CML vs Assault Cannon

[Prophecy]

I did the searchy thing and this hasn't been specifically addressed that I could see.

 

When it comes to Wolf Guard in TDA, I see two major choices. You either give one a CML and stick him with the Long Fangs, or you give him an Assault Cannon and run him further forward with someone.

 

I see everyone taking the CML, which is nice with it's 48' range, but if range is not an issue (and the AC is no slouch, my GH are usually far enough forward that it can hit what it needs to) what is the benefit of the CML? Against anything other than a mob, it has roughly the same killy power as the frag grenade, and with the greater shot volume, high strength and rending, is almost as good versus vehicles.

 

So...why the CML over the AC? Mathhammer-wise, the AC seems to win?

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

i hate math hammer.

 

however lets look at what we have

 

 

the cml has range, str, and a better ap.

 

the assault cannon has rending and more shots at minus 2 str and 1 ap.

 

the cml is going to wound more and knock out feel no pain and power armour on a better basis.

 

also it helps in our heavy weapon+ ranged department

 

 

what i feel to be a good combo is to take a 5 man bare bones wolf guard squad and give the 5th one termie and cyclone. if you have missile long fangs you can add 2 more shots to their shooting which is never something to laugh at.

[Ullr Direfang]

i have to say i agree with Betrayed on this one. i feel that CML is a little better in the current system. the range and versatility allows for quick engagements and good stopping power. I do run AsC though, they are currently all i have, but they seem wolfish to me. I only run the AsC when i feel i have filled the hard hitting heavy weapon rolls that are need for a good rounded list.

[TiguriusX]

Technically it is Assault cannon v. CML + Storm bolter

 

4 shots from both

 

Superior range and killing power from CML in my opinion

[Lord Ragnarok]

My vote is for CML. (And I loooove A Cannons). The pluses for CML for me are range(especially in sloggin GH packs) and versatility of frag/Krak for dealing with weak troops or transports.

[Kjarl Grimblood]

CMS is way better. You get extra range and added versatility. Extra range gives you more shots per game. You get your storm bolter shots as well. Against tougher targets the Krak is more effective than the Assault Cannon. Against softer targets the Frag is better than the Assault Cannon. The Assault Cannon went down a lot in effectiveness in 5th edition (new Rending rules), and the cost hasn't reflected that change yet.

 

So in case you haven't guessed, Cyclone Missile Launcher all the way. :)

[Prophecy]

CML definitely has the majority vote, huh? Tigurius makes a very good point that I hadn't thought of before when I was doing my mathhammer. Thanks for clearing it up guys.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Guess I'll have to paint up some of my Cyclones.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

well thats what you get for math hammering. forget the math go have fun.

[Chucku]

Cyclones for me. I like the range, Heavy2 and options for hitting swarms or vehicles & AP3 goodness.

 

I see the appeal of Assault Cannons but to be honest they just don't like me. It seems like every time I shoot one I hit with 2 out of 4 shots and then I just wound once from those two shots (and NEVER seem to rend). So unless they're twin-linked I don't use them.

[Godhead]

From my personal experience I absolutely prefer the AC over frags from a CML. I've become jaded with rockets and pretty much feel like if you aren't firing kraks then it just isn't worth it. With the amount of cover saves typically available ap isn't as big an issue, especially if you are firing from a long distance. I love the str 6 ac vs the str 4 frags. My AC dreads kill far more than a double shot frag shot. The CML IMO comes into its own when used in conjunction with Long fangs w/ ML and or TML speeders. It allows you to lay down a volume of str 8 ap 3 shots thats sure to devastate whatever the focus is. I do prefer the AC over the ML when facing AR14 simply because the ac can pen and I need a volume of shots anyways since my dice hate me and I cant rely on just one or two hits to do anything <_<

[Hfran Morkai]

I run a CML with my Lord's Retinue in large games, because they're armed with TH/SS but when taking shooting Terminator packs I take an Assault Cannon first and then a heavy flamer, yeah I'm weird.

