Imperial Armour Vol II from Forgeworld

[stinkenheim]

to me the main reason that FW is not allowed in tournaments is simply because not everyone is able to purchase them. Things in your codex are normally pretty affordable (te most you'll spend is £35 on a landraider equivilant model) whereas with FW alot of the vehicles are £80-90+.

 

thats my way of thinking, its nothing to do with are they legal or balanced and everything to do with making sure everyone is playing at the same level and the winners aren't simply tose with the biggest wallets and shiniest toys.

 

don't forget there are many things in codexes which are more ovepowered and potentially broken than many FW items. Simplest thing to do is give your opponent a heads up, and should they ask what the thing does tell them. Don't spring it on them and don't assume most will let you play without prior knowledge, but also don't refuse because you are scared. Have the balls to man up and play a game with a friend, if you lose you lose its no big deal. If you feel the rules are overpowered or unbalanced say so after playing the game and come to an agreement but dont just refuse out of hand.

 

With the previous IG dex i used a griffon every game, the only way i could do that was by using IA and i got the FW griffon. i never asked my opponents permission, i told my small group when i was buying it and said i would be using it in most games and left it at that. there was never an issue. a similiar thing happened when i used the twin-linked heavy bolter upgrade for a chimera's turret on my HSO's chimera. I converted the model and never sought prmission and no one ever had an issue. Were they overpowered, no, they fitted the theme of my army (i played a cityfight force so had no long range artillery ad very few tanks/heavy weapons) i also never lost a game with them and i doubt that was beause I used some FW models. Using IA was the only way i was able to get these options in my army, would you guys really refuse to play because of a Griffon Heavy Mortar and if so, do you really think i would want to redo my list to play against you?

 

Heck I've played many games (pre-apoc) where my opponent used 3 baneblades and I never had a problem with them. I played a game with nids and my stealers destroyed a shadowsword first turn so they are obviously not overpowered. A friend of mine has been talking about getting a megadread for apoc and i pretty much told him theres no way hes onl using it in apoc games, i wanna kill it in a normal fight too.

 

The majority of things in it aren't broken and many are over priced, the only way you'll find this out is t play against them so unless you have don't sit there moaning about the injustice of it all.

 

So basically what i'm saying is inform your opponent, but don't seek permission if you have splashed the cash on a cool model.

and if you are the person playing against it, don't refuse out of ignorance or fear, try playing against it and see if its really as bad as you say or think.

[Grey Mage]

The point isnt wether they are broken or not though- its wether there is any communication between the players going on.

 

If you walk up to me, having never played before and say "hey, want to throw down 1500 on table three?" Ill probly be up for it... and if you randomly decide its Planetstrike, or that your playing an IA list, without saying anything to me ahead of time Im going to be insulted, and simple decline the game.

 

Why? Because I came to play one game and you brought another... and you never bothered to say anything.

 

Do I think FW is overpowered? Not really, some things are very odd, or over the top... but nothing horrendous really.. well, maybe the lucious. Do I still think they are consent only from the text in the books, common playstyles, GTs, and past history? Yes.

[Rik Lightstar]

on the topic of FW and GW being the same thing, clearly that's not the case, GW feels it NEEDS the separation provided by it being a separate company albeit owned by the same group so that there is an easy way to define what is and isn't viable. Apocalypse stuff isn't expected in a standard game, neither should FW.

[Vanor]

Most FW models wouldn't be an issue, as long as they're being used with Codex rules.

 

So if you put a FW dread down with the normal weapon choices from the C:SM, then I don't think anyone would have much place to complain or comment. It may look nicer or at least different, but it's still just a Dread or Ven Dread... If you were to put down a FW Rhino or anything else really that's just a different model but still using the Codex rules, it shouldn't mater.

 

However if you were to put down a Deathstorm drop pod with the whirlwind missile launchers, then that's something different because that is not in any official codex.

 

The IA book, may be published by GW, and given the official status of a 40k Expansion, but all expansion rules have to be agreed upon by both players before they can be used. According to the image they have of the latest IA book, it has the 40k logo with expansion under the logo, which could and IMO does mean it's an official expansion for the 40k game.

 

But again like all other expansions that means including it is something you have to discuss with the other guy before you start play. Just like you would for City of Death, or Apoc games/rules.

[Hfran Morkai]

And you dont ask before bringing in things from expansions? You casually set up with warhounds in 1500pt games? You set up bastions with working turrets and AV 14 in standard missions? You field IG platoons with your SWs and ignore the FOC completely?

