Walker Questions

[Ntin]

1. Can an immobilized walker still pivot in place like it is described in “WALKERS SHOOTING” on page 72? For example if an immobilized Dreadnought has an enemy directly behind it, can it turn 180 and fire?

 

2. This happened to me a few months ago but remembered to ask. I had immobilized a Dreadnought in close combat but my unit was fearless. Would they just locked in close combat until the Dreadnought dies? It seemed strange that a fearless unit would fight to the death when they could just walk away. RAW it did seem like they were locked in until one side won.

[Seahawk]

1. So far as has been found or FAQed, dreadnoughts stay facing the same direction like any other vehicle.

 

2. Yes they'd stay in combat, even if nobody kills the other...

[Ntin]

What I am on the fence about #1 is that a Walker is a sub type of Vehicle which would mean its own rules override that of Vehicle. It is just a bit ambiguous. Is there an email for Games-Workshop for future errata?

 

The second one I figured that was how it worked it was just when it happened it seemed so silly with nearly 40 daemonettes piled in on one Venerable Dreadnought that was immobilized and no weapons but I could not get the last weapon destroyed or immobilized to finish it off for several rounds of close combat.

[SeattleDV8]

Not ambiguous at all. BRB PG. 61 Damaged Immobilised "It may not move for the rest of the game . An immobilied vehicle may not turn in place......."

BRB Pg 73 "When firing a walkers weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees, like hull mounted weapons)....."

 

The 180 was a 4th Ed rule, if a walker is immobilised it can not pivot (or turn ) on the spot and can only fire 45 degrees .

[thade]

The people at my club like to play it this way: it gets a little weird, but the walker can turn to shoot (as it's rules don't say it needs to change it's facing to shoot) BUT it cannot turn/change it's facing. So, to be clear, wherever it's rear armor was facing when it was immobilized is where it's rear armor remains facing for as long as it remains immobilized. It can shoot behind itself though; just not turn that way.

 

I'm about 90% certain that this is against the rules, but it's only come up once and not in a tournie, so I didn't make a stink about it.

[werewolf_nr]

Walkers have a 180 degree shooting arc as per the shooting section of the rulebook. Immobilized vehicles (walkers included) cannot pivot. Therefore they may only shoot at things in the 180 degree arc.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Walkers have a 180 degree shooting arc as per the shooting section of the rulebook. Immobilized vehicles (walkers included) cannot pivot. Therefore they may only shoot at things in the 180 degree arc.

Negitive, each weapon on a walker has a 45 degree arc as definied in the shooting section of the walker section.

Pg 72 "Walkers Shooting" third paragraph.

[nurglez]

also, in reply to the second question, nope, you cant run away, as it is a vehicle with a WS characteristic, only way stuff could run away is if they lose a casualty :(

[Isiah]

2. This happened to me a few months ago but remembered to ask. I had immobilized a Dreadnought in close combat but my unit was fearless. Would they just locked in close combat until the Dreadnought dies?

Yes or until your unit dies. That's Fearless for you I'm afraid.

[thade]

I thought you weren't locked in combat with a Dreadnought that's immobilized?

[Ntin]

That is what is confusing an immobilized walker cannot pivot to shoot but an immobilized walker in close combat can still spin to avoid rear arc hits and lock units in.

[gdeathlegion]

That is what is confusing an immobilized walker cannot pivot to shoot but an immobilized walker in close combat can still spin to avoid rear arc hits and lock units in.

 

At my game club an immobilised walker may not move, but can still pivot 180 degrees, as such it has an effective firing arc of 225 degrees total, bearing in mind the 45 degree arc of mounted weapons.

[SeattleDV8]

At my game club an immobilised walker may not move, but can still pivot 180 degrees, as such it has an effective firing arc of 225 degrees total, bearing in mind the 45 degree arc of mounted weapons.

Ok , but thats a house rule, not RAW. An immobilised may not pivot (or turn) in place

Thade, nothing in the rules to support that idea.

 

Ntin....yes you are correct

[thade]

Was this covered in previous editions? When a walker was immobilized could it's upper chassis still turn?

 

And regarding locked in combat...Are you or are you not locked in combat with a walker when it is Immobilized?

[Isiah]

Yep vehicle immobilised rules [p61] are very clear – no turning on the spot I'm afraid. And as the top half of the dread isn't classified as a turret it can't swivel at the hips so to speak.

 

And regarding locked in combat...Are you or are you not locked in combat with a walker when it is Immobilized?

Yes locked. But they lose 1 attack to maybe reflect their crippled state. [p73]

 

Although this does seem slightly counter-intuitive to the walker's cc rules [p73], which state that all hits are taken on the front armour. One could ask the question 'how if it can't pivot?'.

 

Cheers

I

[Frosty the Pyro]

Yep vehicle immobilised rules [p61] are very clear – no turning on the spot I'm afraid. And as the top half of the dread isn't classified as a turret it can't swivel at the hips so to speak.

 

And regarding locked in combat...Are you or are you not locked in combat with a walker when it is Immobilized?

Yes locked. But they lose 1 attack to maybe reflect their crippled state. [p73]

 

Although this does seem slightly counter-intuitive to the walker's cc rules [p73], which state that all hits are taken on the front armour. One could ask the question 'how if it can't pivot?'.

 

Cheers

I

It takes one arm and swings it randomly behind it, no one wants to chance that so they still attack from the front.

[Ntin]

Remember the dreadnought’s arm only has a 45 degree arc! Even something like a Soul Grinder that has real arms and a real head. It is not very flexible.

