Thousand Sons / Blood Ravens Relationship?

[Whitefireinferno]

I know it has been asked before and I tried my search FU but came up with nothing but what was the verdict from the Planet of Sorcerers?

[Cosmic Archmage]

I think it is pretty likely, but it is nothing official. I would recommend you reading this librarium article on the Blood Ravens and see for yourself :

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=132

 

High number of psykers is definitly the most obvious sign, but there is also a Black Library novel where Ahriman appears as a villain and speaks of a possible relationship between the Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons.

 

If theres a thing to be sure, Davian Thule wasn't too happy with the chapter records he found on Kronus.

 

But anyway, it's nothing confirmed, and might stay this way.

[Draeden]

Archmage and the article pretty much sums it up. Reading between the lines for me tells me they use Thousand Son Gene-seed, know of their past, but seek to atone for the "mistakes" of the Thousand Sons but to do so secretly... afterall, if it's widely known that there are intimate ties between a Space Marine Chapter and a Chaos Marine Legion, what do you think would happen?

 

Edit: I was thinking over the idea that Nathaniel Garro and his possible relationship with the Inquisition and it said in the above article that there are intimacies between the Ordo Malleus and the Blood Ravens. It would be an interesting twist as it were, if the "Traitor Aspects" of the Thousand Sons and the Death Guard were to go to opposing gods and yet their "Loyalist Aspects" became close nit brothers....

[Lucifer216]

Perhaps the biggest hint yet comes from "A Thousand Sons"

 

Ahriman is part of a sub group called "The Corvidae" which specialise in divination.

[Whitefireinferno]

Cheers for the link In my books it points the right way High amount of phykers ,Dodgy History records and who of the founding chapters had red Armour the Blood Angels name wise maybe but then I either have Hundreds of Marines that have done Miphistons trick but thats unlikely And the other Was Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons and it makes more Sense.

 

P s are the Red/tan bone colour Scheme the Pre Heresy TS colours?

[Draeden]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/c6/Pre_Heresy_Thousand_Sons_Marine.jpg

 

That's the Pre-Heresy Thousand Son Style

[ANCIENT FALOR]

In the thousand sons book it pretty much confirms it.

[Whitefireinferno]

could you (or anybody) pm me and give me the general rundown on what the book says?

[ODM]

Here's a summary of the background before A Thousand Sons. I got tired of arguing in threads so saved it!

 

Serious SPOILERS below!!!!!

 

Blood Raven origins - Spoilers from DoW books included

________________________________________

After reading the Dawn of War series, specifically the last 2, it seems that all signs are pointing to the Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors. Now this has often been postulated and discarded as impossible, but the last two books almost hit you over the head the supporting evidence.

 

As a general recap:

 

- Blood Ravens have a very high number of Librarians

- Blood Ravens are continually thirsting for knowledge, to the point that it's come many times to the Inquisition's notice

- Blood Ravens don't know their Primarch, just their Father Librarian

- Their history has been purposefully obscured

- One squad/company disappeared into the Eye of Terror, led by their Librarian, in search of knowledge

 

Revealed in Ascension

- Blood Ravens in the far past built a recruiting world outpost on top of an earlier marine outpost

- This earlier marine outpost was built during the time of the Heresy. It was built by marines in Red Armor (T Sons, Blood Angels, or word bearers?).

- These marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis

- These Heresy Era marines were tasked by the Eldar with guarding this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously left abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over

- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

 

Revealed in the Tempest

- The Blood Ravens can field entire squads of Librarians and even have a secret inner circle of Librarians sort of like the DA Deathwing, who hold knowledge not spread throughout the rest of the Chapter

- The Blood Ravens resent the Imperial Fists, and even have a secret tome written about the un-founding, explaining how those Founding chapters aren't necessarily all they're cracked up to be

- The Blood Ravens Father Librarian Vidya was known to Arhiman of the Thousand Sons

- Arhiman hints that the Blood Ravens Librarians' bear the same color as the T-Sons as more than a coincidence, it's based on the Rubric of Arhiman

- Ahriman is intimately familiar with the details of the founding of the Blood Ravens, but doesn't explain how

- Ahriman of the Thousand Sons, the Eldar and the Harlequins, and the Blood Ravens of old and their Father Librarian are all very linked in the ancient times

 

So, here's my theory based on all this circumstantial evidence...