 

Just because its an expansion to the rules- official or not- doesnt mean its part of a "normal" game of 40k.

 

I think we might be misunderstanding each other, I only claim that the rules are workable and official. You can be sure if I want to use the rules I will ask my opponent and if they say no then I'll live and play a regular game. So whilst not a regular thing to use I would certainly hope to get some use out of kits I've invested in, more so than an irregular Apoc game.

 

I believe the book is simply asking people not to be asses when someone wants to try something out for a laugh, give them a game at a later date when you've had time to see what you can take yourself.

 

And to your questions, no I do not, though I would like the ability to use say a Siege Dreadnought in a regular sized game on occasion, where I wouldn't even be making use of most of it's rules.

[King Tiger]

I believe the book is simply asking people not to be asses when someone wants to try something out for a laugh

unfortunately impossible these days <_<

 

means I'd probably never get games with allot of people here though, since my army list is entirely from FW...oh well

[Grey Mage]

I believe the book is simply asking people not to be asses when someone wants to try something out for a laugh

unfortunately impossible these days <_<

 

means I'd probably never get games with allot of people here though, since my army list is entirely from FW...oh well

See, and in my club wed just expect you to mention it when you were invited- "by the way, my main army is a FW list, Ive got the books of course" and wed make sure everyone was aware of what was going on.

 

The problem is when 3 Dreads drop in, shoot, and then all of a sudden your opponent says "and Ill assault your Dire Avengers with my Ironclad" when no one mentioned you wanted to use IDupdate II.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

On the subject of "If GW Tournaments don't use them they can't be legal..."

 

Thats a fallacy, because as has been stated some FW rules can be a little OTT but this is compensated for by points cost (though perhaps not to a suitable degree).

 

A tournament is supposed to be a balance playing field, because it isn't fair to give advantages to certain players or armies.

 

I Have IA 1-4.. Which gives units to the IG, ==][==, GK, SM, Tau and Tyranids.

Where are the bonuses for the Dark Eldar or Necrons?

 

If it isn't everyone getting a boost, then no one should.

 

 

In friendly games it's a matter of simple etiquette to say, when asked or asking for a game, "I use some Forgeworld rules, is that ok?". Then its up to you both to compromise.

[Sparhawk]

on the topic of FW and GW being the same thing, clearly that's not the case, GW feels it NEEDS the separation provided by it being a separate company albeit owned by the same group so that there is an easy way to define what is and isn't viable. Apocalypse stuff isn't expected in a standard game, neither should FW.

 

I'd say that the true reason for the separations comes less from the game side and more from the business and marketing side. It's all about branding and brand management. FW is known for making high quality resin kits, models,etc. that consumers are willing to pay a premium price to own. It has real brand power and in some places FW models border on a status symbol (not to say that skilled scratch built models don't bring in their own form of status as the architechts are usually admired for their skilled worksmanship). The FW brand allows GW to try out new ideas for models and mechanics while shielding themselves from potential consumer backlash over models or mechanics that are perceived to unbalance the game.

 

Overall, from a business standpoint, it's usually good to not merge brands even if both are making functionally the same or similar products that are meant to be compatible. My company owns several major baked good brands but we don't merge them all and instead operate them as separate branding entities that are all linked at the VP level and above.

 

I'm sorry if this isn't completely on topic but I just thought it would be a different way to consider the relationship between GW and FW.

 

Edit: Also I personally view IA as an expansion and treat it just like playing a City Fight or Planetstrike game so it is usually something at least discussed beforehand. My friends have carte blanche to use them in our games but that is an understanding we've come to as a group.

[Frosty the Pyro]

On the subject of "If GW Tournaments don't use them they can't be legal..."

 

Thats a fallacy, because as has been stated some FW rules can be a little OTT but this is compensated for by points cost (though perhaps not to a suitable degree).

 

A tournament is supposed to be a balance playing field, because it isn't fair to give advantages to certain players or armies.

 

I Have IA 1-4.. Which gives units to the IG, ==][==, GK, SM, Tau and Tyranids.

Where are the bonuses for the Dark Eldar or Necrons?

 

If it isn't everyone getting a boost, then no one should.

 

 

In friendly games it's a matter of simple etiquette to say, when asked or asking for a game, "I use some Forgeworld rules, is that ok?". Then its up to you both to compromise.

