Help against Imperial Guard

[Black_Crusader]

Hi there, i am a new player to the daemons and in dire need of help against those damn cadians.

I have read the Daemonic Review topic by Captain Malachi and gave me a lot of ideas but at the moment i only have the daemonzila build and any attempt on an army list end in failure. (already lost 5 matches ;) )

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated. ^_^

If you have any ideas that do not involve slaanesh it would be nice because i don't have any models at the moment (i will try and get some soon though)

 

Also need to mention that i hate PASK, my opponent uses him every time in a Punisher...

[Wolf Lord Cuneglas]

What else does you opponent bring with his army? Is it all mech, gunline, Valks....

[Black_Crusader]

He can pretty much bring anything in the codex so it depends on the day but these are some things he always bring: Two infantry units of at least 40 men each, a small command with meltas, 1 unit of veterans with meltas on Chimera, an executioner and a Punisher with Pask.

In the 2 out of 5 games we played he put 2 command squads with officers of the fleet and Pask but after a little talk we had i don't think he will ever do that again :P On the other hand i don't like the idea of him going easy on me... (not bringing certain things because they counter my army).

 

Edit: we usually play 2000 points. Added Pask to the list.

[Wolf Lord Cuneglas]

That executioner is pretty nasty and to throw Pask in there to boot. Remember though, that combination is pretty darn expensive. I would recommend taking Flamers and DS aggressively with them to neutralize the executioner threat. If he's meched up or has an Inquisitor/Mystics with an Officer of the Fleet, then it's just plain tough for us to win. I'm a Nurgle fan, but have plenty of Khorne to change things up. How do you deck out your Daemon Prince's? I use Flight & Iron Hide, which brings the point cost up, but with our lack of mobility after we hit the ground it's tough. I like to run Plague Bearer's w/ Icons for objective holding and accurate DSing. If you can get your PB's into CC with those big squads you should be able to take them down. They hit you on 4's, wound on 6's and you have a 5+ and then a 4+. Remember to re-roll your wounds from the poison. I know PB's aren't meant to get into CC, but I seem to have very good luck with them beating up much "stronger" units. If they don't have power weapons, then PB's trudge it out.

 

You may also want to change up your armies to see if he's building specifically against the Daemon build....

 

I hope this helps.

[Black_Crusader]

Thanks for the reply.

Well unfortunately his game is always centered on Pask so he always have a good circle of infantry to prevent close DS and chimeras to give him cover from shooting.

Pask is a punisher (the tank is 270 points actually and kills a T6 W4 3+ monstrous creature in one turn :( ) He always bring him like this in addition to the other things i mention before. (sorry for the confusion in my second post)

I use 20 PB and they are always the ones that do the most job. I guess i should bring some more and put less points on the heavy's.

I used to build my DPs with wings,hide,nurgle,grenades so that they can last longer but i find that it is not a good idea. I want to try a cheap DP for tank hunting but then it comes back to Pask, if the tougher prince won't survive then the weaker will only come to shoot and die. (at least the tough one is left with one wound to take a second unit's shooting)

I tried Kairos and he did quite good in that game but i don't think that my list is all around him yet. Any advise on how to build around Kairos will be helpful.

Finally he makes his list specifically against me and i try do the same, we don't find that a bad thing. (except that he won't use 2 officers and Pask ever again, that's a little too much no matter how you look at it)

The only time we played with general lists in tourni we had a draw, all other 5 times i lost...

 

What i currently have are: 2thirsters, 1LoC, 4crushers, 20PB, 20horrors, 20Bloodletters, 3Princes, 2soul grinders

I intent to take more things and my first priority is to find something to deal with this opponent.

Any more help will be nice :) .

[Godhead]

The tounge upgrade on the soulgrinder gives a 24inch str 10 ap 1 shot that can pen tanks. Fateweaver is tough with his rerolls to saves.

 

That punisher hurts but he can only shoot at one unit at a time. You would probably do better with more units (alas more kps) so he cant take such large chunks out of your army with one round of shooting. If he's running an allied Inq with 2x mystics, then you are getting shot as soon as you drop. You say that he takes lots of infantry to prevent you from getting to his tanks, if its possible to target the infantry with flamers and the template still hits the tank, then it is still affected by the its power. So with a bit of placement and luck you could get a two for one deal.

