Imperial Armour Vol II from Forgeworld

[wolf363839]

It doesn't specify that the Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, for example, is to only be used in Apocalypse. Are these pods (or anything else in forgeworld books) allowed to be used in tourneys or regular games?

 

This particular Drop Pod costs 50 pts and allows a Dreadnought to assault on the turn in arrives, perfect for most SM armies.

 

Anybody have any knowledge/experience with these???

[wheelballer]

More often than not, ForgeWorld models and/or rules are not allowed in tournaments. The models can be used in a "counts as" sense to be played as a codex model. Most tournaments do not allow ForgeWorld stuff because its not official GW and the rules aren't always fair.

 

However if you're playing a friendly game all you need is permission from your opponent in order to use ForgeWorld stuff.

[Ntin]

Tournaments are free to make up their own rules so no one can say one way or another. Friendly games it is best to ask for your opponent’s permission to use a Forgeworld model. I think that is actually required?

[Hellios]

As people have said tournaments can do what they want. So always check the rules first. I consider FW to be official although lost of people disagree but like any game you can't play if your opponent won't play you and many people get upset if you spring forgeworld on them without warning...

[stinkenheim]

i would appreciate a heads up if it were me and assuming it was a prearranged game rather than just a random game at a gaming club.

if it was unplanned (i.e i was only opponent left at gaming night) then i wouldnt mind either way. there might be a moment of, 'ok, so what does it do... fair enough' but i wouldnt refuse to play you.

 

tournaments is down to organisers discretion but usually they aren't allowed, i think more to make it a balanced playing field for people without the funds rather than anything else but i could be wrong.

 

+edit+ its worth noting the forst two books (the ones whichdon't include variant army lists) make a point in the introduction of stating that you shouldnt feel the need to get permission.

[rat of vengence]

I really like a lot of the Forgeworld models, and having them on the table across from me would be cool. Also, some of the units have a huge amount of character, and add to the variety of the game. That said, some of the units are just plain broken, such as the Lucius Pod, and I wouldn't be keen to play them.

As the others have said, I would ask the opponent rather than assume they don't mind.

 

RoV

[Grey Mage]

Standard Rules: If its not in your codex, opponents permission is a very good idea. Since FW books arent even an official GW publication, it becomes an even better idea.

 

Just like if you were in an RPG group- youd ask to use a 3rd party book before you just showed up with the items/feats/skills on your sheet eh?

[Hfran Morkai]

I've just gotten a copy of Imperial Armour Apocalypse for my birthday and would like to quote a few things it says.

 

First off, though it's called "Apocalypse" it mentions the models are perfectly usable in regular games (tournaments imposing their own rules as if fair) although apocalypse is the best place for them. However IA apocalypse is mentioned as being mainly as a hard copy of updates for the older IA books due to new rules and points costs from GW.

 

 

 

First off, about points based standard games:

 

The problem some players have with Forge World's models in this style of gaming is they do not appear in the codex. This means there is a perception that IA models offer a player using them an unfair advantage, either because of rules or model availability. Our points values tend to be on the high side which is a deliberate

plan...

 

So they try to underpower the models concerned.

 

In the past we have suggested that players ask for consent when using super heavy vehicles and aircraft. This is not so the opponent can say no and stop you using your models but more so you can pre-warn your opponent who can try to do something about it. But players shouldn't expect to use super heavies and aircraft in every game or in smaller games.

 

So giving your opponent warning is fair enough so they can think how to deal with something unusual. Super heavies and fliers are a bit dodgy in regular games, or so it seems.

 

So they are legal, technically you don't need permission but if you try bringing a titan without warning expect to lose a game. Regular vehicles seem perfectly usable in standard games but again I would inform the opponent, also I personally would have to own a model to use it, so I would only myself to the Lucius pattern pod if I had the actual model, not a GW plastic drop pod, the rules go with the models and vice versa. If you want to field something interesting then I would like you to actually invest in the kit or scratch build, rather than buying something that doesn't work. I'm not saying I wouldn't play someone using dread drop pods with infantry pods but I wouldn't enjoy it as much.

[Grand Master Tchezzarus]

I'm reading the FW IA2 Book at the moment, and the IA2 up-date rules at the moment, and I may be blind but no-where could I read thar the Dread may assault on the turn they arrived!

