Loading out Long Fangs for Bughunting

[Hear da Lamentation]

With the new 'Nid codex out - the big increase in those pesky bugs deepstriking / drop podding - and the reduction on some of their saving throws, I was wondering what the Wolves think is the best weapons loadout for our trusty Long Fangs.

 

I LOVE plasma cannons, and they have won a good number of games for me .... but I was thinking today .... do I really want a template AP2 weapon going off against enemies which have just DP/DS as close to my troops as possible? One slight mishap - and my lovely wolves could be in some trouble.

 

Lascannons are great (although expensive) - but really they are only going to be good to insta-kill MC with less than 5 toughness. (otherwise they just dont kick out the required number of hits)

ML - great, as usual. But they don't have the best AP

HB - lots of hits .... but what about the AP?

 

the LF are bound to be a big target for the 'Nids, and this time they won't be half a board away to give time to get lots of shots in ... so I guess you need to kick out as much damage as quickly as possible, before they get squished.

 

So ... what are your thoughts Wolves?

 

H.D.L.

[TheLastHuzzah]

I've only played against the new nids once, but 3x ML and 2x LC worked magnificently, if you can squeeze the points in throw a bare bones wolf guard in the unit for an ablative wound.

 

I would imagine a full squad of ML would work just as well, the toughest bug I encountered was T6 and highest armor save was 3+.

 

The above being said, I don't really tailor armies to fight against specific opponents and the 3x ML 2x LC loadout has worked well for me outside of the nids.

 

I think 4 of my 6 Longfangs survived the game, but there wasn't a ton of firepower going in to them as my opponent was more worried about the two vindis that accompanied the fangs.

 

-Huzzah

 

edit- not sure why i confused GH and LF

[Rindaris]

I'm working on a nid army of my own while playing SW as my primary army. Missile Launchers should be fine. LS won't grant you insta-kill vs anything a missile launcher wouldn't already. Your biggest fear of anything with Armor of 2+ would be a hive tyrant, and if it has that then it isn't flying, so that gives you more time to deal with it. MLs will tear apart Warriors and punch holes in the bigger bugs, for far less points then a LC would. So if you're tailoring your list I would stick with 5x ML.

[stinkenheim]

dont waste points on lascannon, stick with MLs. they can use blast templates to kill little things and ignore the armour of all but zoanthropes and some tyrants (might be another MC thats a gun bug but can't remember).

[Hear da Lamentation]

Fantastic ! Thanks.

 

I only really play 2 armies (Deathwing and Tyranids) and I don't mind "tweeking" per fight. (I dont change much ... just some weapons ... and a Vindi is just too much fun not to have against the bugs).

 

One more question then ..... Dreadnaught.

 

I usually have a Dread as a backup to my LF (as extra fire power and in case they get attacked in cc.) So I have a PC and CCW. Does he stand a chance now against the new MC in CC? Or am I better off going for 2 missile weapons?

[stinkenheim]

against MCs dreads will always be hard pushed, some like tyrants will attack before you and likely destro the dread, others like carnies have too many wounds for you to kill before they attack back.

where dreads really do well is against thing like lictors, ravenors, warriors and zoanthropes where without bad lucj they are unlikely to be damaged and yet they will instant kill anything they touch.

 

i would be tempted to go for assault cannon/autocannon and a heavy flamer and only engage MC as a last resort. use it against smaller things and it will do well.

 

I play as nids, and i know if a dread/killa kan (my usual opponent is orks) gets into combat with a MC ive won, if he gets it in against smaller things i need to help them out as losing synapse is so painfull.

 

also if there is a mass combat involving rippers and other, harder nid units, use anything that causes ID on the rippers and make the harder stuff take a multitude of wounds through 'No retreat' its a killer for fearless hordes.

[Yeti]

Another vote for the 5x ML. It's plenty to take down the bugs. Aside from the tyrant, I beleive that a version of the trygon can also have a 2+ save. Everything else is T6 and 3+ save, so missile launchers wound on 2+, no save.

 

As for the dread, the CCW is still good, as long as you don't face MCs. If you can avoid them, you'll munch through any of the smaller bugs. A halfway solution would be an assault cannon w/ heavy flamer. The bugs will come to you, shoot 'em up, fry 'em and charge the remnants.

[Rindaris]

If new MC you're refering to is the Trygon/Mawloc then its iffy. Trygon is gonna hit on 3s (unless you bought a Venerable) and needs a 6 on 2d6 to glance. Mawloc needs 4s, but same odds are opening up the dreadnought. Trygon has 6 attacks, 7 on the charge. Mawloc half as many. Against either you are hitting at the same time.