 

You can also run fateweaver and instead of going for the nurgle prince try a tzeentch mark for a 4+ save on the prince. Then try and put him down next to fateweaver for the rerolls to saves. The other thing is if you have more units, then you have a reasonable chance to get into close combat which will prevent him from shooting you. It sounds like that he is just destroying you with a volume of fire and daemonzilla doesn't give you enough bodies to survive the barrage.

[Black_Crusader]

It sounds like that he is just destroying you with a volume of fire and daemonzilla doesn't give you enough bodies to survive the barrage.

 

That is exactly the main problem i have, and the only infantry that survive turn 3 are 7+plaguebearers. How do i get to those Leman Russes and stop the smaller Chimera, sentinel, hellhound or whatever he uses to contest objectives, if i can't have a monstrous creature for more than 2 turns on the field?

Fateweaver is the only one who survived longer but that wasn't enough (although that was a close game, almost draw it and could have won it too with a little more luck)

[Godhead]

Can you give us an example of the kind of list that are you fielding? I know you said Daemonzilla, but what specifcially? Besides the punisher what else seems to causing you grief? Let us know what you have available to field and maybe we can help you with a strat and a build that may be more effective for you.

[Black_Crusader]

I currently have:

2 Bloodthirsters

1 Lord of change (use for Kairos some times)

20 Plaguebearers

18 Horrors

20 Bloodletters

4 Bloodcrushers

2 Soulgrinders

3 Daemon Prince

5 Screamers

Herald of Tzeentch on disc (converted to look a little like blue scribes should)

 

I don't like Slaanesh but i think i might need to change that and take some of his units.

I also find the suicide flamer drop too dangerous to try with my bad luck on deep strike rolls (just yesterday i scattered 10'' a 12 man squad of horrors next to Tyranid warriors...)

I have everything for making a Daemonzilla except from Keeper of secrets but other than that it is a little chaos :rolleyes:

Since we already had 5 games i have really tried a lot of lists (never the same)

He makes tough list but i don't have problem with something special other than the punisher. I manage to kill with shooting his platoon commands and tie up the infantry with Plague bearers. My big daemons survive from the other tanks as they should.

 

In our last game i had:

Kairos

The Blue scribes

2 Princes of Nurgle (hide, flight, grenades, might)

1 soul grinder

Bloodcrusers

Screamers

Plague bearers 2*10 with icons

All horrors 2*9 with bolt

It was the only list i find worth of dealing with him.

 

Any more help will be appreciated.

 

(Just reminded that i really need to beat him good with my other army (Black Templars) today for payback (usually win in this match up))

[Seahawk]

Make one of your horrors the Changeling. It'll be the best 5 points you ever spend, especially when those IG squads fire...and one happens to fire at Pask's tank. Daemonzilla is a bit fragile to take on a good Guard player with, as he can just Bring it Down! to death.

[Godhead]

You've mentioned the Leman Russ with the punisher gatling cannon a few times. It only has a range of 24 inches. Thats the same range as the tongue upgrade for the soul grinders. Str 10 ap 1 shot, so you're basically working with an 11 from the start. Might bring 2 or 3 soul grinders and try to bring 2 in so that you can hopefully get a shot in. Plus I still highly recommend a squad or two of suicide flamers. They move as jump troops so you can either be super aggressive and drop them up close and try for the glance for a weapon destroyed from the breath of chaos attack, OOOOORRRRRRR be conservative and just drop them in out of line of sight. Since they move like jump infantry they can get to where they need to be quickly. IMO those things can wreck everything if they don't get killed asap.

[Black_Crusader]

Next time I will put 2 grinders with tongue and proxy a few flamers, since i don't have any, to see how it will go. I will use the changeling as well.

Do you think i should include a daemon prince for the 3rd HS and if yes how do you think i should gear him?

[Godhead]

honestly i'm not so sure about throwing a dp in there. t5 or t6 with MON vs the IG who can load up a crap load of plasma to fire against you isn't really a good match up. With plasma being ap 2, you won't benefit much from iron hide so that leaves you making your standard 5+i save. If you did go with a DP maybe one with MOT and bolt of tzeentch. That gives you another 24" str 8 ap 1 shot. AV 13 soul grinder only takes glancing shots to the front from plasma, which he gets to ignore shaken and stunned because its daemonic. I'd prob just take a 3rd SG and drop aggressively and see whats left.

[Black_Crusader]

Thanks for the help, i will post a battle report once i played a game and hopefully it will be in my favor this time.