ShinyRhino Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The main concern with new Nids seems to be the Doom of Malan'tai, and the Trygon/Mawloc. But in looking at some of the options in the new Nid Dex, the thing that stands out for me is the Carnifex Brood. Nidzilla used to be killable by singling out each Fex as it came at you, until each one was dead. This seems less likely to work now, though. How does one stop a UNIT of three Carnifex? So many wounds to cut through, and no instant death to help out. How do you stop this ball of chitin before it gets to your line? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Josef Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 People winge about how un-original it is but Assault termies w/chaplain + captain (relic blade +digi weapons) assaulting out of a LR (las cannons causing a couple of wounds on the way in) will sort them out in pretty short order. If that's not a unit you currently have and don't want to fork out that £-age to buy them any concentration of high strength AP3 weaponry will do. Typhoons are wonderful at this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2283964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Must stress the importance of Typhoons. Have two regularly in my lists, only time I have faced the new nids they were invaluable. Faced off against 2 of these suckers in a brood and with the combined firing of 2 Typhoons, Rifleman Dread, Lascannon/ML Dread and other things they were both dead before they got to me. The major change to the good for us is that they are vulnerable to AP3 weapons again so Missile Launchers do a good job and if you are out of AP3 weapons then anything S5 and above is good (if you are out of them bolters can knock the occassional wound off them). Thing with wound allocation is that even if they start to spread the wounds evenly it means that they are more likely to all die at the same time. Its got to be said though, the nids get very expensive quickly if they start to buy the big stuff so at least its a concentration of wounds. Dont trust hidden power fists to do the work though, rerolling all misses quickly increases the number of marines to fall each combat round, this means that you have to kill him quickly or that Power Fist is going to die with the rest of them. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2283974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard12 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 vindicators I was reading a tyranid forum and one player was complaining about the fact they could take broods. Example, you fire a vindicator at 1 'fex. It scatters slightly and causes only one wound, now, in a brood with 3 'fexs withing a few inches of each other, a slightly scattered shot in the right direction will cause 3 wounds instead of just one. Also the high strengh and the low Ap means you can tear though single carnifexi quite easilly Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2283979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Well, I can only thank the emperor that they are easier to wound now. Now missle launchers are ideal weapons to use on them. The 4xML devistator squad will have a target rich enviroment, vindi pie plates continue to not be a bad choice for a all commers list, a combi-pred still has its use aginst nids, but I think typhoons are the way to go. They cost the same as a squad of devisators without weapons, extra bodies, and without transport. I'm sure most of you agree the extra mobility and heavy bolter shots will make up for the lack of wounds, plus they're great vs. horde and MC/Walker/Transports. 2x Typhoons basically makes that fast attack slot a heavy support slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2283982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor{DoH} Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Someone was telling me that when taken as a unit that they each have to be equipped the same, is that true? If that is the case then that will help out greatly as they can't spread wounds around since you need to remove whole models when possible in a unit of multiple-wounders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2283987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelope King Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Right now, the main thing standing in the way of Carnifex Broods is that they're so darn expensive and their slow speed. People are toying around with Reserve Nid armies now (with Hive Commander Tyrants and Lictors, they become scary-good at dropping an entire army turn 2 right in your face) and flying armies (rightly so, as Harpies are much, much, much scarier than they get credit for, and a brood of 8-point gargoyles can and will wipe out a squad of marines every single turn in assault). (Note that if it weren't for the fact that they come in small, expensive boxes, I also think that we'd see some scary Warrior armies). "Classic" Nidzilla is a little hard to pull off at the moment, as nobody has really found a good price break for them yet and you can't make really good Dakkafexes anymore (at least, not better than the Tyranofex and certainly not better than Hive Guard). So how can you stop it? First, you need to stay way, way away from it. Your army can't be static, or the bugs will eat it. You're going to see Raveners play the role Hormaguants did back in 4th Edition, getting jammed up in your face and forcing you to split your fire or get assaulted by something that will do serious damage. Then you have the gargoyles or flying warriors or flyrant behind them. And