Speeder tactics

[Rogue]

Hello

 

I'm about to start putting together a speeder I was given, and I'm not sure how to arm it (and I don't play frequently enough to proxy a variety of load-outs without it taking the best part of a year).

 

I know there's a lot of love for the typhoon pattern at the moment, particularly against Nids, it seems (the army I play against most frequently), but is that pattern decisively better than the others?

 

Is the tornado effective, or are you normally going to be giving up one of your weapons because they're all coming in above st4 and you're busy batting around the table at over 12" each turn?

 

In short, if you had one speeder with one fixed weapon pattern, what would you do?

 

Cheers

[greatcrusade08]

ill highlight a few set-ups and uses that id use:

Heavy flamer speeder, for clearing cover and Low T/sv armies like guard, orks, tau etc

MM speeder, for tank busting

 

Combi MM/HF speeder for all rounder armies, just incase you dont know who your facing or may need them to suddenly change targets.

 

typhoon, great vs nearly everything.. these are making a big hit at the moment.

 

Land speeder storms, can be used for all above.. scouts onboard can haveheavy weapons too, so stationary LSS can be treated as typhoons although more expensive and less capable

[Tech Brother Torgo]

Best advice I can give is to magnetize the thing so you can have any variant you want for any battle. I just got two last week and am finishing the assembly now so that they can be turned into whichever variant I choose. Mostly I'm planning on running Typhoon with HB or MM/HF Tornado, but you never know what will be good in the next edition...

 

Oh, and if I had to pick one weapon, I'd just run my MM attack bikes instead :P

[Rogue]

But doesn't multi-melta/heavy flamer really suffer from the whole 'one weapon wasted' thing? The flamer will bounce off armoured targets, and the melta is serious overkill against flamable hordes.

 

What about the assault cannon/heavy bolter combination? ANd has anyone tried running with doubles - two heavy flamers or twin heavy bolters?

 

Yeah, one of the comments I found about the typhoon was that it's the only fit the gives you the option of firing defensive weapons (via frag), and still getting all your firepower at high speed. It's currently the most interesting looking fit.

[Vel'Cona]

The HF/MM configuration does tend to waste one weapon or the other, but the extra cost is somewhat offset by the operational flexibility, especially with the new C:Tyranids changing our play styles again.

 

Classic Tornado builds (AC/HB) aren't bad by any stretch. The problem there is that AC were nerfed coming into 5th, and the cost of the AC hasn't decreased by enough (if at all) to compensate for this. MM give us better anti-tank for less cost, in this case. Two Heavy Bolters isn't a bad config, and the price is reasonable. The problem here is a Dakkapred can do the same for a reasonable increase in cost and far better survivability, and the added Autocannon for light vehicle killing (obiously this comes at the cost of speed). You could also argue HB Attack Bikes as better in this case. Twin HF is often unnecessary, as most things that your HF can negate the armor save of will likely die to a single template, or nearly enough.

 

Typhoons are hot because they combine a plethora of strong components in one package: they're fast, they're able to engage lightly armored and heavily armored targets with equal effect, and they're reasonably affordable as well. The flexibility is hard to beat, especially in a tournament environment where unpredictable metagame can spell doom for a focused army (once again referencing C:Tyranids forcing veterans to rethink their lists).

[Chengar Qordath]

The HF/MM configuration does tend to waste one weapon or the other, but the extra cost is somewhat offset by the operational flexibility, especially with the new C:Tyranids changing our play styles again.

There's also the fact that, since both of the weapons are very close-range, the speeder is usually going to be moving 12" to get into position for its next shot, so it will only be able to use one weapon anyway.

[Captain Idaho]

It may seem like the MM/HF Tornado suffers from wasted weapons, it has the following counter arguements:

 

• It is cheap. Points wasted is not so debilitating.
  
• If you want your Landspeeder to move over 6" anway you will only be firing a single weapon anway!
  

[Rogue]

So what you're saying is that, in terms of firepower, the regular and the tornado will both usually be in a position to fire just one weapon, but the tornado (for a small extra cost), gives you the tactical flexibility to choose what that weapon is. Fair?

 

If AC/HB loses out versus tanks, why not MM/HB? Everyone seems to switch straight over to the flamer once the melta comes out.