So why is anybody saying that dread may chaege?

Tchezz.

[chromedog]

The newer pattern (lucius) dreadnought pod has the "assault ramp" special rule.

 

This allows the passenger to deep strike and assault out of it on the turn it lands.

[Grand Master Tchezzarus]

Thanks!

As I don't play SM but GK, I was thinking that "drop pod assault" was a reference to the rules for drop pod deployement.

But rereading IA2, and it's update it seem that tactical SM, scouts and dread may select a Lucius pattern drop pod... could they all assault?

[Grey Mage]

So giving your opponent warning is fair enough so they can think how to deal with something unusual. Super heavies and fliers are a bit dodgy in regular games, or so it seems.

 

So they are legal, technically you don't need permission but if you try bringing a titan without warning expect to lose a game. Regular vehicles seem perfectly usable in standard games but again I would inform the opponent, also I personally would have to own a model to use it, so I would only myself to the Lucius pattern pod if I had the actual model, not a GW plastic drop pod, the rules go with the models and vice versa. If you want to field something interesting then I would like you to actually invest in the kit or scratch build, rather than buying something that doesn't work. I'm not saying I wouldn't play someone using dread drop pods with infantry pods but I wouldn't enjoy it as much.

Problem is Mikal, nothing youve quoted, or anyone else for that matter, says it is legal- just that the author feels you shouldnt have to ask for consent but understands why you would.

 

Theyre not legal unless you talk to your opponent about it- and if you talk to your opponent about it you could play as a squat army if they said it was cool.

[Hfran Morkai]

Fair enough Grey Mage, I also hadn't seen the following passage.

 

As far as we are concerned Codexes and their rulebooks are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will. Want to play on a ruined city board using the City of Death rules variants? Fine. Want to play on a ruined city board without using the rules variants, just using the rules as published in the 40K rulebook? Also fine. The two things that matter are that both players know this before they start, and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game. So is City of Death official? You can't use it in a tournament! The Imperial Armour rules are just the same...

 

If I quoted too much feel free to paraphrase mods.

 

I can see them as official, after all GW does own Forge World, would be stupid to create rules you can't use but opponent permission is pretty much essential, otherwise you might lose a player and a friend.

 

I personally would have no issue if someone wants to use FW rules, and in fact hope to find someone who wants to use them in regular games.

[Isiah]

Problem is Mikal, nothing youve quoted, or anyone else for that matter, says it is legal- just that the author feels you shouldnt have to ask for consent but understands why you would.

 

Hmmm so, when something is written as part of the introduction to a rulebook, that seems to me a pretty good indication that that is how the rules as a whole are intended to be played/utilised. Thus, they are legal to use without opponents permission apart from the examples already cited and of course specific permissions being needed for tournaments (though to be fair it's normally in a tourney's rules that FW items can't be used).

 

This is text from the section 'Using this book' at the front of Forge World's IA Vol 2 [para 4 to be precise] that might answer the OPs original question on this book:

 

"In the past we advised players to seek their opponent's permission, but this seems an unsatisfactory solution. [...] Using this 'opponent's permission' system I believe that too often players players object, feeling that their opponent is getting an unfair advantage, which is actually nonsense. By all means, ask permission, but how is this different to organising any game? Your opponent is, by agreeing to play you, giving you permission to use your miniature collection."

 

Although I have an issue with the last sentence [as it gives carte blanche to non WYSIWYG seems to me], the rest is clear.

 

One can then get into an argument about what part of a rulebook constitutes 'the rules', and what part doesn't I guess -- but life's too short. Use your common sense if you think it might cause an issue, but, using the text from the intro as a guide go forth and smite with Lucius Drop Pods, Land Speeder Tempests, Land Raider Helios' blah blah, and have fun :yes:.

 

Cheers

I

[Frosty the Pyro]

I could write a book with the preface of "you can use his if you please in a 40k game"

 

It would not make it legal or offical.

[Hfran Morkai]

I could write a book with the preface of "you can use his if you please in a 40k game"

 

It would not make it legal or offical.

 

But you're not a rules writer for GW or one of it's daughter companies, are you?

 

That's why people can use Forge World stuff, it's another expansion. GW very likely works closely with Forge World and vice versa so they can continue to trade.

