List with no vehicles - Viable?

[InsideReticle]

I'm wondering: Can a list that has no non-walker vehicles be viable? Terminators, Dreads, all types of infantry are fine, but no transports or heavy support vehicles.

[Giga]

You can live without heavy support.

 

However, without transports, you're pretty much screwed in 5th edition.

 

First, you're going to get mauled against any opponent who has some real long-range ordnance. In other words, Imperial Guard, vindicators, defilers, soul grinders, and basically anything with ap3 (or better) pieplates is going to be slaughtering your expensive MEQ enmasse. Emperor forbid your opponent uses collosus mortars.

 

Second, you're going to be very vulnerable to long-range shooting that puts lots of wounds on your models. Those leman russes that fire 26 heavy bolter shots (20 from one gun, 6 from sponsors), for example are going to be slaughtering your guys with you being unable to do anything about it. Pieplate stuff, like whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, and even biovores are also going to be extremely dangerous.

 

Third, without transports you can't maneuver, and will always be outmaneuvered by mechanized armies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMHO, if you really hate the idea of running vehicles, then maybe you should consider going for a bike army? Khan on bike, or bike captain allow your bikes to be taken as troops, enabling you to make an entire army of highly mobile, tough troops. Combine them with attack bike squadrons for anti-tank, a drop pod dread or two to draw fire, and maybe a scout squad for objective holding, and you can get yourself a nice army that way.

[JamesI]

I've done it, both with jump infantry heavy and just plain footsloggers.

 

But in both cases, having some vehicles and transports makes the list better.

[IronDuke]

Are you classing drop pods as vehicles in this case? In my mind its the only way you can guarantee delivery of men without vehicles. Plus throw some drop pod troops down on one flank and its more targets away from your footsloggers...

ID

[thade]

I second what Giga said: you need Rhinos. Transports are everything in the current edition of Warhammer.

[Jackelope King]

Sure you can make an army without vehicles, but it won't be a competitive army.

 

In 5e, Vehicles are just too survivable, and transports from 5e Codecies are just too cheap to pass up. You need mobility to survive in 5e, and even with the Run option, foot armies just can't keep up (with a few 5e Codecies as exceptions). Marines get very cheap, very rugged transports in the form of Rhinos and Razorbacks. Don't turn your nose up to them if you want to be competitive. With the short-range game that Marines play especially, you need mobility to project your firepower onto the enemy.

 

Drop pods armies are basically foot armies with one chance to access the mobility that going Mech allows you, so while better than a foot army, they're easy enough to out-maneuver once the game starts.

 

The only real exception to this currently is the Space Wolf Codex. Space Wolves are the only Marines who get Cavalry, and Cavalry does a nice job of overcoming the mobility problem. When the Blood Angels Codex comes out, they have a pretty decent shot of being able to go with a "foot" army in the form of a Jump Pack army, as they'll probably still have Jump Pack Infantry in (almost) every slot in the army and again be able to overcome the mobility problem.

 

For the normal Codex, I'd echo that a Biker Marine army is the only viable way to get away without transports (though my Biker Army winds up being very vehicle heavy... spamming 3 Land Speeders, 3 Dreadnoughts, and 3 Predators).

 

In short, mech up if you want a competitive army, or figure out some other solid, reliable way to go faster.

[Golindar]

Certain infantry space marine forces can be viable. There was a discussion about maxing out on terminators in a 2000pt game located here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2274832

 

You can read for yourselft, but I think with a little bit of luck you could win some games without vehicles. Hiding scout squads in cover would negate those high strength, low AP templates with nice cover saves. Taking a MoF both provides a bonus to a cover save and some much needed long range threat. A scout squad could go to ground if necessary for a 2+ save in such a ruin. Camo cloaks are relatively cheap for a small squad camping in an objective to go to ground for a 2+ cover as well. Depending on how lucky you get with rolling in your terminator reserves you will have too many targets for your opponent to focus all of his low AP templates. As discussed in the link above, fielding Tigurus would allow you to re-roll reserves and also provide the all important psychic hood.

 

We had an infantry apocalypse game last month where vehicles cost double points. It was tons of fun. As much as I wanted to field a line-breaker formation, I opted to go for all-infantry. I made the mistake of leaving tac squads in the open and the promptly got orbital bombardment, demo-charge, and the like droped on them. The lesson learned was that cover is an infantry squads friend.