[DarkGuard]

So what you're saying is that, in terms of firepower, the regular and the tornado will both usually be in a position to fire just one weapon, but the tornado (for a small extra cost), gives you the tactical flexibility to choose what that weapon is. Fair?

 

If AC/HB loses out versus tanks, why not MM/HB? Everyone seems to switch straight over to the flamer once the melta comes out.

 

The reason why people tend to prefer MM/HF over MM/HB is the range. If your using your MM to destroy a tank, chances are you're within 12" of the enemy at least. Now while the HB has a greater range than the HF, it has a better potential for damage in close, able to hit more models with the same strength and AP as the HB. IF you're within melta range, you're pretty much near enough in flamer range too. That HF can be used to flame any unit that comes out of the transport you destroyed, and to prove a nuisance. Don't expect the MM/HF Tornados to survive though, as they are a nuisance factor the enemy will want to get rid off.

 

I will, however, throw my weight behind the Typhoon. I own two of these (although I've only ever played one and don't use them as much now due to my fluffy list), but when I've used one it has been very good, able to knock out transports and other light vehicles, put wounds on MCs, destroy infantry and threaten MEQ. If you move 12" you either fire your krak missiles at light vehicles or MCs, or fire your HB and frags at infantry. These are versatile, and their long range and speed means you can reliably keep them out of small arms fire and force your opponent to dedicate proper anti-tank weapons to destroy them (ie. lascannons).

[Giga]

Multimelta + heavy flamer speeders are overall most useful, I think. They offer mobile anti-tank AND mobile anti-infantry. They ignore cover saves, and they are relatively cheap (a squadron of 3 costs 210 pts). You can't really go wrong with them, as they work very well against anything.

 

Typhoon + heavy bolter speeders are more expensive (3 cost 270 pts). They're more like a firebase, as you keep them in the back and take advantage of their long range, which also enables you to get cover saves while still being able to move 6" and shoot everything. If you regularly play against nids, then typhoons+hb are absolute gold.

 

Multimelta+heavy bolter speeders are cool if you wanna run a gunline. This gives you some strong anti-tank to defend from those land raiders, combined with lots of heavy bolter shots, creating an effective mix of anti-infantry and anti-tank.

[Koremu]

The HF/MM configuration does tend to waste one weapon or the other, but the extra cost is somewhat offset by the operational flexibility, especially with the new C:Tyranids changing our play styles again.

There's also the fact that, since both of the weapons are very close-range, the speeder is usually going to be moving 12" to get into position for its next shot, so it will only be able to use one weapon anyway.

And because it is close you want it moving 12" so that it requires 6s to hit in assault. An AV 10 vehicle being hit on 4s is in trouble.

 

One important thing about Speeders is that they come in Squadrons, and you can use the hit assignment rules to your advantage. Take a Squadron of 2 Typhoon/HB speeders and a single dual-HB one. You can now use the cheaper Speeder as a "catcher" for those dangerous penetrating hits, and still put it behind hard cover in order to help the Squadron get a 4+ Cover Save without having to compromise the Typhoons LOS.

 

A forward-role Squadron I like is 2*MM/HF Speeders and an AC/HF speeder.

 

Also, use the shorter flying base and Land Speeders float at the right height to gain Cover from a Rhino hull while still able to fire the weapon mounted on the upper chassis over the top at no penalty (including the Typhoon). This is very important, and is why the Heavy Flamer on MM/HF Speeders should always be under the nose, leaving the upper mount for the longer ranged weapon.

 

One of my preferred "fluffy" units is a 5 man Tactical Squad in a Razorback, backed up by a pair of Land Speeders - obviously half the Tactical Squad has been temporarily reassigned to the Speeders or as the extra gunner for the RB!

[waaanial00]

Have been running two Typhoons in every Marine list for the last 4 weeks, thats 3 games (because I played as Orks once). I had proxied it a couple of times before that.

 

I can safely say if you run a Typhoon you will rarely regrett it. You (the OP) seem to have got caught up on the fact that they cannot shoot both weapons and move 12". What I would ask is why you feel you need to move a vehicle with a 36" maximum effective range (the range you get to when you do the most amount of damage possible) over 6" a turn?