[LPetersson]

There was an in-depth, if at times heated, debate on that here...

 

Personally I look at it from this point:

If GTs are GWs own tournaments and they don't allow IA models/rules in their own tournaments, that pretty much settles the matter IMO...

 

Basically, if GW doesn't allow FW rules in their own tournaments, surely that signifies that they don't trust the rules themselves except where both sides agree on it...

[Vanor]

But you're not a rules writer for GW or one of it's daughter companies, are you?

 

But the IA isn't from the writers of GW, it's from the writers from FW. This is not the same thing by any means. No where in the BRB does it say that FW stuff is official, and FW are not allowed in GT or other officially sanctioned GW tourny's... If they're not allowed in GW tourny's then they are clearly not officially supported rules or models.

[Hfran Morkai]

But the IA isn't from the writers of GW, it's from the writers from FW. This is not the same thing by any means. No where in the BRB does it say that FW stuff is official, and FW are not allowed in GT or other officially sanctioned GW tourny's... If they're not allowed in GW tourny's then they are clearly not officially supported rules or models.

 

Why make them then? The whole point of the rules is to allow models to be used. I didn't say they were the same thing, but Forge World is likely directed by GW at some level, hence why it owns Forge World.

 

So whilst not "official" they were created with 40K in mind, they're just as official as any other 40K expansion in my eyes, you don't think that then it's cool. I'll find someone else to game who does agree with using cool models with nifty rules.

 

Is a law applied in one state not official because the country as a whole doesn't enforce it?

[Kronk]

We use them at home games if the entry says something to the effect of "this unit can be taken as a Fast Attack choice in a ____ army."

 

Otherwise, by permission only.

 

I would never show up to a tournament with Forge World stuff without clearing it first. "Hey, Mr. Tournament director? Is Forgeworld Allowed?" Takes 5 minutes out of your day and removes guessing and bitter disappointment on tournament day.

[Vanor]

Why make them then? The whole point of the rules is to allow models to be used.

 

Sure they can be used, but then again so can a couple lumps of sillyputty and a screwdriver if the other guy agreed that I could use that as a stand in for a Predator... It's not a question of if you can play with them, it's a question of if they are official and allowed in tourny's. The OP was asking about using them in standard games and tournaments.

 

In standard games most anything is allowed provided both sides agree to it. Myself I wouldn't have a problem with FW stuff, provided I could see what it did and/or what the rules were before hand.

 

However none of the tourniments I've seen allow FW stuff, including the officially sanctioned GT's. If FW stuff was official, as in you didn't have to ask before using it, then it would have to be allowed in the official GT's no?

 

If GW really wanted to have the FW/IA stuff have that status, then why don't they say so? No where have I ever seen anything from GW stating that IA stuff is considered official rules, and anything in them over ride the basic rules, like it does say regarding the Codex's.

 

For other expansions, it says you can use either rule set or both, but in either case its up to the people playing to agree to which rules are used. So FW stuff at the very least as an expansion would require you discuss it before the game starts if you were going to use the rules from the IA book.

 

So for friendly games, sure no problem. But you do need to at least let the other person know, and of course the other person can simply walk away from the table if he doesn't like FW stuff.

 

But for tourny's no FW is not allowed in any I've seen, including any sort officially sanctioned or ran Games Workshop tourny.

[TheLaughingDreadnought]

There was an in-depth, if at times heated, debate on that here...

 

Personally I look at it from this point:

If GTs are GWs own tournaments and they don't allow IA models/rules in their own tournaments, that pretty much settles the matter IMO...

 

Basically, if GW doesn't allow FW rules in their own tournaments, surely that signifies that they don't trust the rules themselves except where both sides agree on it...

 

Yep, common sense to me.

 

Also I think the new IA allows you to upgrade the chimera turret to an autocannon for 5 pts. No thanks.

[Grey Mage]

This is text from the section 'Using this book' at the front of Forge World's IA Vol 2 [para 4 to be precise] that might answer the OPs original question on this book:

 

"In the past we advised players to seek their opponent's permission, but this seems an unsatisfactory solution. [...] Using this 'opponent's permission' system I believe that too often players players object, feeling that their opponent is getting an unfair advantage, which is actually nonsense. By all means, ask permission, but how is this different to organising any game? Your opponent is, by agreeing to play you, giving you permission to use your miniature collection."