 

1) The Thousand Sons were the marines working with the Eldar to secure the Necron during the Heresy. This never came to notice in the rest of the Imperium either because of the start of the Heresy, or because they kept it secret. This is why these "red marines" would leave their responsibilities to guard one of the greatest threats in the universe....they were fighting the rest of the Imperium and were driven into the eye.

 

2) The Blood Ravens were founded before or during the Heresy by a Senior Librarian of the Thousand Sons. Whether he (Father Vidya) split from the Thousand Sons before over the ends and means in the pursuit of knowledge, or the split did not occur until the Heresy is unknown. It could be that they were a splinter known to be loyal by the powers that be and were allowed to found a new Chapter, or it could be that they had already separated themselves.

 

3) Father Vidya had many of the same studious, searching tendencies as his old Legion, but while the T Sons turned down the evil road in anger and to cure the Rubric, his searches of knowledge remained benign.

 

4) He worked again with the Eldar to craft another powerful anti-Necron weapon, stored in the Blood Raven's battle barge and to lock the Necron in another place in the galaxy.

 

5) Although his passion for research and the rituals were maintained, Vidya's actual knowledge were gradually buried over time, but unlike all the other Chapters, their origins were deliberately obscured, for obvious reasons.

 

 

This is what we knew/thought before the HH Novel. A Thousand Sons has lots of confirming points of evidence. Again SPOILERS below!!!

 

1) The Corvidae (Ahriman belongs to this Cult) are obviously named for Ravens, but additionally, its members actually have Ravens' Heads emblazoned on their shoulder pads. They are also the Guardians of the great Library.

 

2) The Possessed Remembrancer glimpses the future of Prospero "...the lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for Salvation and Knowledge but it is denied?..."

 

3) Before the Wolves arrive for the seige, 4 Thousand Sons battle barges and their attendant Squadrons of strike cruisers are sent off by Magnus in different directions so they cannot interfere in the Seige. They have special sealed orders for their Captains to open once they have arrived at their destinations. We never learn the the orders, or who was on them.

 

Sooo, The Blood Ravens novels had been pretty heavy handedly pointing at the relationship, but A Thousand Sons makes it clear. The Blood Ravens are the decendents of the Thousand Sons.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Additionally I feel there are clues in the short story, Isador's Lament, with it's focus on all Blood Ravens Librarians specifically studying the Conclave of Nikaea in great length, as well as a hint of 1000 people walking out of the Conclave being amazed that the whole discussion was even taking place...

 

Edit: *sigh* The short story is included in the Omnibus version of the Dawn of War novels...

[- 7eAL -]

I don't know why, but having the pieces laid out for me like this strikes me deeply, as wistful as bitter. Maybe it's the idea that primogenitors and successors are reunited, only to fall on bitterly opposing sides. Maybe it's the feeling of truth laid bare; longing for the mystery that was lost. Maybe it's the realization that everything from the games to the books have been coordinated to this end, and my personal awe that such a ploy was at all successful.

[Lord of Worms]

IIRC, there are other Loyalist Chapters implied to be descendants of traitor legions. The only one I can think of is the Minotaurs being from World Eaters.

[Crimson Hawk]

This pretty much confirms it;

"...the Lost Sons and the Raven of Blood!"

Kallista Eris, A Thousand Sons

[Lord_Caerolion]

From what I remember though, McNeil has stated that that line doesn't refer to the Blood Ravens, merely to the Corvidae. I don't know why he phrased it like that if he didn't, but whatever...

[Lucios]

As per the article http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=132 there is an interesting statement here that I cannot ignore: "the Blood Ravens are a Chapter dear to the Soul of the Emperor himself." As you can tell, the Soul of the Emperor is not His actual soul as the word "himself" is used with a lower case "h". Thus, reffering to Aurelian, as his embodiment of one of the Emperors traits happens to be his soul. I have also seen statements from his word bearer leagonares to state that while his brothers embodied more violence-oriented traits, he embodied the Emperors compassion and soul. Thus, he was to become known as "the Soul of the Emperor."

[yhta]

also. if the blood ravens are from the thousand sons. what happen with the flesh change that almost wiped out the entire legion? rubric also saved the ravens?

[Mykra]

They rather bluntly hammered it home that the Blood Ravens were from the Thousand Sons in the short story Rebirth from Age of Darkness. The final few paragraphs are so heavy handed about it, I'm honestly surprised it went to print with how vague they like certain things in the setting.