 

The last game I played I had an immobilized Soul Grinder in some woods (deep strike dangerous terrain) and my opponent’s Trukk came up from behind and used a Wreckin’ Ball. Kind of why I had to ask it just seemed so silly that it could not do something where if the Wreckin’ Ball was a close combat attack the Soul Grinder could spin around and punch out the Trukk.

[ImperialGuardian]

So I reverted to a discussion about immobilized walkers in the following thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=207085

 

I came to a different conclusion than you guys and no one has seemed to make this point...

 

On page 72 are the walker shooting rules

1) "When firing walker's weapons pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target."

2) "assume that all weapons mounted on the walker can swivel 45' like hull mounted weapons.

3) "This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and represents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles."

 

On page 61 here are the immobilized rules:

1) "It may not move for the rest of the game"

2) "An immobilized vehicle may not turn in place but its turret may continue to rotate to selected targets, and other weapons retain their normal arc of fire."

 

Since this pivoting is not even done in the moving phase, I have always thought immobilized walkers can still pivot as much as they want.

It is also considered "pivoting" and not actually "turning in place". I know this is getting pretty RAW but since the "pivot" occurs in the shooting phase and the "turn in place" is also mentioned in the moving rules, I would think these are not the same thing.

 

At the end of the day I am just playing against my brother so we can settle it between ourselves before the matches but it would be nice to hear your opinion of this argument

[greatcrusade08]

I guess its whether or not you consider a dreadnoughts upper body to be a 'turret'..

 

Is it true that immobilised dreads can be hit with grenades on 4+ instead of 6+, sorry for the daft question, but my rulebook is tucked up at home in bed.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

On page 72 are the walker shooting rules

1) "When firing walker's weapons pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target."

2) "assume that all weapons mounted on the walker can swivel 45' like hull mounted weapons.

3) "This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and represents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles."

 

On page 61 here are the immobilized rules:

1) "It may not move for the rest of the game"

2) "An immobilized vehicle may not turn in place but its turret may continue to rotate to selected targets, and other weapons retain their normal arc of fire."

 

Since this pivoting is not even done in the moving phase, I have always thought immobilized walkers can still pivot as much as they want.

It is also considered "pivoting" and not actually "turning in place". I know this is getting pretty RAW but since the "pivot" occurs in the shooting phase and the "turn in place" is also mentioned in the moving rules, I would think these are not the same thing.

 

At the end of the day I am just playing against my brother so we can settle it between ourselves before the matches but it would be nice to hear your opinion of this argument

 

If a model was infantry, it sees 360°

If a vehicle wants to see, it has a fire arc based on where the gun is. Turning in place is important to get your guns sighted.

A walker moves like infantry (~ish) but has fire arcs like a vehicle.

They give you a shooting phase pivot to simulate its extra mobility.

 

pg 57 "Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move.... Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot.... Pivoting on the spot does alone not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot)...."

 

pg 61 "4 Damaged - Immobilised

The vehicle has taken a hit that has crippled a wheel, track, grav plate, jet or leg.... An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place but its turret may continue to turn to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal fire arc."

 

pg 72 "Walkers cannot run if they are stunned or immobilised"

 

+++

 

'Vehicle' turns are pivoting - all of them: Tanks, Walkers and other stuff, too.

I cannot find where Vehicles changing facing is called 'turning in place' as you have coined it.... (not being cheeky, actually asking for it to be pointed out :) ) It is only called "turning in place" under the Immobilised damage result, as far as I can see....

So this does not make for walker changing facing any different from generic vehicle changing facing, they are both described as pivoting in the specific entry on each of them changing facing.

 

If a Walker cannot move in it's Shooting phase to run, why can it pivot instead? Is this because it specifically mentions not running?

Pivoting is not allowed by a 'vehicle' in its movement phase if it is immobilised, yet it is never mentioned that being stunned prevents pivoting - are you saying that stunned vehicles may pivot because stunned was not mentioned?

 

Walkers are vehicles, and if the damage tables say they cannot turn in place, then walkers cannot turn in place. It doesn't matter when the pivoting may occur, they can't do it.

 

An immobilised Librarian-Dreadnought cannot fly via Wings of Sanguinius. Movement is done as per jump-pack movement, but if you cannot move, it does matter how you would move because you can't.

 

Same with Dread pivoting. It doesn't matter when the pivoting happens, if you can't pivot, then you can't pivot ;)

[Acebaur]

I guess its whether or not you consider a dreadnoughts upper body to be a 'turret'..

 

Is it true that immobilised dreads can be hit with grenades on 4+ instead of 6+, sorry for the daft question, but my rulebook is tucked up at home in bed.

 

No, Walkers that are immobilized (and I think stunned) are hit with grenades based on weapon skill.

 

 

Good points Marshal Wilhelm!

[Grey Mage]

So I reverted to a discussion about immobilized walkers in the following thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=207085

 

 

Since this pivoting is not even done in the moving phase, I have always thought immobilized walkers can still pivot as much as they want.

It is also considered "pivoting" and not actually "turning in place". I know this is getting pretty RAW but since the "pivot" occurs in the shooting phase and the "turn in place" is also mentioned in the moving rules, I would think these are not the same thing.

 

At the end of the day I am just playing against my brother so we can settle it between ourselves before the matches but it would be nice to hear your opinion of this argument

You do understand that the definition of 'pivot' is to turn on a single point, ie "to turn in place" right?

 

And that a run, or an assault move, or a consolidation... are all forms of movement, even if they dont take place in the movement phase....

[Agrab]

57 - Imobolized vehicles may not even pivit

72 - pivot the walker

 

this seems clear, a walker that is imobalized can not pivot at all