[Gryfon]

Im really not sure where all the "must have mech" started. I run an all foot SM army with no problems at all. for 2000 pts I have usually over 90 marines (i.e. most of a company, and run like a company as well, with 6 tacticals, 2 assault, 2 devs and a commander). While I dont win every fight (few do) I do pretty well. You just need to be smart about how you equip units, and how you support each unit. Every tactical squad has both an anti-tank weapon, and an anti-infantry weapon (usually missiles and flamers.) when you have so much firepower in your force, few mech lists can get across the table, and with so many units, its hard for drop pods to get inside your lines as well. And when they do, you have plenty to stop them with.

Dont be discouraged from running an all infantry list. Try it out a few times, im sure that you will be pleasantly surprised at how versatile it really is. Plus its always nice to see peoples faces when you put that many marines on the table, as well as watching all those melta guns go to waste killing one marine a turn max.

Some words of caution though...

YOU CAN NOT bunch your guys up. They will get slaughtered by big guns.

If not playing annihilation, use combat squads to spread out even farther, and confuse the enemy (what do you mean you have 12 units to hold objectives with!).

Use cover as much as you can. Pretend that you are Guardsmen. You almost never see a guardsman in the open, why a much smarter marine then?

Use your assault squads for what they really excel at... chasing down the opponents big guns, artillery, and other units sitting in the back shooting up your guys. Dont get caught up chasing down his assualty units, just shoot them.

You will have lots of heavy weapons, use them to kill those "hard to kill mech units" that everyone seems to have. You really dont even have to kill most of them, keeping them from moving is fine. This allows you to control some of the movement phase by making sure they cant get where they want to get to.

Run when you dont have to shoot. Running really can get your units in place almost as fast as a vehicle.

If you do play annihilation, keep your squads together, and use overwhelming firepower to kill every unit whether tank/infantry that you see. You will be surprised at just how quickly things die when 2,3,or 4 squads shoot at them.

 

All in all, try it out. Its not a tactic that everyone likes to use, because its difficult, and they think that tanks are "invincible". They arent really, but it takes some practice to really get the hang of the all infantry force. Once you do, youll be surprised at how easy it is, and wonder why you ever used those Point sink vehicles in the first place.

 

Gryfon

[Warprat]

I have been using an all walking force. 4 Tac squads, 2 Termies, 1 Dread, 2 Leaders. The contents of two black reach boxes, and a couple Tac from the 4th Ed set.

 

Been having a blast using these basic units. It's fun to max out thier capabilities, using strategy and tactics. My regular opponent is Tau (with a generous assortment of goodies to choose from).

 

My first couple games I got stomped as I feed my army slowly into the meat grinder piecemeal. I got a good feel for what Tau firepower can do. Lately though, I have been winning my games.

 

Couple days ago I won (barely) an annialation mission with dawn of war setup, 1000 pts. I out-shot the Tau, sorta... He setup first in the center, pushing me back behind a couple hills near the edge. I setup Refused flank, hiding from 75% of his army, while my heavy Tac weapons and terminators blasted a Firewarrior squad on one flank in the open. His broadside and suit ripped my terminators apart, but not enough to destroy a whole squad. Final result- 1 KP in my favor, him 0. Felt like a coward for hiding... but won.

 

 

 

 

Smart deployment can minimize a lot of the mobility weakness. I also use a Librarian with Gate, for surprise moves. Nice thing is Tau don't use a lot of templates, so I can bunch up when needed. I proxy plasma cannons, which rip his formations apart nicely. That, and his big guns have only the dread to shoot at (when I take him.) If I deploy him cleverly, I can avoid most of the fire. So far I have used him twice and he has survived both games, but been immobilized in both.

 

I haven't faced anything but Tau. I can only imagine what the massed templates of IG can do! When I get some free time I willl put some Rhinos together and add some heavy weapons to the terminators. Maybe a devestator and sternguard squad as well.

 

But, for now, things have been going well just learning the basics, and trying to use basic units to thier maximum.

 

Warprat ;)

[spartan249]

Vehicles give you so many different advantages over footslogging lists, it's not even a close match. If 'Ard Boyz and Adepticon are any indication, vehicles are the way to go for vanilla marines.

 

First, Transports provide infantry protection. Whether it's protection from shooting, protection from assault, protection from psychic powers, or protection from rattly table syndrome, transports are invaluable at denying territory, LOS, and juicy targets. For 35 points a pop, it's quite a bargain.