you haven't even started shooting the Hive Guard putting huge holes in your troops or the Tyranofex or the Harpy or... I know it's easy to say and hard to do, but you can't let yourself get sucked into thinking that way. I don't know how many smart Nid players there are out there, but they're going to pick a battle plan for their army, spam units that can stack with one another, and then either shove the whole thing right in your face or dare you to come across the table and deal with it. Lesser Nid players will grab one-ofs for all the new shinies and play a battleforce. It all turns into threat identification. Warp Angel's got the right idea in his series: identify the greatest threat to your objectives and shoot at it until it's more mangled than Wile E. Coyote after an outing with the Road Runner. They move on. Kill what can threaten you, ignore what can't. If I'm mech'd and he's swarming Gaunts and Tervigons, the Gaunts will die real easy once I've dealt with the Tervigons, the only threats to my mech'd up troops. Skirmishers (or speed bumps, as some people like to call them) are going to become critical in dealing with critters like Carnifexes, and Marines tend to lack these cheap, expendable units (which is why I always love my Kroot when I play my Tau army). If you play classic Mech Marines with Rhinos... feed them your Rhinos. Then let them have the unit inside. That buys you two extra turns to shoot them up. Smart Nid players might realize this ploy and scoot around the Rhino, but if you can wipe out Synapse in that area (no small task, now that Warriors can be had as really, really, really good Troops), you can force the Carnifex to just feed on your speed bump. Even if you can't kill them, you can take them out of the picture in this way. And this is how you're going to have to face them. Wheel away from some of the threats, engage other ones. Block what you can't kill, and shoot / assault what you can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2283991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Someone was telling me that when taken as a unit that they each have to be equipped the same, is that true? If that is the case then that will help out greatly as they can't spread wounds around since you need to remove whole models when possible in a unit of multiple-wounders. 100% true. If you take Carnifex as a brood, they must all be armed the same. Thanks for all the tips and ideas, everyone. I think the thing that makes them so scary for me is my lack of heavy firepower in my lists. I tend to run with a core of a Bike Captain with Relic Blade, Arty Armor, and Hellfire Rounds, then two mechanized tacticals typically armed with missle launcher and flamer or meltagun, and then two 8-man biker squads with attack bikes. One bike squad runs plasmaguns, power weapon, and heavy bolter. Theother runs meltaguns, powerfist, and multimelta. The periphery of my force varies, but I tend to like Venerable Dreads, Assault Marines, or a Devastator Squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Sternguard and snipers, nuff said :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Since carnifex's don't have a 2+ save anymore, are snipers nessecary? However, I agree on sternguard using helfire rounds. Now they are exactly like shooting at marines! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Since carnifex's don't have a 2+ save anymore, are snipers nessecary? However, I agree on sternguard using helfire rounds. Now they are exactly like shooting at marines! Snipers have the advantage of wounding the T6 Carnifexxen on a 4+, whereas with a bolter you're going for 6+. The real thing that worries me about a Fex Brood is the sheer number of wounds you need to work through before they go down. It's a pile of what, like 12 T6, 3+ save wounds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A barebones carnifex brood costs 480 pts, and they're slow and die to pretty much any AT gun. The idea is to kill one with shooting, and then assault them with th/ss termies. Termies hit on 3+ and wound on 2+, which means applying liberal banhammer on the carnifexes is easier then ever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Since carnifex's don't have a 2+ save anymore, are snipers nessecary? However, I agree on sternguard using helfire rounds. Now they are exactly like shooting at marines! Snipers have the advantage of wounding the T6 Carnifexxen on a 4+, whereas with a bolter you're going for 6+. The real thing that worries me about a Fex Brood is the sheer number of wounds you need to work through before they go down. It's a pile of what, like 12 T6, 3+ save wounds? So I take your point to use snipers instead of tac marines. I guess I could see that, using cheaper scouts as troops and sternguard as soldados(troops). If one is going to run Stern. + Pedro, you are going to have to cut points somewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 A barebones carnifex brood costs 480 pts, and they're slow and die to pretty much any AT gun. The idea is to kill one with shooting, and then assault them with th/ss termies. Termies hit on 3+ and wound on 2+, which means applying liberal banhammer on the carnifexes is easier then ever. But the trick is killing one with shooting. If Carnifex have 4 wound each (IIRC), you need TEN unsaved wounds before one of those guys topples B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Using snipers against nids would be totally pointless. Their MCs get 3+ saves from sniper wounds, and the snipers themselves get owned by stuff like outflanking genestealers, ymgarl