lot of bodies/ablative wounds, which I'm becoming a fan of.