Dealing with the Carnifex Brood.

[DerekLee688]

Not to sound like a broken record, but 2xTyphoons will get you those four missile shots, plus more. Heavy bolters., speed, mobile fire power, anti-MC/Horde,and relativly cheap. Only problem is they're still flying coffins.

[Giga]

Not to sound like a broken record, but 2xTyphoons will get you those four missile shots, plus more. Heavy bolters., speed, mobile fire power, anti-MC/Horde,and relativly cheap. Only problem is they're still flying coffins.

You mean they die easy?

 

Not really. I find people think speeders are very easy to kill, but in reality my speeder squadrons rarely if ever die before they complete their mission.

 

This is especially true of typhoons, who have an effective 36" range and can move 6" per turn and shoot everything. This means it's rather easy to keep them in cover, while still applying firepower.

[kaiserstole20]

As a part-time 'Nid player, if I were walking 'fexes up the board they would definitely be accompanied by a venomthrope.

[Giga]

As a part-time 'Nid player, if I were walking 'fexes up the board they would definitely be accompanied by a venomthrope.

I don't think the venomthrope is worth it.

 

I mean, a 5+ cover save is hardly going to keep your fexes alive. Not to mention the venomthrope itself gets gibbed by a single krak missile.

[kaiserstole20]

As a part-time 'Nid player, if I were walking 'fexes up the board they would definitely be accompanied by a venomthrope.

I don't think the venomthrope is worth it.

 

I mean, a 5+ cover save is hardly going to keep your fexes alive. Not to mention the venomthrope itself gets gibbed by a single krak missile.

 

The 5+ save makes it very difficult to kill a carnifex with missile launchers and similar weapons. Takes about 11 shots to kill one. That's almost hopeless.

 

Venomthropes are awesome. For a very reasonable point cost you give any unit within 6 inches defensive grenades, a 5+ cover save, and a toxic cloud that forces a dangerous terrain test if you want to assault the unit(s).

 

They are fragile but I attach my Alpha warrior to a unit of 2 and let him take the lascannon to the face.

 

*edit to correct bad math

[Grey Mage]

6 Missiles on average deals about 4 wounds to a carnifex, if you give it a 5+ save it becomes more like 2.... but Id put the total then at 9- 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1-2 saves = usually a dead carnifex.

 

Really, thats the thing about venomthropes. theyre not MCs, so you can hide them pretty easily behind the carnifexii and let it work. Still, Id be more worried about 40 attendant gaunts.

[minigun762]

I'd agree that a Venomthrope would be a smart move for a Carnifex Brood.

If you shoot at it, you're keeping your Carnifex alive. If you shot at the Carnifex it will have a 5+ cover save.

Also remember if you assault the Carnifex, it will count as having Defensive Grenades and you have to make a dangerous terrain test.

 

I think I'd be more worried about the brood if it had a gun. Just walking up the board (even with Run) it seems like it would be too slow to be a major threat until turns 4+.

 

To be honest though, I think people are going to use Trygons much more often. They are just so much better then the Carnifex at the role of assault MC. The only place the Carnifex has an advantage is hunting Land Raiders (but S6 is hardly bad) and insta-killing T4 models like Nobz/Warriors.

[kaiserstole20]

I think I'd be more worried about the brood if it had a gun. Just walking up the board (even with Run) it seems like it would be too slow to be a major threat until turns 4+.

 

This is definitely true. If I were going to run a carnifex brood (which I am not) I would put 2x TL Devourers on them. Each would pump out 12 TL S6 shots a turn at 18". That's pretty good.

[FlamingDeth]

That said... I'm not impressed by 'fek broods, for the same reason as I'm not impressed by Leman Russ Tank Squadrons. What points value are you playing that you need to cram 3 expensive Heavy Support choices into a single slot because you still have the points for more Heavy Support?