 

Although I have an issue with the last sentence [as it gives carte blanche to non WYSIWYG seems to me], the rest is clear.

 

One can then get into an argument about what part of a rulebook constitutes 'the rules', and what part doesn't I guess -- but life's too short. Use your common sense if you think it might cause an issue, but, using the text from the intro as a guide go forth and smite with Lucius Drop Pods, Land Speeder Tempests, Land Raider Helios' blah blah, and have fun :).

 

Cheers

I

I feel your drawing the incorrect conclusions- the author does not at all state you can use them without permission. He states that he feels/the rules are- that your opponent gives consent as part of organizing the game.

 

It does not state they are standard choices, or that you can in fact use them without opponents permission- simply that the models may be used. Note the models are not the same as FW rules- because FW models are no more official than their rules without such a statement.

 

People will argue that Vulkan doesnt have a twinlinked heavy flamer, but theyll say this gives them carte blanche on forgeworld rules in standard games? For shame!

 

But the IA isn't from the writers of GW, it's from the writers from FW. This is not the same thing by any means. No where in the BRB does it say that FW stuff is official, and FW are not allowed in GT or other officially sanctioned GW tourny's... If they're not allowed in GW tourny's then they are clearly not officially supported rules or models.

 

Why make them then? The whole point of the rules is to allow models to be used. I didn't say they were the same thing, but Forge World is likely directed by GW at some level, hence why it owns Forge World.

 

So whilst not "official" they were created with 40K in mind, they're just as official as any other 40K expansion in my eyes, you don't think that then it's cool. I'll find someone else to game who does agree with using cool models with nifty rules.

 

Is a law applied in one state not official because the country as a whole doesn't enforce it?

And you dont ask before bringing in things from expansions? You casually set up with warhounds in 1500pt games? You set up bastions with working turrets and AV 14 in standard missions? You field IG platoons with your SWs and ignore the FOC completely?

 

Just because its an expansion to the rules- official or not- doesnt mean its part of a "normal" game of 40k.

[King Tiger]

Also I think the new IA allows you to upgrade the chimera turret to an autocannon for 5 pts. No thanks.

yeah because the difference between a multi laser and autocannon is so over the top that it snaps the game in two :rolleyes:

 

tournaments make up whatever stupid rules they like and you must play by them, they and most players have this backwards logic way of thinking that everything produced by FW is overpowered incarnations of cheddar in its purest form, absolutely everything, from thunderhawks all the way down to autocannon turrets for a transport, and that everything in a codex is perfectly balanced and in no way overpowered at all, after all that is impossible right?

 

depending on what imperial armour your using depends on if something is allowed or not allowed legally without permission, and the new imperial armour updates from FW tell you nothing of either, so these days you do basically have to choose yourself and between your opponent, its got nothing to do with them being illegal or legal from scratch, its just your not told, which would be useful.

 

oh and if anyone ever gives the utter rubbish about FW not being legal because its not GW, tell the bone headed moron to read the copyright in any imperial armour book and who that copyright is made out to and what it extends to, GW owns all the rules in any imperial armour, because GW owns FW, because GW and FW are 1 and the same, so anyone trying to ustify there reasons with that old Bull has no idea what there on about and has most likely never picked up a FW book in there life.

[DuncanSpence]

I think Vanor summed it up for me. Turn up with a nicely presented army list with everything defined, the appopriate FW book, WYSIWYG models to work out what's what and 15 minutes to do a quick scan read and it's game on.

 

Dump a shoe box full of unpainted placcie drop pods with all of the doors glued shut and tell me half of them are 'lucius pattern' and the other half a have wheels and count as fast, but no, you forgot your books but you do know everything about them and it's definitely only 1500 points and I'd say thanks but no thanks.

 

I've got limited knowledge of tournaments, but every FAQ I've seen clearly states (usually in about para 2) that Forge World expansions are not allowed - no need to ask, they tell you.

 

I've also found that my local Games Workshop doesn't really like them - they don't like you playing games with things that they can't sell to other people in the shop (Blood Bowl and Epic included) and I think that this breeds a lack of trust in whether thet are 'official' or not.