 

Spoiler:

 

 

Basically, a decent sized chunk of Thousand Sons weren't on the planet when the crap hit the fan, and come back to a wrecked Prospero to find out what happened. Other stuff happens in the book I won't spoil for you, but at the very end the Corvidae gather up all kind of sacred texts and such, and decide to split. Their final words are 'Knowledge is Power,' and then lava flashes and highlights his cult badge of a black raven.

 

Pretty blatant.

 

 

Edit: Although I have no clue how they would reason out some itty bitty details like the flesh-change, or oh...the genetic tithes coming back as a Traitor Legion. Y'know, no biggies really.

[Hellrender]

the flesh change i cant explain. But...

 

The genetic tithes are easier :P

 

Considering that in M37, the Inquisition and the Blood Ravens apparantly purged tall the knowledge they had about their origins, that the Blood Ravens now dont even know who they came from, its even rumoured that this was Sanctioned by the/ a High Lord of Terra. Thus it is not that far of a stretch to say that the Tithe does not need to be made.. or they send in some other gene seed, or an Inquisitor checks it (the same sort of inquisitor that helped expunge it (not the same, but the sort)).

 

It would be weird if the Flesh Change was solved by a group of mortals, after all Magnus is 100x more brilliant, and he couldnt figure it out. But.. you could say, that since Tzeentch now succeeded in his plan, to bring a Primarch to his side (incl no small part of his legion), that with the surviving Thousand Sons, which did not flee with Magnus into the Eye, the Flesh Change just.. stopped? or lessened, or got in hand, or whatever.

 

Also note, that many of the Blood Ravens in the DoW series, especially 2, have very similar behaviour to Magnus and pre-heresy TS. They have a lot of knowledge, and oftenly dare to use it, to do good, even though it corrupts. Magnus used too much of the Warp, to save his sons, to warn the emperor, all good things, but in the end... Similar things happened in DOW 2 (i wont spoil them), but if you played with corrupted items you know what i mean :)

[ChaosPhoenix]

Since you were talking about DoW2, wasn't Vidya in DoW2 retribution

proven to be a heretic?

 

 

 

edit:

Ah damnit

Sorry it was Kyras, not Vidya.

 

[Lepaca]

the flesh change i cant explain. But...

 

Easy. Tzeentch decided to stop the flesh change. :P

 

Why would he do that? Because he is the freaking changer of ways and manipulator of everything. His reasons are never obvious and can not be understood by mortal minds most of the time.

 

Maybe the Blood Ravens fit better into his plans where they are now?

[Verythrax Draconis]

I think that those surviving TSons got under the grace of Garro, so the Big I turned a blind eye to them and helped with the cover up.

 

Other possibility is that they wait until the circustances made possible to pull that off, presenting themselves as "we had always be here, but we don't have our registers, so dunno who is our primarch and which was our founding. Don't you guys at Terra have it? No? Damn... so we will never know" (or the Big I understood who they really were, but prefered to take them into the fold under wraps).

 

There's the decree that the Traitor Legions' geneseed couldn't be use for new foundings, but was there a rule on what to do with the loyalist survivors of those legions? The Garro situation opens a precedent. Maybe all of them became "legionless" marines, helping the building of the GKs?

[Tiguriusmarius]

Speaking of Garro and the Grey Knights...

 

It is mentioned that prior to the attack on Terra, that Malcador the Siglitle gather marines (T sons + others) and recruits onto Titan (Grey Knights 5th edition Codex Histories) and then sealed it into the warp for a duration.  What pool of marines would have had so many marines to waste whom were pyskers?  I think Malcador might have taken them in and set them through the trials along with normal recruits to prove their loyalty to the emperor and resanctioning them as loyalist.  If this is the case, this might explain why the Big I has such a watchful eye AND possibly found a cure for the mutation in Blood Ravens.  Cure the Ravens and get sanctioned marine librarians and/or raw recruits for the black ships out of it.

 

It's a helluva stretch, don't get me wrong - but would be one heck of a story arch...

[Tenebris]

Also in Dark Crusade it is implied that the Blood Ravens have an unusually strong link with the Grey Knights who seconded an entire squad for the duration of the conflict. I am adamant that the Blood Ravens are the remains of the Thousand Sons that fled Prospero and I presume Magnus counted on that.