I can see the virtue of it, that it's easier to find cover for one and a half carnifexes to give the entire unit a cover save than it is to find cover for three individually. That way they're also one kill point instead of three. Not that I'd take them in a brood in the hypothetical situation that I bothered playing something that isn't marines, just that I can sort of understand why someone would do it.

 

As for dealing with them, land speeders are all sorts of fun, as others have said. Take them in squadrons (much more economical and effective than it is with 'fexes) to increase their survivability and killability, shoot the stuffing out of all the MCs, then next turn blow away a swarm of gaunts. Cheap, effective, versatile! And speedy. I love speedy.

[Grey Mage]

I think people underestimate the speed of a Carnifex- sure, theyre not winged, but a 10" average move isnt bad... its almost as fast as a mounted squad.

 

And you know that if the Fex aint running, theres a darn good reason for it.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

vindicators

 

I was reading a tyranid forum and one player was complaining about the fact they could take broods.

 

Example,

 

you fire a vindicator at 1 'fex. It scatters slightly and causes only one wound, now, in a brood with 3 'fexs withing a few inches of each other, a slightly scattered shot in the right direction will cause 3 wounds instead of just one.

Also the high strengh and the low Ap means you can tear though single carnifexi quite easilly

 

I dont like the idea of taking gimmick weapons and then merely hoping for a lucky scatter. not very tactical

I use las/plas squads with fists by the time they contact me if they do they get wasted

add in las from preds and STERNGUARD

[Giga]

Carnifex brood with 3 fexes, a venomthrope, and a tyranid prime costs a grand total of 615 pts. And the fexes are still gonna get murdered by th/ss termies, and the venomthrope + prime are gonna make a great target for pedro. :tu:

 

The prime isn't gonna keep the venomthrope safe, simply because shooting two lascannons/missiles/multimeltas into them at the same time will force the nid player to locate a lascannon wound on the venomthrope. All it takes is one failed save and the venomthrope is turned into an easy kill point. If you spend more points to get a full brood of venomthropes, you're effectively tying 725 pts into 7 models, none of which can do any long-range damage.

 

In addition, carnifex broods suffer from slow movement. You can say they move ~10" per turn, but in reality they're gonna take ages to get anywhere. This is particularly true in dawn of war deployment. Pitched battle is almost as bad as the fexes are still gonna need 3-4 turns to reach opponent's deployment zone.

 

Suffice to say, I'm not particularly worried about them, venomthrope or no venomthrope.

[kaiserstole20]

Carnifex brood with 3 fexes, a venomthrope, and a tyranid prime costs a grand total of 615 pts. And the fexes are still gonna get murdered by th/ss termies, and the venomthrope + prime are gonna make a great target for pedro. :P

 

The prime isn't gonna keep the venomthrope safe, simply because shooting two lascannons/missiles/multimeltas into them at the same time will force the nid player to locate a lascannon wound on the venomthrope. All it takes is one failed save and the venomthrope is turned into an easy kill point. If you spend more points to get a full brood of venomthropes, you're effectively tying 725 pts into 7 models, none of which can do any long-range damage.

 

In addition, carnifex broods suffer from slow movement. You can say they move ~10" per turn, but in reality they're gonna take ages to get anywhere. This is particularly true in dawn of war deployment. Pitched battle is almost as bad as the fexes are still gonna need 3-4 turns to reach opponent's deployment zone.

 

Suffice to say, I'm not particularly worried about them, venomthrope or no venomthrope.

 

Well it would actually be 3, since on average one of the 3 is going to miss at BS4. And while the wound is a close to guaranteed as you can get in a d6 system, 1 in 6 won't wound. Then there's a 1/3 chance that the cover save will take care of it.

 

Frankly if someone is willing to direct that much firepower in one turn to taking out a venomthrope I'm all for it because now my carnifexes with 2x TL devourers are probably close enough to open up with the guns with that extra turn to run. The venomthrope did the job. With 2 carnifexes that's 24 TL S6 shots. Not too shabby.