 

A Typhoon will happily sit back and launch two Krak missiles and 3 Heavy Bolter shots at 30" range without really worrying about much in a well built list because:

 

- If you have sufficient vehicles and threats closer the enemy is unlikely to be able to dedicate enough shots to really make sure its dead

- In the grand scheme of things its still a vehicle and as such is quite survivable (despite the ease of actually penetrating the armour, once you are in the damage table you are no more likely to get destroyed than any other vehicle).

- People will underestimate how hard these things are to kill at range. It maybe AV10 but that doesnt mean a single Krak missile is going to be sufficient to kill it.

 

It is actually more survivable than any other type of speeder because it operates outside of the range of most basic weapons, which is usually what ends up killing my other speeders.

 

I run just MM speeders as well (take a look at the Liber Victum to see my recent lists) and I find them to be sufficient and cheap anti tank weapons. Ok if I am facing hoard it sucks not having the Heavy Flamers but I just cant face having two distinct weapons and having to chose which one I want to fire.

 

Whatever you do, dont run just single HB speeders. A minimal investment makes the model FAR more effective.

 

Wan

[Vel'Cona]

Ah, the advantages of three-dimensional thinking, eh Koremu? :)

 

Good points, all around. This thread has actually made me look at what sort of LS configuration I'll be setting up for my upcoming BA list. With the up-cost of MM Attack Bikes rumored for C:BA, I'm very much leaning toward the LS end of the spectrum for this one.

[Koremu]

Ah, the advantages of three-dimensional thinking, eh Koremu? <_<

Three-dimensionality is critical to Speeder ops.

 

I'm quite convinced that a lot of the issues that people have with Land Speeders is due to lack of Terrain. I have nice, chunky sized urban buildings. Not only do they form major LOS blockers, but they are big enough to perch a Land Speeder Squadron on the roof. That gives you an additional 9" to 12" that the enemy has to move in order to close on you while (due to Pythagorean mathematics) it's very little additional range for your weapons to fire.

 

Sure, you lose a Speeder on a role of a 1. But if all goes well, you have the equivalent of a Devastator Squads firepower on a roof without losing any turns of firing to get there. Have faith in the Emperor and victory shall be yours!

 

Speeders operate at their best in terrain where their supermobility gives them the greatest advantage. This is why they are supreme in Urban combat.

 

Rolling, hilly terrain in good too. Providing they are high enough to block LOS, then you can dodge from valley to valley blindsighting the enemy Heavy Weapons.

 

Alltogether too many people play 40k on tables that resemble Fantasy Battle tables. Remember, Fantasy has scenery, 40k has Terrain.

[Captain Idaho]

Oooh, here is another benefit to using multiple Landspeeders in an army with plenty of Rhinos and Razorbacks:

 

Weapons optimum for taking down Landspeeders are also often best used against our transports. This means weapons fire needs to be split by your opponent, particularly if you're using Typhoons taht are hanging back and the opponent can't get lots of bolters to shoot our Landspeeders.

 

Consider also a pair of dual Heavy bolter Landspeeders in a squadron. 12 S5, BS4 shots a turn at range for a mere 120pts!

 

Stacking Landspeeders in your army is most effective as opponents can't take out the threat they pose in a single turn without serious luck (or you are playing like a chimp)

[Tasche]

its all about typhoon launchers!

 

running around with 2 krak shots at vehicles left and right...especially when your allowed to move 12in...haha, side armour i heard?

[Vel'Cona]

(due to Pythagorean mathematics)

 

You just blew my mind, man. :lol:

 

Excellent point, though. The Attack Bike spam we've seen in such popularity recently (based on cost) benefits greatly from flat tables. Skimmers really start showing their stripes once we factor in dense urban terrain, rolling hills, and the like. I've had more people bemoan me putting Tactical Squads in accessible buildings for entire games, to hold objectives or simply to be a pain to dislodge. They seem to forget that 3+ armor save doesn't mean bulletproof (or missile proof).

 

Definitely feeling a squadron of speeders for the BA revival.

[DerekLee688]

I've embraced the typhoon because it does two things for me. One, adds missle launchers to any list. Since they are becoming more useful accross the board transports/nid MC's. Two, they free up a heavy slot for larger games.

 

Tornado's are fast platforms for MM. So are attack bikes, but they don't have another weapon slot. Heavy flamers are nice because they destroy anything not MEQ, and you don't get many chances to run many. Terminators, Sternguard, and Dreadnaughts thats about it.