 

This is a very valid point. there is a metric :cusstonne of IA optoins for guard, Marines, and chaos (in that order). A small amount for eldar, tau, orks and nids. Yet there is a grand total of 2 dark eldar choices (which are just different versions of the same thing), and no necron. And even the IA apoc books arnt much better (they have ork options though, and a handfull of necron formations, but most of their nid and tau stuff is just strait copy pasted from either the GW Apoc book or thier respective regular IA book, and its still Guard, Marines, Chaos

 

Actualy I may be confusing the IA apoc chaos options with the regular IA, though there are at least a handful of regulare IA chaos.

 

 

But realy, as for if something is official or not its very simple. Is it in the codex? Wether or not it is offical will be the same answer. Though as already stated, anything you can get your openent to agree with is fine.

[Hellios]

Remember anyone not allowing you to use FW stuff because it is FW is breaking rule one in the BBB.

 

Also remember making a cheesed out list of doom without giving the opponent any warning just so you can win, without giving their enjoyment any consideration is also breaking rule 1 of the BBB.

 

The BBB has spoken!

 

Also that codex response is rubbish because on that note none of the expansions are official... despite the fact they are official expansions, if GW was to bring back IA then they would also not be official even if it was stated they are official. If they (GW) released a book that updated existing codices and added new units to them... that also wouldn't be official, hell the FAQs and Erratas are also not official. The good side of this argument is we can now automatically discount the tournament rulings argument because those ruling are obviously not official (which I agree with anyway).

[Kronk]

...bunch of stuff...

 

 

Look, rule 1 is have fun. If I show up to a FLGS for a casual game and some random bloke says "hey, I'll play you. 2000 points?" I set up my army, and then other guy drops down super heavies or flyers or titans, I'm not going to be the one having fun. However, if he had said "Hey, I'll play you. By the way, I have some of my apoc stuff. Is that cool?" Then, I can at least respect him for being upfront with me. Maybe that's fine, or maybe I'm not in the mood for that. I at least have the opportunity to say no and find another game BEFORE putting all my crap on the table and setting up terrain and so forth.

 

In the Planetary Empires campaign we are playing, we allow the forgeworld stuff, so long as their entry says "This unit can be used in a Codex: ____ army as a HQ/Heavy/Whatever choice." But we've all agreed to that ahead of time. This is no real surprise as we have all agreed it is fair game. To be honest, I like the stuff, and fully support its use. But I also understand that Forgeworld stuff is OPTIONAL.

 

To make the jump from that agreement of Forgeworld stuff among friends in a league/campaign to a blanket statement of "I can use my Forgeworld stuff whenever I want and you suck if you don't let me!" is a huge leap. One that isn't intended, IMHO.

 

Finally, for tournaments, if the tournament organizer says "No Forgeworld," don't show to the tournament fully expecting to get to use your Imperial Armory stuff. You were warned. Don't waste people's time crying or bitching about it.

[Hellios]

...bunch of stuff...

 

 

Look, rule 1 is have fun. If I show up to a FLGS for a casual game and some random bloke says "hey, I'll play you. 2000 points?" I set up my army, and then other guy drops down super heavies or flyers or titans, I'm not going to be the one having fun. However, if he had said "Hey, I'll play you. By the way, I have some of my apoc stuff. Is that cool?" Then, I can at least respect him for being upfront with me. Maybe that's fine, or maybe I'm not in the mood for that. I at least have the opportunity to say no and find another game BEFORE putting all my crap on the table and setting up terrain and so forth.

 

In the Planetary Empires campaign we are playing, we allow the forgeworld stuff, so long as their entry says "This unit can be used in a Codex: ____ army as a HQ/Heavy/Whatever choice." But we've all agreed to that ahead of time. This is no real surprise as we have all agreed it is fair game. To be honest, I like the stuff, and fully support its use. But I also understand that Forgeworld stuff is OPTIONAL.

 

To make the jump from that agreement of Forgeworld stuff among friends in a league/campaign to a blanket statement of "I can use my Forgeworld stuff whenever I want and you suck if you don't let me!" is a huge leap. One that isn't intended, IMHO.

 

Finally, for tournaments, if the tournament organizer says "No Forgeworld," don't show to the tournament fully expecting to get to use your Imperial Armory stuff. You were warned. Don't waste people's time crying or bitching about it.

 

Oh my arguement was about if it is official or not. What a tourney organiser says has nothing to do with it being official, the same with campaign rules or house-rules at clubs. You know what people say they aint going to have fun against Super-heavies and what not but I've had them dumped on me by surprise and although I don't approve of dumping them by surprise on people I've played, enjoyed myself and won. If your not in the mood for it it's no different than if I want to play 40k and you want to play fantasy, the fact people want to play fantasy doesn't suddenly make 40k unofficial or me evil for wanting to play it.