 

I'm not taking carnifexes anyways, but if I did I would feel very confident with a venomthrope escorting them, especially if they are dakkafexes.

[Koremu]

As a part-time 'Nid player, if I were walking 'fexes up the board they would definitely be accompanied by a venomthrope.

I don't think the venomthrope is worth it.

 

I mean, a 5+ cover save is hardly going to keep your fexes alive. Not to mention the venomthrope itself gets gibbed by a single krak missile.

A Carnifex with a 5+ Cover save is significantly more durable than one without. And a Venomthrope standing behind a 'fex brood has a 4+ Cover save.

 

You're beginning to run out of Krak missiles here. When your answer to everything in the 'nid army is "Krak Missile", you begin to realise how much target saturation and pressure is going to determine the flow of 'nid play.

 

Carnifex brood with 3 fexes, a venomthrope, and a tyranid prime costs a grand total of 615 pts. And the fexes are still gonna get murdered by th/ss termies, and the venomthrope + prime are gonna make a great target for pedro. :P

 

If you want a Synapse Creature in there, I would go for the Tervigon. The idea of giving Feel No Pain to the Carnifex Brood (remember - Krak Missiles do not disallow FNP on the 'fex) or having the ability to both run and shoot their Assault Dakka is a brutal one. It also gives you a bunch of Gaunts, which will bog down your TH/SS Termis, and has a 4+ Cover Save because it'll hide behind a 'fex.

 

And if you fire Krak Missiles at the supporting units, then they are doing their job right... getting the 'fex to where it needs to be.

 

Also, Venomthropes come in Broods of 3.

[kaiserstole20]

If you want a Synapse Creature in there, I would go for the Tervigon.

 

I love the Tervigon, it's a great new unit. I run 2 at 1500 points. With a venomthrope nearby the Tervigon is incredibly difficult to kill - over 16 krak missile shots at BS4. I like to run a lot of termagants too, so it's a huge help giving counter attack and toxin sacs to the living wave. Add the toxic cloud, cover save, and defensive grenades from a venomthrope and the cheap termagant model just got pretty good.

[minigun762]

You're beginning to run out of Krak missiles here. When your answer to everything in the 'nid army is "Krak Missile", you begin to realise how much target saturation and pressure is going to determine the flow of 'nid play.

 

This is why its nice to be a SW player right now, with your cheap Long Fang ML spamming squads of doom.

[Koremu]

You're beginning to run out of Krak missiles here. When your answer to everything in the 'nid army is "Krak Missile", you begin to realise how much target saturation and pressure is going to determine the flow of 'nid play.

 

This is why its nice to be a SW player right now, with your cheap Long Fang ML spamming squads of doom.

Yes, it's very annoying how the Space Wolves "lots of CC" Chapter/Legion has the best long range support unit. I feel that GW realised what a gigantic unit of fail the Devastator Squad was after C:SM came out.

[ShinyRhino]

Defiitely some great discussion, all.

I have my work cut out for me as a biker player going up against the new Nids. Monthly tourney is this coming weekend,s o we'll see how many new Nids players show up, and if I actually have to face one.

[Grey Mage]

You're beginning to run out of Krak missiles here. When your answer to everything in the 'nid army is "Krak Missile", you begin to realise how much target saturation and pressure is going to determine the flow of 'nid play.

 

This is why its nice to be a SW player right now, with your cheap Long Fang ML spamming squads of doom.

Yes, it's very annoying how the Space Wolves "lots of CC" Chapter/Legion has the best long range support unit. I feel that GW realised what a gigantic unit of fail the Devastator Squad was after C:SM came out.

I think it has more to do to with the fact that maybe one in ten SW players was willing to field what should be, fluff-wise, a staple unit for the army.

 

Many of us still feel the unit is overly fragile, and so found solace in their vindicators... these players would happily field a devastator squad at full price just so it would stick around a bit longer.

 

I have no idea what theyre doing wrong.

 

*Sighs* Now... if only there was a viable way for a SW player to get Missile Launchers!

