Space Marine Metagame

[H.C.118]

So what is the current Space Marine metagame these days? What is so cheesy from the codex? I'd like to know for future reference so I don't have to kill my opponent in a non-ard boyz tournament?

[Warp Angel]

So what is the current Space Marine metagame these days? What is so cheesy from the codex? I'd like to know for future reference so I don't have to kill my opponent in a non-ard boyz tournament?

 

Metagame depends on where you are and who you're playing. Some places tool up to fight Marines, others don't. And Marines are so variable that it's entirely probable that your army isn't what they've prepared to fight.

 

There's a handful of things that tend to cheese off lesser experienced players though - even if they aren't the most effective units or builds:

 

1) TH/SS terminator spam

2) 3 Vindicator lists

3) Land Raider spam

4) All bike armies

5) Vulkan and twin linked everything

 

But, like I said, it varies.

[greatcrusade08]

shrike first turn assault lists are nasty, but very unreliable..

 

edit: to answer the question we ma need to give the jeske a good nudge, that man knows about SM metagame

[Vel'Cona]

edit: to answer the question we ma need to give the jeske a good nudge, that man knows about SM metagame

 

Seconded. Dude knows competitive 40k, I have to admit.

[ShinyRhino]

Vulkan lists are still popular, though I haven't personally faced one in a while. They tend to combine Vulkan, a Captain in Artificer Armor, and a 5-man Hammernator squad in a Land Raider, and as many melta and flamer weapons as you can possibly fit in the remaining points. Typically these are fielded by tactical squads and multiple multimelta+heavy flamer armed Landspeeder squadrons.

 

Sternguard are and will always be popular, typically in a drop pod with either Pedro Cantor or a Librarian with Gate of Infinity.

 

Fifth Edition in general has seen the rise of the light transport vehicle, since they're so hard to kill under the new rules. Most everything is in a trasnport of some kind, if possible.

[ShinyRhino]

edit: to answer the question we ma need to give the jeske a good nudge, that man knows about SM metagame

 

Seconded. Dude knows competitive 40k, I have to admit.

 

Semi-seconded. He knows his local meta, but presents it all in a very abrasive way :D

[H.C.118]

abrasive? How? Otherwise, I'll try to PM him

[Warp Angel]

He can be abrasive, but he also knows his stuff. I am cautioning you once again though... your local play environment means more than any list of "cheese" we can give you here.

 

If your play area is mostly Necrons, Tau, and gunline Marines, then fielding assault marines in quanity is annoying and may make people angry. They can't stop you from closing with them and wiping them out.

 

But if you try an assault marine and bike heavy army up against Space Wolves or Chaos where assault marines are mostly ineffective in CC, it's not going to make people angry.

 

A vindicator heavy list or raider spam dies badly to Tau, but chews up many MEQ armies.

 

And, if you're like me, then your play environment's opponents are going to be cool people who aren't going to get annoyed when you field a very competetive list and will instead build one to smack you down the next time you try and play it. So you HAVE to play balanced and non-cheesy or lose regularly.

 

Explore your environment, talk to people, find out what they think is "broken".

[minigun762]

Or just try to build a balanced all-comers list that has all the bases covered. Alot of the times having a flexible list that doesn't always rely on the same technique performed each game can be alot more fun to play.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I always run an all comers list

[Race Bannon]

All-comer lists are safe as you can transport it anywhere. The thing I see on my end is people pulling out a tried-and-true list from a folder. Next week, same list different player, next week rinse and repeat. For them: fine. But I'd get bored (and have) fast using the same old list over and over. So, my advice is making the list to suit the opponent every time. I think it promotes learning how to use each unit within the army to make a better overall player, but it takes time and patience and throwing away a score card :lol:.

[ShinyRhino]

All-comer lists are safe as you can transport it anywhere. The thing I see on my end is people pulling out a tried-and-true list from a folder. Next week, same list different player, next week rinse and repeat. For them: fine. But I'd get bored (and have) fast using the same old list over and over. So, my advice is making the list to suit the opponent every time. I think it promotes learning how to use each unit within the army to make a better overall player, but it takes time and patience and throwing away a score card :).