 

So against a Mawloc you have fair odds, but a Trygon i think is gonna tear it asunder without to much trouble. Mawlocs main trick is the damage it deals when coming into play. Properly deploy and it won't worry you to much.

 

The main issue of course is you're likely to only have one turn to open fire on them before being charged. If one of these beasts popped up near your dread and fangs the best bet would be to refocus them all on it and blast it. With 6 wounds each it could take them all to finish off the beast. Nice thing however is its got a PA equalivant save. So enough massed fire will drop these beasts without to much trouble.

 

I wouldn't rely on a single dreadnought to handle either of these beasts. But with some support it could likely do the deed.

[Bartali]

Not a fan of Dreads in CC, there's far too many things that can pop it, and it's only average at best in cc with two base attacks. Mine normally dies to rends from Genestealers and now Warriors when playing Tyranids

[Iacton Qruze]

My vote's on the 5x ML as well. If you're running dreads, you should run 2 and use the buddy system.

 

Typhoons are really your friend against bugs, though. the speed keeps you away from their lower ranged weapons/ cc dangers, and 2 missiles per LS will help you either thin the hordes, instakill the warriors, or put more wounds on the big bugs.

 

Know your enemies' long ranged weapons, and deny LOS accordingly, and you can do a lot of damage, which might make them refocus their efforts away from the fangs, which are more dangerous for their split fire.

[Grimtooth]

In my everything list, I have my Long Fangs broken down as such:

 

3xML, 2xHB, Pack leader with melta gun joined by WGPL TDA and assault cannon.

 

3xHB, 2xML, Pack leader with melta gun joined by WGPL TDA and CML

 

5xPC, Pack leader with plasmagun, joined by WGPL with stormshield/storm bolter

[Hear da Lamentation]

Loads of info - thanks.

 

A couple of things.

 

Trygon is gonna hit on 3s (unless you bought a Venerable) and needs a 6 on 2d6 to glance. Mawloc needs 4s, but same odds are opening up the dreadnought. Trygon has 6 attacks, 7 on the charge.

 

Oh Dear ! Note to Dread. Stay AWAY from the Trygon. AWAY from the Trygon

 

Yeah, my dread is always a support guy really. No steaming in there for cc - he just backs up the LongFangs. Sort of like a bouncer :D

 

The other thing, was this .... don't quite understand how this works

 

also if there is a mass combat involving rippers and other, harder nid units, use anything that causes ID on the rippers and make the harder stuff take a multitude of wounds through 'No retreat' its a killer for fearless hordes.

 

I understand that all the units are taken into account when deciding who wins combat - but how do the wounds have to be distributed?

 

H.D.L.

[stinkenheim]

if a fearless unit lose combat they take a number of wounds equal to the amount they lost by.

according to the rule book (or at least how i read it) models that suffer ID count as having taken more than 1 wound. therefore if you are in a fight and kill 5 rippers through ID, that equates to 15 wounds.

the harder nid units then need to take a number of armour saves equal to the amount of wounds they lost combat by, and with a 3+ save they will take 1 wound out of 3 so if they lost by 15, that means they should be taking about 5 wounds, more than enough to kill most MC.

 

obvioulsy this applies to multiple combats, im not trying to say that a ive tyrant not in combat takes wounds becaue rippers die.

[Grimtooth]

Well explained Stink. It is the bad side of being fearless.

[Grey Mage]

For Long Fangs- 5 Missile Launchers, or 4 missile launchers and a lascannon.

 

Why? Because its cheap. Str 8 will instagib most of the big uglies and wound everything on a 2+ with no armor save... except one model that might be in the army but has no official model- the tyranofex.

[Hear da Lamentation]

if a fearless unit lose combat they take a number of wounds equal to the amount they lost by.

according to the rule book (or at least how i read it) models that suffer ID count as having taken more than 1 wound. therefore if you are in a fight and kill 5 rippers through ID, that equates to 15 wounds.

 

Thats how I see it too.

 

the harder nid units then need to take a number of armour saves equal to the amount of wounds they lost combat by, and with a 3+ save they will take 1 wound out of 3 so if they lost by 15, that means they should be taking about 5 wounds, more than enough to kill most MC.

 

What ... so EVERY unit in that combat which loses takes the same number of wounds (15 in this case)? Wowa, is that right?