 

This entire game system is optional, innocence proves nothing, everything you have been told is a lie, even in death I have been served.

 

Its the same as people who wouldn't play me because I had my eldar army on me... they are losers, scared of eldar boo hoo fine don't play, you weren't worth playing anyway... you can draw lines where ever you want but in the end all lines are imaginary.

[Isiah]

What a tourney organiser says has nothing to do with it being official,

 

No but it does answer part of the OPs question.

[Grey Mage]

Remember anyone not allowing you to use FW stuff because it is FW is breaking rule one in the BBB.

 

Also remember making a cheesed out list of doom without giving the opponent any warning just so you can win, without giving their enjoyment any consideration is also breaking rule 1 of the BBB.

 

The BBB has spoken!

 

Also that codex response is rubbish because on that note none of the expansions are official... despite the fact they are official expansions, if GW was to bring back IA then they would also not be official even if it was stated they are official. If they (GW) released a book that updated existing codices and added new units to them... that also wouldn't be official, hell the FAQs and Erratas are also not official. The good side of this argument is we can now automatically discount the tournament rulings argument because those ruling are obviously not official (which I agree with anyway).

*scratches head* I cant tell if your being obtuse, or just ignorant, or trying to show a point through sarcasm.... smilies?

 

Apocalypse, Planetstrike, Cities of Death... and soon Battle Missions are "official" but of them, only the last appears as if it will integrate into standard 40k. One cannot throw down apocalypse formations in normal 40k at will, and randomly declaring a ruin in your deployment zone has a power generator in it is likely to get you laughed at- with good reason.

 

But all four of those expansions have something on them that the FW rules dont- the ability to say "we were written by games workshop". Checked a copy of IA 1? No GW logos on that cover, just alot of cool fluff and some interesting rules that they were allowed to make, but have never been endorsed as part of the core game. Planetstrike for instance, is official- and not an adendum to the codex, but rather to the core rulebook.

 

Do FW books talk about how to include themin games of 40k or one of its expansions? Yes. Why is that if theyre not official? Because if you want to use them through mutual consent your going to need that information to make the most of these rules.

[rat of vengence]

Its the same as people who wouldn't play me because I had my eldar army on me... they are losers, scared of eldar boo hoo fine don't play, you weren't worth playing anyway... you can draw lines where ever you want but in the end all lines are imaginary.

So if I didn't feel like playing against FW stuff, the broken drop pods for example, and said so, according to you that makes me one of the

losers, scared of eldar boo hoo fine don't play, you weren't worth playing anyway...

does it?

 

What a sad way of looking at things. ;)

 

RoV

[Hellios]

Its the same as people who wouldn't play me because I had my eldar army on me... they are losers, scared of eldar boo hoo fine don't play, you weren't worth playing anyway... you can draw lines where ever you want but in the end all lines are imaginary.

So if I didn't feel like playing against FW stuff, the broken drop pods for example, and said so, according to you that makes me one of the

losers, scared of eldar boo hoo fine don't play, you weren't worth playing anyway...

does it?

 

What a sad way of looking at things. :lol:

 

RoV

 

Well if you started playing against someone and you put down your daemon prince and they raged quit... would you think that was cool behaviour? If you don't want to play that is fine. If you don't want to play because you don't want to fine, don't like the other guy and the way he plays fine... but yes I think if you start weeping and raging because you don't like what he uses... then yes you are a loser. I come from a background where we play fog of war so you might very well not know what army your playing against let alone its composition, you don't check lists, you don't inform people what is in what transport (although you have to be able to prove what's in what) unless it's open topped. All you have do is explain anything that might be unclear or mis-leading. This normally comes down to wargear... but if your all WYSIWYG even this isn't a problem.

 

Maybe this is why I don't care if people throw a surprise.

 

Greymage Sarcasm drips from my tongue like a black ichor poisoning everything I touch :'( but regardless I disagree with what you define as official, and while I may disagree with what you say by God I'll... wait actually screw it I'm not going to sacrifice myself to protect your right.

[King Tiger]

Look, rule 1 is have fun. If I show up to a FLGS for a casual game and some random bloke says "hey, I'll play you. 2000 points?" I set up my army, and then other guy drops down super heavies or flyers or titans, I'm not going to be the one having fun.

although you could point out his list is illegal as super heavies require a second formation, which is 2500pts minimum, also they would not follow apocalypse rules they follow 40k rules, and flyers are far from game breaking, a single thunderbolt for example will probably never do as much as a leman russ.

