Pre-heresy Loyalists

[Jonny the Space Marine]

Hey folks,

 

Planning a Pre-Heresy Wolrd Eaters army, using the C:CSM to represent wargear. I have 2 questions to put to you.

 

First, was there a 100% mortality rate for the loyalist members of the traitor legions at Isstavan III, or is it possible a handful could have survived? I've read the HH novels, but I can't find conclusive evidence either way.

 

Second, what kind of squad/company markings were used back then? (Arrow for Tactical, cross for Assault, or were those implemented after the HH in the Codex Astartes?)

 

Let me know wht you think.

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

[Walter Payton]

First Question, well, some belive that Loken may have survived, others that Ancient Rylanor and a few others survived. The only hard evidence for Loyalist Traitor Legionnaires is in the Flight of the Eisenstein, where, if we collate all the accouts, Three Captains, Qruze (Luna Wolves), Garro (Death Guard) and Varren (World Eaters), as well as assorted other marines led the group. These men became the Inquisition.

 

As for the second question, I think it would be the same as now for the Ultramarines, and different for everyone else.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

First, was there a 100% mortality rate for the loyalist members of the traitor legions at Isstavan III, or is it possible a handful could have survived? I've read the HH novels, but I can't find conclusive evidence either way.

 

I would say that there is a 100% mortality rate for the Loyalists on Isstvaan III. Even if not all of them were killed on the planet, Garro & Co have already gone back to the Emperor and essentially said "We're the only Loyalists left from these Legions". Unless one of the Eisenstein survivors was there and personally able to vouch for the 'rescued' Loyalist, the Imperium would just execute any as spies.

 

Plus there's the whole thing about the 'sacrifice' at Isstvaan III being meaningful if some survive or not etc etc.

 

Since Loken's fate is a whole topic in itself, I'd encourage everyone to just stay on the general topic here, and to read about the possibilities of Loken's fate here. The arguments go round and round several times, just in case you miss them the first time, and once you've read it through you'll see why it was closed for going round in circles.

I propose we don't have a repeat of that here. :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

First Question, well, some belive that Loken may have survived, others that Ancient Rylanor and a few others survived. The only hard evidence for Loyalist Traitor Legionnaires is in the Flight of the Eisenstein, where, if we collate all the accouts, Three Captains, Qruze (Luna Wolves), Garro (Death Guard) and Varren (World Eaters), as well as assorted other marines led the group. These men became the Inquisition.

 

As for the second question, I think it would be the same as now for the Ultramarines, and different for everyone else.

 

There was no World Eater Captain on the Eisenstein... It was Iacton Qurze, or the Luna Wolves and Garro and his Command Squad, of the Death Guard.

 

Where do you get Varren from?

 

Rylanor could not have survived, as the virus penetrated his Dreadnaught shell in the first bombardment.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Rylanor could not have survived, as the virus penetrated his Dreadnaught shell in the first bombardment.

 

You're confusing that with the Death Guard Dreadnought, Huron-Fal. Rylanor is last seen stomping into the depths of the ruined Choral City.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Rylanor could not have survived, as the virus penetrated his Dreadnaught shell in the first bombardment.

 

You're confusing that with the Death Guard Dreadnought, Huron-Fal. Rylanor is last seen stomping into the depths of the ruined Choral City.

 

I do wish people would stop pointing out when i'm wrong... It's happening far too often for my liking! :P

[Walter Payton]

First Question, well, some belive that Loken may have survived, others that Ancient Rylanor and a few others survived. The only hard evidence for Loyalist Traitor Legionnaires is in the Flight of the Eisenstein, where, if we collate all the accouts, Three Captains, Qruze (Luna Wolves), Garro (Death Guard) and Varren (World Eaters), as well as assorted other marines led the group. These men became the Inquisition.

 

As for the second question, I think it would be the same as now for the Ultramarines, and different for everyone else.

 

There was no World Eater Captain on the Eisenstein... It was Iacton Qurze, or the Luna Wolves and Garro and his Command Squad, of the Death Guard.

 

Where do you get Varren from?

 

Rylanor could not have survived, as the virus penetrated his Dreadnaught shell in the first bombardment.

 

You will note that I said 'some people', indicating that I was not one of them, chum.

 

 

 

FOR SOME REASON I CAN'T GET THE SPOILER TAGS TO WORK ON MY LAPTOP, SO IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW THE STORY OF THE EISENSTEIN LOOK AWAY NOW

 

 

 

The Eisenstein is a matter of massive contradiction. First off, in Realm of Chaos, it was a Chaos frigate that the Istvaan III loyalists hijacked. No names were mentioned, nut accounts indicate that the marines were in company strength. Then we get the newer things, in the 1989 Space Marine book, which first mentioned Garro's name. Other sources state that the 70 marines were lead by Captain Varren of the World Eaters and escaped in Thunderhawk transports.

 

Still another source suggests that Captain Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children led the group. According to this account, Varren's World Eaters were supposed seize control of the Eisenstein at the same time that the other Marines would take control of four separate ships (presumably their own transports/frigates) and use these vessels to defend the Eisenstein so it could jump to Warp Space. This does not mesh seamlessly with later sources, which indicate that Garro, not Varren or Tarvitz, was responsible for warning the Emperor of the Heresy and which seem to imply that all 70 Marines accompanied him to Terra

 

Ben Counter's Flight of the Eisenstein, tells of Captain Nathaniel Garro leading only loyal Death Guard Marines. He is joined by Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves and the remembrancers Mersadie Oliton and Euphrati Keeler, as well as the iterator Kyril Sindermann. The remaining Loyalist Marines are left fighting on Isstvan III because delivering the warning to the Emperor supersedes their rescue from the planet's surface. The Eisenstein is able to escape but becomes stranded in the Warp. They are however rescued by Rogal Dorn and the Eisenstein is scuttled.