 

Second, Transports provide mobility. The ability to rocket 12" every turn, disembark, and shoot 16-17 bolter shots after moving 12", and the ability to relocate quickly as the battlefield changes is an invaluable ability to have.

 

Third, Transports can control space. Through tack shock, transports can provide a cheap way to "lash" opponents into favorable positions. Any way to influence your opponent's movement is a welcome addition to your repetoire of options in battle.

 

Fourth, Transports provide other vehicles and squishies cover. Acting as mobile walls and active terrain, transports can screen more important units in your army and help them do their jobs. Again, for 35 points each rhino, it's a bargain.

 

And these were the advantages that transports hold over footslogging infantry, let alone actual combat vehicles.

[Golindar]

Vehicles give you so many different advantages over footslogging lists, it's not even a close match. If 'Ard Boyz and Adepticon are any indication, vehicles are the way to go for vanilla marines.

 

First, Transports provide infantry protection. Whether it's protection from shooting, protection from assault, protection from psychic powers, or protection from rattly table syndrome, transports are invaluable at denying territory, LOS, and juicy targets. For 35 points a pop, it's quite a bargain.

 

Second, Transports provide mobility. The ability to rocket 12" every turn, disembark, and shoot 16-17 bolter shots after moving 12", and the ability to relocate quickly as the battlefield changes is an invaluable ability to have.

 

Third, Transports can control space. Through tack shock, transports can provide a cheap way to "lash" opponents into favorable positions. Any way to influence your opponent's movement is a welcome addition to your repetoire of options in battle.

 

Fourth, Transports provide other vehicles and squishies cover. Acting as mobile walls and active terrain, transports can screen more important units in your army and help them do their jobs. Again, for 35 points each rhino, it's a bargain.

 

And these were the advantages that transports hold over footslogging infantry, let alone actual combat vehicles.

 

Yes, vehicles have all of those advantages that are hard to pass up for the price. However, that is not to say that a list without vehicles is not viable. A list maxed out with infantry has advantages as well. As other posters discussed, an all infantry force has a great amount of firepower. Non-mechanized infantry are less mobile and more vulnerable. But you will be much happier sucking up a melta gun on a single infantry model than a 250pt. landraider. Infanty can get cover saves for low AP/ high str. weapons from just being in area terrain. Vehicles need to be 50% obscured..

 

Obviously, we need to use different tactics when deploying an all infantry force than we do a mechanized infantry force. Sure, a vehicle might survive to round 5 in order to tank shock a low leadership opponent off of an objective, but with an all infantry force, we may be more likely to shoot the low leadership opponent off of the objective before turn 5.

 

I will not deny the advantages of loading up your tac squads in rhinos. 3 full tac squads in rhinos seem to be pretty standard for a mechanized marine army. For about the same points you could get 2 tac squads and a 10 man dev. squad with some nice heavy weapon upgrades. The mech army offers all of the advantages described by spartan and will be competitive. An infantry army offers a different set of advantages but could also be competitive.

[ShinyRhino]

I've always wanted to run an all-infantry list, and though tmaybe the best way to do so would be a combined Black Templars/Sisters of Battle force.

The idea hinges around HUGE Troops units. A couple of 20-strong Sisters units with bolters, and a boatload of Crusader squads with max Neophytes with mixed weaponry for playing wound allocation games. Sisters hold the line, and the Templars roll forward on foot. The Templar vows and ability to move FORWARD after taking Morale checks replaces the need for transports.

Add in Assault Marines, Seraphim, Terminators, Dreads, and other footsloggers as your heart desires.

 

Might not be an 'Ard Boyz winner, but it'll be fun to show up at the table with!

[Jackelope King]

Yes, vehicles have all of those advantages that are hard to pass up for the price. However, that is not to say that a list without vehicles is not viable. A list maxed out with infantry has advantages as well. As other posters discussed, an all infantry force has a great amount of firepower. Non-mechanized infantry are less mobile and more vulnerable. But you will be much happier sucking up a melta gun on a single infantry model than a 250pt. landraider. Infanty can get cover saves for low AP/ high str. weapons from just being in area terrain. Vehicles need to be 50% obscured..

 

Obviously, we need to use different tactics when deploying an all infantry force than we do a mechanized infantry force. Sure, a vehicle might survive to round 5 in order to tank shock a low leadership opponent off of an objective, but with an all infantry force, we may be more likely to shoot the low leadership opponent off of the objective before turn 5.