 

although I'd have allot more fun playing against a Titan in 2000pts than I would a slaanesh lash/obliterator list, which is probably going to cost less than a warhound and do far more damage

 

I'd prefer to fight against a baneblade than against 3 leman russ, who cost less than a baneblade and throw out allot more firepower.

 

I'd prefer to fight against 3 flyers than I would 9 land speeders with assasult cannons.

 

the only people who complain about FW stuff are the people who have no idea what the rules for them are because they never bother to look

 

I've also always found the argument of "you shouldn't use them because not everyone can afford them" to be quite pathetic, I can't afford to buy a baneblade with all my other projects, does that mean I can disallow people to ever use them?, I can't afford a fully converted 5 man unit of those wolf riders all converted from canis, so can I stop anyone else from using them because of that?, its the same logic

[DuncanSpence]

I come from a background where we play fog of war so you might very well not know what army your playing against let alone its composition,

 

But I don't and as an outsider coming into your environment for the first time it would be nice to be told your house rules before I commit to a game (you do that don't you?), I might decide that format of game not for me (I'm not that experienced), does that make me a 'loser'? Does that make you more committed to 40K than me?

 

If you came to my group, would you start weeping and raging because we asked you to show us your army list and maybe even talk us through the units that we haven't come across before - our house rules stick more closely to GWs recommendations because that's our background.

 

Just like taking a quick look at the terrain on the board and checking that both players are happy what's what instead of having to dice off over a vital move half way through the battle because you can't agree whether it's difficult/dangerous/impassable - it's about communicating before you start so that both sides are confident they can have an enjoyable game.

 

I'd be happy to take on FW stuff, but what I don't like is people who think that their word must be taken as law just because they own an expansion that I do not and they can't be bothered to bring any documentation to support their understanding of the rules. This isn't a dig at FW players but at anyone who doesn't bring some sort of army list and the relevant codex/expansion (or dice, or rulebooks. or templates...)! Rant over :)

 

but if your all WYSIWYG even this isn't a problem

All the WYSIWYG in the world doesn't help a special rule that cannot be represented or if you can't see the models before they arrive (my drop pods allow the occupant to assault on the turn they land, or this unit has Furious Charge, for example).

 

Really like the idea of 'fog of war' though and might propose it as an option!

[Isiah]

the only people who complain about FW stuff are the people who have no idea what the rules for them are because they never bother to look

 

I think that's a bit unfair KT. There is a real problem with accessibility. With books costing £50 or so not everyone/club can afford them.

 

 

 

Remember the OPs question was about asking whether:

 

"these pods (or anything else in forgeworld books) allowed to be used in tourneys or regular games?"

 

It seems to me the answer is YES. Qualified with:

- Providing tournament organisers allows the use of the FW models and rules;

- Providing an opponent is OK with you using the FW models and rules;

 

The issue seems to be: Should you tell your opponent pre-game that you will be using FW rules. FW themselves seem to think no, but recommend asking anyway just to be polite. This doesn't hold much water for some here though as they don't recoginise FW rules as being 'official'. As from GW there is no official stance on this one way or the other.

 

Cheers

I

[stinkenheim]

i dislike the idea of shoing my opponent my army list before battles, sometimes i have ideas/surprises in terms of what i have planned for certain units and its not always good to have the opponent aware of these. thats not to say i won't go through what unis are and the basic wargear they have as i deploy, 'oh this guy is my wolf lord, thunder hammer, storm shield, saga of th bear' for example, but ofteni have things written on my list to remind me as to the units purpose. for example whe i play fantasy i usually have things like 'caster/warmachine hunter' or 'hold the flank' written next to units to remind me of the roles i want them to do during battles and i don't feel that i should be forced to show my list before hand.

certainly if you asked what a certain rule does i would tell you, or if you weren't sure what rules a unit had and asked me i would tell you. likewise if after the game you felt you would like to see my list then i would have no hesitatins showing it to you then.

i personally don't want to know the ins and outs of my opponents composition before i setup up, i prefer to be suprised by someones plan or use of a unit during a game.