 

This sort of discards the whole purpose of learning a local metagame, though. You've just narrowed your scope from the "local metagame of Richmond, VA" to "the local metagame of Bob Smith." You know know how to face Bob Smith, but not anyone else.

Yes, taking Marine-killing units will make you good at killing Marines, but it sure won't help you kill Orks or IG. Metagames are really only important in tournament settings, IMO. If you bring an Ork-hunter list to a tournament to which very few Ork players show up, you've shot yourself in the foot. If you knew how folks generally played in the area, you probably wouldn't have bothered bringing that Ork-hunter list.

 

People want to know the meta of Marine lists because they have always and likely will always be the most numerous force on the field, and opponents want o beat the largest number of opponents in a competitive setting that they can. You know, so they walk away with the prize!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I said I always run an all comers list but what I didn't say was it favors anti MEQ just a little more than horde. because lets face it it all comes down to a space marine vs space marine battle!

[DarkGuard]

I said I always run an all comers list but what I didn't say was it favors anti MEQ just a little more than horde. because lets face it it all comes down to a space marine vs space marine battle!

 

Agreed here, my local metagame has a lot of power armour armies, so while my list can cope with hordes, it is a bit more leaning towards anti-MEQ in it's composition. Of course, I think my metagame may have a bit more diversity than I give it credit for.

[greatcrusade08]

plasma cannons generally work against everyone, so id be tempted to run a few of these in every list.. put them on dreads and you avoid gets hot rolls

[minigun762]

plasma cannons generally work against everyone, so id be tempted to run a few of these in every list.. put them on dreads and you avoid gets hot rolls

 

Wise words. The same can be said about Missile Launchers, Power Fists and Rhinos. All of which are Marine staples.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah the 4 ML dev squads work against all but deathwing forces (even then can take down the dreads)

[minigun762]

yeah the 4 ML dev squads work against all but deathwing forces (even then can take down the dreads)

 

Its not too bad for Terminators either, assuming they deepstriking you, dropping 4 blasts onto a squad can help rack up some wounds.

[DarkGuard]

yeah the 4 ML dev squads work against all but deathwing forces (even then can take down the dreads)

 

Its not too bad for Terminators either, assuming they deepstriking you, dropping 4 blasts onto a squad can help rack up some wounds.

 

Although its often worth spicing the squad up with a lascannon to add some more punch and take advantage of that signum.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I'm the biggest advocate of lascannons and run atleast 9-10 in my list

 

however the key to taking down 3+ ward save ass terms is just stacking as many wounds on them as possible even if its bolters! make them roll 30 saving throws and watch the 1's pile up. so I think i'd take the blast templates vs deathwing

 

but then i'll have to go buy a dev squad because i dont have that many missile launchers!

[Giga]

I don't see the point of dev squads. Their weapons are overpriced, they suffer from leadership tests, they can be locked in assault, they automatically waste an entire turn of shooting in dawn of war deployment, and they aren't scoring even though they're practically tailor-made for the task.

 

Whatever devastators do, something else does way better.

 

If one wanted long-range anti-tank, one can just get two combipredators for 240 pts, giving himself 4 lascannon and 4 autocannon shots per turn, on a platform that will be ignored by most enemy shooting and that is also much more reliable.

 

If one wanted anti-infantry, a pair of dakkapreds are again a way better option, and cheaper, too. And I won't even start on how much better speeders can be.

 

 

 

 

I don't think devastators have a place in the current vanilla metagame.

[DarkGuard]

I don't see the point of dev squads. Their weapons are overpriced, they suffer from leadership tests, they can be locked in assault, they automatically waste an entire turn of shooting in dawn of war deployment, and they aren't scoring even though they're practically tailor-made for the task.

 

Whatever devastators do, something else does way better.

 

If one wanted long-range anti-tank, one can just get two combipredators for 240 pts, giving himself 4 lascannon and 4 autocannon shots per turn, on a platform that will be ignored by most enemy shooting and that is also much more reliable.