[stinkenheim]

yeah, in multiple combat everyone on the losing side tests at the same level (the amount your side lost combat by) even if the individual units did better than others.

 

example.

 

Hive Tyrant, 10 stealers and 10 rippers are fighting in the same combat.

the hive tyrant takes no wounds and causes 5.

The stealers take 2 wounds but cause 2

the rippers cause no wounds but suffer 4 normal wounds and 3 ID wounds.

 

when the scores are worked out the Nids caused 7 wounds but took 15. They lost combat by 8, normally this would mean every unit on the losing side suffers a -8 modifier to their ld, as the nids are fearless every unit instead takes 8 wounds through 'No Retreat'.

 

so this is why i say use the ID weapons against things like rippers, warriors and ravenors as they are easier to hit, especially if you have had some of the debuffing spells cast on you, or incase the tyrant has things like acid blood which will hurt. Ignore the hard stuff and beat up the weakest units forcing them to take loads of wounds through no retreat, its cheesy and like bullying the little kids for lunch money but hey, those little kids have 6 legs and will eat your face if your not careful so swings and round abouts.

[Spacefrisian]

Also consider a runepriest with the "units deepstriking land in difficult terrain" power (forgot its name and havent got the codex at hand). This prevents the Longfangs being targetted by a Trygon/ Mawloc. These big things have a rule that if they were to land in such type terrain they move to the nearest spot where its save, in this case it works against them.

[stinkenheim]

really? i dont remember reading that, although if they did have surely it would only apply to impassable terrain similar to the rle drop pods have.

[Spacefrisian]

really? i dont remember reading that, although if they did have surely it would only apply to impassable terrain similar to the rle drop pods have.

 

 

Its the same so i was told.

[Grey Mage]

*pulls a copy of the relevant codex from the warp*

 

The Mawloc doesnt suffer DS mishaps for landing on enemy models ONLY. So no protection from Dangerous Terrain there.

 

Trygons only reduce the distance for enemy models and impassable terrain.

 

So yeah, both would have issues with dangerous terrain tests.

[Progenitor]

I have five Long Fangs in my list which is not tailored against any army. I take two Missile Launchers and two Lascannons as this suffices against most armies. I also back them up with a Heavy Bolter Razorback, it's cheap as chips and gives them some protection from light infantry headed their way. In Dawn of War games it also allows them to speed out somewhere turn one to set up a nice arc of fire in the following turns.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks guys. That should sort me out nicely.

 

pulls a copy of the relevant codex from the warp*

 

The Mawloc doesnt suffer DS mishaps for landing on enemy models ONLY. So no protection from Dangerous Terrain there.

 

Trygons only reduce the distance for enemy models and impassable terrain.

 

So yeah, both would have issues with dangerous terrain tests.

 

Awesome ! That is going to help out quite a bit I would think. Thanks to everyone who pointed that one out.

 

I think I am going to go for 5 missile launchers with the LF - and a plasma cannon and CCW with the dread "security guard".

 

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

H.D.L.

[MalachiOfRuss]

yeah, in multiple combat everyone on the losing side tests at the same level (the amount your side lost combat by) even if the individual units did better than others.

 

example.

 

Hive Tyrant, 10 stealers and 10 rippers are fighting in the same combat.

the hive tyrant takes no wounds and causes 5.

The stealers take 2 wounds but cause 2

the rippers cause no wounds but suffer 4 normal wounds and 3 ID wounds.

 

when the scores are worked out the Nids caused 7 wounds but took 15. They lost combat by 8, normally this would mean every unit on the losing side suffers a -8 modifier to their ld, as the nids are fearless every unit instead takes 8 wounds through 'No Retreat'.

 

so this is why i say use the ID weapons against things like rippers, warriors and ravenors as they are easier to hit, especially if you have had some of the debuffing spells cast on you, or incase the tyrant has things like acid blood which will hurt. Ignore the hard stuff and beat up the weakest units forcing them to take loads of wounds through no retreat, its cheesy and like bullying the little kids for lunch money but hey, those little kids have 6 legs and will eat your face if your not careful so swings and round abouts.

Just to be clear (in case anyone is confused), this only occurs when use lose a close combat, so you can't cause this kind of situation by pummeling the 'nids with lascannons or krak missiles.

[HERO]

5x ML is the best.

 

You can put wounds on all his MCs except those with 2+s, instant-kill Warriors and split fire to kill Spores for easy KP.