Combi-Predators usefulness?

[templargdt]

I think my Blood Ravens need some more long-ranged firepower to destroy transports and monsterous creatures with the new Tyranids. So, I looked over the codex and I think the options are either Combi-Predators or Devastator squads. To me, the Devastators are just too expensive. I think the Combi-Predator is the way to go.

 

But in over a year of playing 40K I have yet to see anyone field one. Ever. Why? Have people given up on them and just focused on multimeltas to blow up vehicles?

[minigun762]

I think alot of it is that people overlook the power of the Autocannon. They see it and see an anti-infantry weapon. What it really is is an anti-transport weapon and since 5th Edition is all about transports, its really coming into its own.

 

There has been a spam of Meltaguns and such to handle the Land Raider and while the Combi-Predator is a bad choice for shooting Land Raiders, it gives you that all important ability to kill transports/walkers/light armor from turn 1 where as Melta weapons needs a turn or three to get within range.

[DevianID]

I have mentioned in the past how the combi-pred is by far the best pred for 5th ed marines. Basicly, heavy bolters are garbage in the current edition, and the TLLC turret is vastly too expensive compared to the autocannon (and versus transports the autocannon is better anyway).

 

Since you also mentioned Blood Ravens, the combi-pred is even fluffy as the ravens were disallowed the predator annihilator in the previous dex, but the combi-pred was fine.

[Brother_Kluft]

Just keep in mind the autocannon wont really do that well against nid monsters. 2 shots x 2/3 to hit x 2/3 to wound x 1/3 fail saves = 30% chance to wound. If it has any cover at all (a'la venomthrope) this 30% will be a lot worse. Autocannons are good vs av 11-12, vs 3+ save not so good.

[DevianID]

Brother_Kluft, you are very incorrect about autocannons versus nids.

 

Autocannon: 2 attacks, wounds t6 on a 3+, they save on a 3+, autocannon expected wounds = .3 with or without cover! Venomthrope makes no difference.

Lascannon: 1 attack, wounds t6 on a 2+, no save or 5+/4+ cover save, expected wounds = .55 without cover, .37 with venomthrope save, .278 with regular cover save.

 

So, considering that tyrant guard will always allow a tyrant a cover save, and with a staggered wall the hive guard in front of MCs, or tyrants in front of MCs, grant a 4+ save to those behind them, versus a smart nid player the autocannon is a completely fine weapon--and in many situations even better than a las cannon!

 

Also, the Hive Guard (and spore pod, and harpy--but who would want that thing!) only have a 4+ armor save anyway, so the autocannon will always be superior versus the Hive guard that almost everyone is sure to take.

[DerekLee688]

2xTyphoons are better than devestators and I say gives Combi-Preds a run for their money. Equal number of shots but two are better than autocannon in every way, the ability to focus on horde, may fire alot more guns on the go, and you get twice the hit points

[Giga]

Combi-predators are great, and are IMHO awesome in all-comers lists.

 

- they're extremely cheap for what they do (120 pts)

- they can make short work of pretty much any transport in the game

- they can reliably pop wounds in monstrous creatures

- they can inflict instant death on things like nobz, tyranid warriors, MEQ with more then one wound, etc.

- even when unable to shoot, they can ram enemy vehicles for some nice damage

 

I have one, and it always does a good job. I feel it's way better then both a 3-las predator, and the dakkapred.

 

That being said, I feel the best predator out there is still baal pred. ;)

[DevianID]

In reference to typhoons versus combipreds, a few points.

 

First, 4 typhoons = 3 combi preds for the same points, not 2 to 1 as mentioned.

Second, taking more than 3 typhoons in a list means at least 2 must be squadron-ed, and squadrons make the same model more fragile, thus reducing its utility.

Third, while typhoons are better versus horde, they are worse versus gun line and other armor when getting shot at. Typhoons are easier to shake/stun, more weapon types (bolters), but have the same max range. It takes 1 lascannon hit to put a result on a typhoon, but it takes 2 lascannon hits to put a result on a predator 13 armor.

 

As for equal point mathhammer, 3 combipreds get 6 las cannon and 6 autocannon shots. 4 typhoons get 8 missile launcher and 12 heavy bolter shots.

Combipreds versus av10: 5.33 pens 1.33 glance, versus av 12 2.67 pens 1.33 glances, versus t6 3+ armor 3.33 (no FNP) + .888 (with FNP)

Typhoon versus av10: 4.88 pens 2.22 glances versus av 12 1.78 pen .89 glances, versus t6 3+ armor 4.44 (with FNP) +.888 (with FNP)

 

As the math shows, combipreds, point for point, always cause more pen results versus any armor type. They also cause more glances versus av12 and above. Against nid MC's, the las cannons will be more effective at killing FNP beasties like the tervigon but the typhoon will be better at killing non-FnP beasties... about an equal trade.

 

So, while the typhoon is a great multirole vehicle, the combipred outshines it when trying to kill vehicles, and when trying to survive long range return fire. Because most metagames around me that I fear are the long range mech armies (cough guard/maxOD cough) I vote for combi-preds so I can go toe to toe with them better.

[templargdt]

Thanks Devian, good mathhammer. I wonder why I don't see more Predators then. I'm currently working on a on Ironclad/Drop pod, maybe I'll pick up a predator next.

[minigun762]

I wonder why I don't see more Predators then.

I think its because its not sexy like the Ironclad or Land Raider and its not a standard loadout like the Dakka Predator. What it is is a great support unit for cheap.

[DerekLee688]

Ha, I've thougt about running two of each; combi preds and typhoons. However, I wouldn't think of running three of either. Combi pred has everything but mobility and utility. Idealy I'd rather compare Devistators to typhoons.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I went from running 2 combi preds to running 2 annihilators and a dakka in my 2k all comers list. i also run a drop pod ironclad somebody mentioned that. I think landraiders are overrated, although still a force from time to time.

 

preds have never let me down, i love popping a LR with annihilator and stranding a termie squad theres 500+ points wasted game over

[deepstrike]

I have used a combi pred for years in my chaos space marine army and it has always performed well no matter the army. Been playing against friends tyranids lately and they do a great job hammering away at all those 6 wound monstrous creatures, hive guard and instakilling warriors. I play against friends mech/drop spacewolves army as well who uses one to good effect.

[GreatEscape_13]

Yeah, Autocannon with Lascannon sponsons is a definitely solid choice for vehicle busting and monstrous critters. Very useful for all the reasons others pointed out.

 

So to continue the discussion... Anyone ever run the opposite combi-Pred? Twin lascannons and heavy bolter sponsons? Can we think of moments when it would be useful?

 

Maybe along with a mechanized list, facing a mechanized list. You want it to move and shoot vehicles, but then later be able to do something when all transports are empty? Seems an expensive choice to do so, but I'm just spitballing here (I am so addicted to the three whirlwind approach at the moment that it's rather moot).

 

Cheers.

[minigun762]

So to continue the discussion... Anyone ever run the opposite combi-Pred? Twin lascannons and heavy bolter sponsons? Can we think of moments when it would be useful?

 

I know Chillin has used it and had good success with it. For him it plays alot like a Dakka Predator (you're only trading 1 shot for TLing). Having said that, I think its the worst of the loadouts because its too scatterbrained for me. The focus of the Dakka Predator/Combi-Predator and Las Predator are all obvious whereas the reverse Combi Players more like a weird reverse Land Raider without a transport. To be honest I'd rather just use Razorbacks if I was Codex or Oblits if I was Chaos.