[Captain Idaho]

Ignore them until they reach your lines with everything but a single Typhoon, then counter attack with with your Honour Guard/Lightning Claw Terminators plus character with Relic blade and kill or cripple them in a single charge! The fact you ignored them means your shooting killed the rest of their army, though taking the odd wound off them will prevent bad luck from ruining your plan. If there is 3 of them though you may want to shoot them a little more first, you know just for good measure.

 

Seriously, being so low in initiative means those 10 relic blade attacks at WS6/5 (Master and Chapter Champion with Relic blades) and 20 power weapon attacks all striking before the Carnifex will make a mess of 2 of them, considering they were weakened with fire first.

[Giga]

If the carnifexes are shooty, then you don't really need to shoot them before you assault them. Just go in and kick their asses with th/ss terminators.

[LardO'Blood]

Not exactly how to stop a brood but, I fought my Nid friend the other day and to take out his carnifex I just charged it with my command squad then next turn a tactical squad and dreadnought that didn't have anything else to kill. He took out 2 veterans from the command squad but it was worth it.

Mostly any CC oriented unit of 10 models can take a brood of three out IMO. They generally have 2 attacks (the only unit that doesn't is an assault squad and CC scouts which will get chewed up and spat away), are able to use power weapons largely, can toss in a few PF/TH hits. I don't recommend TH/SS, I think a 2/3 mix does much better against carnifexes, 4 wounds and some 3++ saves. Coming out of a land raider crusader they do even more damage, approximately 3 wounds from the twin linked assault cannon and 2 bolter wounds. In general just throw lots of units the carnifexes and they go down without dealing to much damage.

EX:

Vanguard Veteran Squad: 225 Points

Sergeant with relic blade

2 power weapons

1 lightning claw pair

1 power fist

On the charge this gives you 4 S6 power weapon attacks, 12 S4 power weapon attacks (4 of which reroll to wound, cant remember off the top of my head) plus the 3 power fist attacks which are S8 and (unfortunately) initiative 1. Not sure how many points the carnifex brood is but I think this is at around the same amount of points.

[waaanial00]

I did do the numbers and if the Carnifex get the charge in then the TH/SS terminators dont do so well (statistically anyway). Dead by third round unless you have taken wounds off before hand.

 

Main reasons are the extra initiative, which they get on the charge for free now, and their ability to reroll all misses if they are CC.

 

In practice you might get lucky with the saves but there is also the possibility that you wont be.

 

Just pointing out that you may not want TH/SS terminators to be your only tactic.

 

Wan

[Giga]

I did do the numbers and if the Carnifex get the charge in then the TH/SS terminators dont do so well (statistically anyway). Dead by third round unless you have taken wounds off before hand.

 

Main reasons are the extra initiative, which they get on the charge for free now, and their ability to reroll all misses if they are CC.

 

In practice you might get lucky with the saves but there is also the possibility that you wont be.

 

Just pointing out that you may not want TH/SS terminators to be your only tactic.

 

Wan

Carnifexes get this initiative bonus only if they're the ones doing the charging. Considering the fact their effective charge range is 12", and the effective charge range of th/ss termies is 20" (due to land raider), this pretty much means you should be assaulting them, rather then letting them close in (it's what they want, after all).

 

Again, it's enough to shoot down one close-combat carnifex, and the termies are going to murder the remaining two.

 

Against shooty carnifexes, it's even easier, as those things are more expensive while being easier to kill in assault. Even if you take 2-3 rounds to kill them all, it's still good because that's a large chunk of your opponent's points that's stuck in assault rather then shooting.

[Koremu]

You're very rarely going to be able to clear a path to the Carnifex. Certainly not reliably. The Sea Of Gaunts in the way is an issue (and remember you do still need some 3 or 4" of space to deploy out of a Land Raider - you have to be at least 1" from any enemy models).

 

And of course you only go at the same time as the Carnifex and you don't get bonus attacks for charging.