genestealers, shooting, any sort of assault etc. Hell, even pyrovores murder them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I don't own snipers nor will I intentionaly buy them, but the point in using them is to take advantage of their range, rending, and cheapness. You still can't pen nids can you? If you want to fill your troop slots with something cheap, you don't have many choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 A barebones carnifex brood costs 480 pts, and they're slow and die to pretty much any AT gun. The idea is to kill one with shooting, and then assault them with th/ss termies. Termies hit on 3+ and wound on 2+, which means applying liberal banhammer on the carnifexes is easier then ever. But the trick is killing one with shooting. If Carnifex have 4 wound each (IIRC), you need TEN unsaved wounds before one of those guys topples :P No, you remove whole models as the wounds fall in multi-wound units, and as all the 'fex must be bred the same, they can't spread wounds that way. 4 Wounds kills a 'fex. That said... I'm not impressed by 'fek broods, for the same reason as I'm not impressed by Leman Russ Tank Squadrons. What points value are you playing that you need to cram 3 expensive Heavy Support choices into a single slot because you still have the points for more Heavy Support? Now, for my money, the really good option is the Single Carnifex in a Drop Pod. You throw a Monstrous Creature at the enemy, try and get it a Cover Save and advance the rest of the army while your enemy is forced to deal with a Carnifex that will otherwise get to Assault next turn... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelope King Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 As for which weapons to pack against Nids, really... Autocannon, all day long. It wounds most big bugs on a 3+, two shots each, rending. You need to spend too darn much on snipers for them to do much of anything... with 8 snipers, you only get an average of 2 (savable) wounds, and you're doing nothing against the rest of the bugs swarming you. Autocannons have a better range, are more likely to hit, more likely to wound, and have the same odds to rend. And since they can be had with Elite (TL Autocannons on Dreads) or HS (standard-issue Predator), they're easy to fit into most armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 autocannons dont rend you are thinking assault cannons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelope King Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 autocannons dont rend you are thinking assault cannons My mistake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 I know its been said, but it bears restating multiple times. THSS termies win games versus nidzilla. Infact, if it wasnt for supergants then THSS termie blocks would walk through the entire new nid book. Gants (I include gargs in this) and maybe toxin stealers are the only thing keeping nids in the game versus marine armies. 200 points of 5 thss termies unsupported on the charge kill 2 of the 3 carnifexs in the 480 point brood. In return they lose ~3 models. The final fex takes ~2 wounds from combat res, and then dies next turn unless the THSS termies get charged by above mentioned gants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Ignore this, wrong information, assuming carnifex are still I1 (thought they were I2) they might do much better. If they are not I 1 Devians example doesnt hold true because they attack first but I will have to read the codex first Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Carnifex are I1 but gain +2I on the charge for that turn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 The main concern with new Nids seems to be the Doom of Malan'tai, and the Trygon/Mawloc.But in looking at some of the options in the new Nid Dex, the thing that stands out for me is the Carnifex Brood. Nidzilla used to be killable by singling out each Fex as it came at you, until each one was dead. This seems less likely to work now, though. How does one stop a UNIT of three Carnifex? So many wounds to cut through, and no instant death to help out. How do you stop this ball of chitin before it gets to your line? Missile Launchers. 6 Missile Launchers results in 3-4 wounds a turn, or about a Carnifex's worth of death. I further propose that if your not taking a 4 ML devastator squad to a fight against nidz your just not trying, and that most all comers SM lists should have atleast 4 such weapons in their arsenal, small points values and vulkan aside. As always, best to kill a carnifex at range. As for TH+SS TDA, theyre great right up until they start dying- they fail saves just as easily as normal TDA against most of Tyranid shooting, and what they lack in quality they make up for in quantity. 200pts in gaunts will likely all but destroy a 5 man TDA unit in shooting, and then let a carnifex finish them off in assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2284766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 But the trick is killing one with shooting. If Carnifex have 4 wound each (IIRC), you need TEN unsaved wounds before one of those guys topples :lol: Naw, all models in a brood must have same gear (biomorphs). Hence, they can't play with wound allocation, hence 4 wounds kills a fex. On average, a single shooting salvo from a typhoon speeder squadron (3 speeders) will be killing a fex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/192377-dealing-with-the-carnifex-brood/#findComment-2285149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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