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

A Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour with CML+Power Wep is an awesome addition to the my 6 man Missile launcher Long Fangs Pack. The Unit now pumps out 7 Krak/Frag missiles a turn at two targets if I want and can soak up any AP3 hits. I do like missile spam though my current list has them plus two Typhoons pumping out 11 Missile a turn.

 

For friendlier games though I'd go with an AC as I think they look the bee's knee's.

[TiguriusX]

From my personal experience I absolutely prefer the AC over frags from a CML. I've become jaded with rockets and pretty much feel like if you aren't firing kraks then it just isn't worth it. With the amount of cover saves typically available ap isn't as big an issue, especially if you are firing from a long distance. I love the str 6 ac vs the str 4 frags. My AC dreads kill far more than a double shot frag shot. The CML IMO comes into its own when used in conjunction with Long fangs w/ ML and or TML speeders. It allows you to lay down a volume of str 8 ap 3 shots thats sure to devastate whatever the focus is. I do prefer the AC over the ML when facing AR14 simply because the ac can pen and I need a volume of shots anyways since my dice hate me and I cant rely on just one or two hits to do anything :)

 

 

Why use frags when you can get 4 shots from CML using kraks + SB?

2x S8 AP3

2x S4 AP5

 

vs

 

4x S6 AP4

 

The S8 AP3 allows instant kills and MEQ armor negation

 

I know the possibility to rend is nice but you have guaranteed results using krak missiles and increased range at the cost of 2 SB shots (which isn't exactly a peashooter) instead of 2 AC shots (I consider the 2 kraks to be superior to 2 AC shots)

[Godhead]

If you are greater than 24 inches away, then the stormbolter shots are a moot point since you don't have the range (I typically want to add the CML to longfangs). If I want to use both, then I typically have to change where I put the WG in my army. I cannot put him in a rhino so that limits him to a a drop pod or foot slogging in my lists. I don't footslog and I'm reluctant to put a CML in a pod because i'll drop close, rapid fire, and then most likely be locked in close combat. That means there will be 1-2 turns that I can't utilize the missiles, and he's also limited to firing at squads that his attached squad fired at. If I use the assault cannon, then it's typically because i'm running a squad of terminators with stormbolters.

 

Sometimes when you have massed troops with an armor value of 5 or 6 then its tempting to fire frags. In the end, i've come to prefer trying to resist the temptation and taking my two str 8 krak shots and calling it a day.

 

Also as I stated earlier, it is personal preference. You just can't predict bad dice, and for me the only way to really counter a bad run on the die roll is to simply roll more dice and the assault cannon at str 6 lets me have more effect dice to roll.

[saphius]

I hate to throw a wrench in the discussion but I'm going to have to say... Heavy Flamer. The cost - benefit ratio of HF Vs the other options is just to high for me. A 10 Strong GH unit W/ 2 Flamer, a WG w/ a HF in a land raider redeemer just trashes the front lines of any army.

[Pavement Artist]

I agree with saphius. Although ive yet to run it with a redeemer squad, the GH W/ HF WG is a line breaker and a half. These lads found themselves merrily strolling through some greenskins in a 3vs3 battle i had last december. The CML in the Long fangs is tempting as my heavy weapons lads have been making a poor show of it recently.

 

Any sucess stories with this set up?

[Godhead]

I agree with saphius as well. If I am sticking a squad in a LR they get flamers and I too will stick a HF in there if Arjac isn't riding with them. Let the MM on the roof with the PotMS do the tank poppin'.

[Pavement Artist]

I've been thinking of running Arjac with my Flamer heavy wolf guard termies actually. Has he worked well for you guys?

[Godhead]

I find myself falling in love with flamers. They allow you to put such a high volume of hits on units. You just need to have the right delivery system. Packs in LRs and all my dreads roll with flamers and heavy flamers.