It is not only that they dabble in psykana but they actively search for forbidden lore, hide powerful and arcane technologies, have an Astronomican beacon aboard their battle barge and extensively use psykers in their ranks. Combined with their inability to experience REM sleep but offset by almost perfect recall, I presume that it is very like Thousand Sons. Probably not even a degeneration of the geneseed but instead a thing done on purpose for lore aptly says that some of the most dire threats to a psyker mind come from the dreams.

Than we have so many Librarians that actually act as officers, lieutenants and even squad leaders which means that of 20 astartes one is almost certainly a psyker. Such rate of "mutation" is present so far only in the Thousand Sons gene line and I think this is proof enough that something more sinister is behind the Blood Ravens.

Than there are two very telling facts. In the ancient past of the chapter a whole company turned traitor, not renegade but traitor while in the recent events of the Second Aurelian Crusade almost half chapter turned traitor. Now I do not presume this to be a sign but there is much more to the pull of Chaos than sorcery and power for a Blood Raven, it is perhaps the call of a father, the comfort of kin, the demand of blood and lineage. And we all know how powerful are this things in the astartes gene lines.

 

Consider also the very high interest that Abaddon has in the Blood Ravens, to him they are not merely a chapter like others, an enemy, but a thing of interest, a thing of purpose. If the rumors of a strong Thousand Sons faction in the Black Legion would prove true with the new ADB books on the BL, the very myth that a Thousand Sons sorcerer was one of the founding members or the disturbing news that Abaddon relies heavily on the divination and portents of his cabal of sorcerers... well there is something more about the Blood Ravens that meets the eye. Why support Eliphas in his quest against the Blood Ravens, why provide troops, ships and armor to a former Word Bearer Apostle now thrice betrayer, betrayer of his Emperor, betrayer of his Legion and now betrayer of the new Warmaster... why indeed.

Also bears notice the fact that the Blood Ravens are actually ruled in a council, a very democratic body more in line with academics than warriors but so it is. The Council rules, the Council decides and this is perhaps an echo of the distant past for the Thousand Sons, being a brotherhood of scholars enticed such democratic leadership, they had representatives, cults, numerous bodies that had a voice and a face in the legion and all were held equal in the legion hierarchy. The only factor important was the standing of the cult due to the ebb and flow of the warp, a thing more in the realm of metaphysics than any actual social hierarchy.

What about several occasions of Eldar and Blood Ravens cooperation, the distrust of the Space Wolves of their Blood Raven brother in the Deathwatch and many many more subtle hints which increase by the day, as lore expands and many authors wish to impress their view on this most exquisite enigma in the 40k universe. We know from the many books that a Space Wolf smells Maleficarum a mile away and they thousands upon thousands of year of genetic heritage passed this trait on so do they hate the Blood Raven for being a psyker or they hate him because their genes tell them to?

I am in love with both the Blood Ravens and the Thousand Sons, they are the epitome of the warrior scholar, of the philosopher at war and very much in tune with my character. I am eager for every snippet of lore, every tiny fact or word that cements the link between the Thousand Sons and the Blood Ravens and with all heart I cannot presume otherwise.

It is certain that never we would get an official confirmation of the above, never we would see a proof of link (though many suggestions and allegories are the norm, on the fan base lies the task to collect them and make our mind), but this makes this all the sweetest and as proper scholars we should be on the lookout for every snippet of lore.

In the end the main question is always about the dreaded flesh-change, why are not the Blood Ravens subject to it, or are they indeed freed from it? I think not, mutation seems to be present still in the Blood Raven genome, I recall a Blood Raven initiate that when he received the geneseed his hands mutated, warped and had to be amputated and bionics had to be integrated instead.

So yeah I think that beneath the many gilded libraries of the Blood Ravens lie dark dungeons where mutated beasts, once astartes reside and they are experimented upon, the cruse of the gene line still vivid and present and a dire psykana discipline enforced across the entire chapter. Now I only expect a Blood Raven to turn into a spawn and go nom nom.

[ArcticFox]

The latest Codex:Space Marines doesn't point right at the Thousand Sons, but it does narrow the possibilities nicely.  It lists the Blood Ravens as one of the chapters whose origins are kept as a close secret, suggesting that their Primarch is NOT one of the loyalist ones.  Otherwise, why keep it secret?  If we have to choose a likely candidate from among the fallen Primarchs... well, Magnus definitely stands as the most likely candidate.