 

as i have said before, if i took forgeworld stuff against someone i dont often play it would be mentioned in the build up to the game. i wouldn't be seeking permission, merely giving you a heads up.

however i don't want to take things like the lucius drop pod or superheavies, in fact with my space wolves/marines in general the only vehicle i have ever taken from FW was the land raider prometheus in a crimson fists army. for my IG the majority of units i used to take have now been included in the codex as standard and as such i don't take as many for those either. occassionaly i may take a destroyer tank hunter (after reading about it in gaunts ghosts) but i am fully aware that a Vanquisher with Tank Commander Prask is much more effective its just not as cool imo.

I own a thunderbolt fighter, and i would like to tak it in normal games but the truth is it is overpowered, and fighting against orks as i often do, the only being hit on 6's rule isn't too much of a hinderance for them, lol. combined with low armour values, the leman russ is not just a cheaper option but a better one.

 

@ king tiger the comment i made about not everyone being able to afford FW items was inr egards to tournaments and why they are not usually allowed. tournaments are meant to be where people fight on an equal footing (fair enough the lists are min/maxed and the people power gamers or at least in that environment) and with FW not everyone can afford it and some rules are very wonky. its often seen as a fairer solution to ban all FW models to prevent those with the biggest wallets having the biggest advantage. I was not refering to normal games, and i agree with you, a thunderbolt will never get its points back.

[King Tiger]

the only people who complain about FW stuff are the people who have no idea what the rules for them are because they never bother to look

 

I think that's a bit unfair KT. There is a real problem with accessibility. With books costing £50 or so not everyone/club can afford them.

you can download 1 and 2 for free from GW, and we all know there are sites out there you can download the rest, no point being ignorant and denying it, and your opponent can ask to see your copy to see the stats of what your using.

 

not having access is an excuse for the weak and lazy.

ban all FW models to prevent those with the biggest wallets having the biggest advantage. I was not refering to normal games

so still by that logic ban 9 oblit and 2 daemon prince lists, thats £144I can't afford that, so why should I have to fight it?

[stinkenheim]

lol, i can see why you have a reputation on the boards.

 

if you read my earlier thread as well as my most recent, i was making a point that the most expenisve models in almost every codex come in at around the £35 mark. forgeworld models (not the ven dreads) start at around £60+. thats double the cost of any other single model in a codex.

i am not saying 'ban anything thats expensive so only the cheapest army can compete' and you know that full well. i am making the point that not everyone can drop £60-100 on a single model and as such tournaments often prevent the usage of said models to ensure that people are on a more level footing. it helps prevent those with the biggest wallets and shiniest toys from dominating tournaments.

 

the comment you make about 9 oblits and 2 DPs, well thats the bulk of an army, add in about another £100 for troops, transports and fancy bits and thats about you done. for an entire army, you are paying just over twice the cost of a single FW vehicle. do you see where i am coming from?

[King Tiger]

so if someone brought the old resin Valkyrie from FW they now have an advantage over someone who brought the GW version because it costs more?.

 

just because something costs allot of money doesn't mean its good in the game, why do you think super heavies suck in basic 40k, they don't suddenly become overpowering because you spent allot of money on them.

 

banning something because it costs allot is stupid, but then tournaments are the most pathetic things on earth, they have no idea what there doing, and there made up rules are based off stupid opinions made by people without a clue

[Grey Mage]

the only people who complain about FW stuff are the people who have no idea what the rules for them are because they never bother to look

 

I think that's a bit unfair KT. There is a real problem with accessibility. With books costing £50 or so not everyone/club can afford them.

you can download 1 and 2 for free from GW, and we all know there are sites out there you can download the rest, no point being ignorant and denying it, and your opponent can ask to see your copy to see the stats of what your using.

 

not having access is an excuse for the weak and lazy.

ban all FW models to prevent those with the biggest wallets having the biggest advantage. I was not refering to normal games

so still by that logic ban 9 oblit and 2 daemon prince lists, thats £144I can't afford that, so why should I have to fight it?

You cant ask to see a copy of rules you dont know exist- if you didnt tell your opponent you brought the book to play the rules how will they know this option is available?

 

No, the burden is on the player bringing the unusual rules set into a game to provide the information that it exists.

 

While those sites do exist, and I know many who have access to them I know others who do not- either because they dont feel comfortable with copywrite infringement, live with their parents and cant get a torrent downloader, or dont own a computer because they spent that $500 on little plastic men to fight me with.

 

Is it such a horrible thing to have to ask your opponent if hes cool with you using a supplement? Will it really ruin your day?

 

Hell, Im not even asking you to display your army list or tell me exactly what FW rules you want to use- just wich book, the general heads up your doing it, and confirmation that you have a copy of the information on you.