 

I simply combined all the above accounts.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I can only go by FotE, as I have never seen the other source materiel!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I can only go by FotE, as I have never seen the other source materiel!

 

FotE is almost a carbon-copy of the sidebar in Index Astartes: Death Guard, right down to fulfilling two of the four possible ideas for what happened to Garro.

[Edelward]

First Question, well, some belive that Loken may have survived,

Sorry,brother,Loken is dead .I admit that he was really a great guy easy to associate yourself with, but alas...

I had hopes too but after reading the thread on Black Library official forum ,currently under reconstruction, I had to abandon them.

As a pre-Heresy marine he was more like us-believing in better future for humanity etc.

Thats is why we like him so-maybe.

[calgar101]

Lokens alive... Dan Abnett in a youtube video stated that he'd be making a return, unless the video is rather old.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Loken must be dead.... Because too often authors stray into the minefield that is keeping characters alive because people like them!

[Walter Payton]

Well, the OP is asking about World Eaters, and there is a slim chance in fluff that some survived the Heresy on the Eisenstein-read my above post.

[Inquisitor Engel]

There were World Eaters stationed elsewhere (Skraal and his boys from Battle for the Abyss can't have been the only ones) as well as TONS of Iron Warriors stretched across the galaxy on garrison duty that didn't get the "we hate the Emperor" message.

[Walter Payton]

There were World Eaters stationed elsewhere (Skraal and his boys from Battle for the Abyss can't have been the only ones) as well as TONS of Iron Warriors stretched across the galaxy on garrison duty that didn't get the "we hate the Emperor" message.

 

Skraal died, though. Also, examine the character of Skraal, and then tell me he wouldn't have turned if he had been told to.

[Sgt.Sangha]

But Skraal did have a chance too and he didnt even after he found out his own Primarch did.

[Dark Mechanicum]

The only loyalists I could see at all surviving is Rylanor or any that went for a hanger that was buried deeply underground. Probably the only way to survive what happened. Kindof like Tyranids burrowing to survive an exterminatus.

[Monstra Sumus]

I've been very tempted by a 'loyalist' World Eaters army to bring into 40k. Yeah fluff death but hey, we work our armies how we want.

 

I'd be prone to the idea that a small battle group were tied up in 'pacifying' a world like the WE's do and didn't get the message, but completely repulsed the idea of Angron siding with Horus and his silver tongued devilry.

 

Or theres nothing to stop said battle group being so cliched and getting 'lost in the warp' and being conkered out into the 41st millenium.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Or theres nothing to stop said battle group being so cliched and getting 'lost in the warp' and being conkered out into the 41st millenium.

 

:rolleyes:

 

You make me cry... :sweat:

[Monstra Sumus]

I did say be prepared for fluffcrimes.

 

I gave fair warning! ;)

 

But, as bad as 'Lost in the warp' is, it works, albiet basic in the extreme.

[Korraz]

I say: Don't give a crap and just do it. Like 85% of the people don't really care about the fluff and/or play with Classic Grey models, out of the box. I'm thankfull for everyone who comes up with an original idea AND puts real effort into it. If anyone bugs you, just tell him to please be quiet and come back when he has 10% of his army painted.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I say: Don't give a crap and just do it. Like 85% of the people don't really care about the fluff and/or play with Classic Grey models, out of the box. I'm thankfull for everyone who comes up with an original idea AND puts real effort into it. If anyone bugs you, just tell him to please be quiet and come back when he has 10% of his army painted.

 

I challenge you, sir, to a duel! :lol:

 

I'm a non-gaming fluff whore.. So I do care, ner ner :P

[Korraz]

By my oath, we shall meet at the fields of honour at the first light! I choose the power fist as weapon!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I say: Don't give a :) and just do it. Like 85% of the people don't really care about the fluff and/or play with Classic Grey models, out of the box. I'm thankfull for everyone who comes up with an original idea AND puts real effort into it. If anyone bugs you, just tell him to please be quiet and come back when he has 10% of his army painted.

 

*Coughs loudly*

 

I don't think anyone's in a position to judge what percentage of gamers do and don't care about the fluff, or even whether there has to be absolute positions.

 

What I do know is trying to tell someone who does care about the fluff (in almost any way, from "interested" to "die-hard fluff-nut") that it is not necessary to enjoy the game is a bit like telling all those gamers out there that their models are "not necessary" to enjoying 40k. It is an entirely subjective judgement and will cause them to look at you as though you have a live squid in your mouth.

 

Now, back on topic! :D

 

The "lost in warp" is cliche for a reason, as is the "HH-era loyalists in the 41st millennium". They have been done to death (I did wonder how new Liber trends start though - it seems I know now :eek ). It is entirely possible to come up with an original way of using a old idea, but don't try to convince yourself that you are doing something entirely and wholly original. As someone wittily commented in Amicus once, the survivors on the Eisenstein couldn't have had anything to do with future Imperial organisations as they all went on to found DIY Chapters.

[Monstra Sumus]

I know the 'lost in the warp' has been done to death, but in saying that, it will continue to be done to the death and so forth and so on.

 

I was just throwing it out there as an option. :)