 

If one wanted anti-infantry, a pair of dakkapreds are again a way better option, and cheaper, too. And I won't even start on how much better speeders can be.

 

 

 

 

I don't think devastators have a place in the current vanilla metagame.

 

It really depends on how they work in your army. I'll admit that there are more effective choices, but those two combi-preds you talked about take up 2 heavy support slot while the devs only take up one. Also, in DoW chances are the preds won't get to shoot either, as IMO it would be better to move them 12" into position and wait out night fighting. And like Devs, Preds tend to need to be stationary to get the most out of them. The only thing they have over Preds is the fact that they are cheaper and better value for their points, and that small armes fire doesn't effect them.

 

But then Devs can't be taken out by a lucky lascannon shot :)

[Giga]

I'll admit that there are more effective choices, but those two combi-preds you talked about take up 2 heavy support slot while the devs only take up one.

From my own experience, I've never lacked heavy support slots with vanilla. At most, I use up 2 heavy support slots. The fact that my LR is a dedicated transport for my termies helps a lot, too. Hence, as far as I'm concerned, FoC chart is just about the last thing I think about when picking my heavy support.

Also, in DoW chances are the preds won't get to shoot either, as IMO it would be better to move them 12" into position and wait out night fighting.

Depends. Often in DoW I like to put a combat squad in a razorback up front, and then use its searchlight to mark an important transport or the like. I then proceed to move my army onto the board, 6" on the vehicles so they can shoot, and try to pwn that one target in turn 1, just as it arrived onto the table. Hence, I often get to shoot with the predator in turn 1. That autocannon is really useful right there, as it's two shots.

The only thing they have over Preds is the fact that they are cheaper and better value for their points, and that small armes fire doesn't effect them.

Over devs, you mean? Well, "cheaper, better value for points, and immune to small arms fire" is all the reason I need. :)

But then Devs can't be taken out by a lucky lascannon shot

I don't mind. The predator costs 120 pts. What if it gets destroyed? That's one lascannon shot that hasn't targeted my land raider or my transports, instead.

[Jackelope King]

Giga's got it right. If an IG player fires a las cannon at a squad of devastators, he's got a 42% chance of knocking a model off the board, which unless you've bolstered your squad size with ablative wounds, threatens to run you right off the table, and at the very least is going to knock off a weapon you paid good points for. If he fires that las cannon at my Predator, on the other hand, he's got an 8.33% chance to destroy it, and only a 12.5% chance of knocking off any weapons. Preds can eat las cannons to the front armor all day long. They gargle with las cannon fire at night for that extra minty-freshness. And for the points that you spend on one squad of Devs, I can spam 3 Dakka Preds.

 

At least Devs still has a place as Long Fangs in a Space Wolves army.

[waaanial00]

Also, in DoW chances are the preds won't get to shoot either, as IMO it would be better to move them 12" into position and wait out night fighting.

Depends. Often in DoW I like to put a combat squad in a razorback up front, and then use its searchlight to mark an important transport or the like. I then proceed to move my army onto the board, 6" on the vehicles so they can shoot, and try to pwn that one target in turn 1, just as it arrived onto the table. Hence, I often get to shoot with the predator in turn 1. That autocannon is really useful right there, as it's two shots.

 

Was just about to suggest that tactic, the number of times I see people do dawn of war shooting backwards is shocking. Use the tanks with search lights to light up the enemy and then use the guns that have a decent chance at breaking the enemy and work down, people get too caught up in their usual rules of shooting priority and forget that simply changing the order sometimes nets a better result.

 

As to the "Metagame" it really all depends on what is in your local area (as others have said before). In my area last year we have 50% chaos armies, now that 50% is 25% Chaos and 25% Wolves. Its an ever changing issue.

 

I definitely see a movement towards using Landspeeders more, MM/HF and Typhoons being the two most commonly seen. Tacticals in Rhinos with Power Fists, hey its a profile even if most people think that its too bread and butter to mention.

 

Though generally nothing is really "broken" in the Marine Codex. Sternguard maybe but at least they balanced them out by not giving them better saves or better BS. Expect a lot of melta!

 

Wan