 

I will not deny the advantages of loading up your tac squads in rhinos. 3 full tac squads in rhinos seem to be pretty standard for a mechanized marine army. For about the same points you could get 2 tac squads and a 10 man dev. squad with some nice heavy weapon upgrades. The mech army offers all of the advantages described by spartan and will be competitive. An infantry army offers a different set of advantages but could also be competitive.

For competitive games, no, a footslogger army is not viable when you're using Codex: Space Marines to make it.

 

A list maxed-out with foot-sloggers might have more guns to fire, but if they never get in range to fire, what good were they? With all of my lists (hybrid Tau, Mech Marines, Biker Marines), I can wheel from a central position into refused flank and have my whole army fight less than half of yours. Great, you spent a pile of points on a Dev squad with four heavy weapons. I spend those same points and get three Predators, which is are more mobile and serve as force multipliers for one another. Your firepower is only superior if you ever get a chance to use it, and footsloggers never will, especially against mech. Two mores squads worth of bolters? Those won't help you against my Razorbacks. It's not a question of whether or not you have too many models on the table for me to kill: the only question that matters is whether the models you put on the table are enough of a threat to my mission objectives. And frankly, when you're trying to foot-slog, almost half of your models become irrelevant, because you're forced to play against an opponent who can engage an entire army against your one flank. Unless you can beat my 2000 point army with your 1000 point army on a 3'x4' board, you won't win.

 

All of this goes right out the window if all you want is a friendly game. I do enjoy putting every single Tactical Marine I own stretched out across the battlefield in Apocalypse. But that's not a competitive game: it's Apocalypse, and it's an excuse to do zany things.

 

And again, note that I said using Codex: Space Marines. Space Wolves can foot-slog pretty darn well. Tyranid foot-... scuttlers? Foot-... clawers? I'll stick with scuttlers. Tyranid foot-scuttlers are a terror and a half. Everyone is getting increased mobility in 5e. For most armies, it'll probably be cheaper access to the transports that the main rules already beefed up wonderfully. For Space Wolves, it's the addition of Cavalry. For Blood Angels, it'll probably be jump troops everywhere.

 

The game changed when 5th Edition came out. Gunlines are dead. Foot-slogging hordes are dead. Unless you can keep up with mech (which Space Wolves and Tyranids can, without meching up), you are not a competitive army.

[Warprat]

I agree about the Rhinos, they can add so much...

 

 

But that last Kill Point mission I think I would have lost if I would have had them. Rail guns are not kind to vehicles of any kind.

 

At least the terminators he shot at could hide behind cover, use a cover save, or even thier invulnerable save. And being a multi-model unit, they all have to be destoyed to get the Kill Point. Sure, a terminator costs more than a rhino in cost points, but you lose a KP for each rhino destroyed.

 

Besides, there was no place safe for a vehicle to hide in. Smoke for one turn, then that would be that. Rhino's would have let me take my Tac's to the enemy however. So I would have played the game differently. More KP's for each side. But I think the Tau would have won with the easy KP's the rhinos would have provided.

 

 

Generally, I would say that I have been hurt more for the lack of rhinos than helped, overall in my games. Especially the non KP missions. But I think that Golindar also makes a good point that All Infantry lists setup and play differently.

 

Warprat ;)

[Meatman]

Yes you can use an effective list with no vehicles. Wonderful thing called infiltrating scouts, and Shrike :cuss

 

 

I run

-Shrike with a 10 man assault squad, p.fist, meltabombs, 2 flamers

-10 man scout squad with p.fist, shotgun, scouts with ccws, meltabombs

-5 man scout squad in storm (heavy flamer), shotguns, p.weapon and bolt pistol, meltabombs

-5 bikes + attack bike with multimelta, 2 meltaguns, p.fist + meltabombs

 

in 1000 points

 

Highest AV is 10, everything except bikes gets first turn charge. Shrikes squad and the scouts infiltrate 12-18" away, the storm with scouts normally deploys as normal. Scout move everything as close as possible, then move, fleet if needed, shoot, and charge. Bikes move up for 2nd or 3rd turn support.

 

Lots of models in the enemy deployment zone regardless of what size board and can take on pretty much anything in combat and win. Bit of a one trick pony, but I do love the look on your opponents face when 26 angry marines are in combat before you even get the chance to shoot them.