Las/Twin linked plas Razorbacks?

[Giga]

termicide my friend, or outflank, or raptors, either way that things going down fast

Excellent. That means you're using your dangerous terminator squad to kill a 85-120 pts tank, rather then pop my land raider, or my speeder squadron, or my attack bikes, etc.

 

If my opponent spends lots of firepower, or expends a unit like termicide on a predator, or on an autocannon dread, or on a whirlwind etc. then I'm quite happy with the situation even if the pred/dread/whirlie didn't get a single casualty. Just the fact they absorbed what was potentially a devastating attack makes them more then worth it.

it is a real transport... it's listed under dedicated transports, so it's basically the difference between vanilla & french vanilla... the raider takes up a heavy slot, though it is great for soaking damage

It's a "real" transport that with a 6 model transport capacity, in an army where most infantry has to have 10 models in a unit in order to be able to take special/heavy weapons. Don't take me wrong, I love having my razorback for my defensive tac squad, but it's hardly the sort of vehicle one would want to have as the mainstay of one's army.

 

Also, the raider is a dedicated transport for terminators.

true, the top hatch is useful, but basically I wanted something that could help put out some shots after they unload the sterns, as like I said vanilla or french vanilla (for AV's)

Which is why you should take the standard razorback. It'll help out with shots, it'll be considerably cheaper, it won't attract as much firepower, and you won't care much if it doesn't get to shoot at all or gets its gun torn off.

[Possessed Marine]

It's a "real" transport that with a 6 model transport capacity, in an army where most infantry has to have 10 models in a unit in order to be able to take special/heavy weapons. Don't take me wrong, I love having my razorback for my defensive tac squad, but it's hardly the sort of vehicle one would want to have as the mainstay of one's army.

 

Also, the raider is a dedicated transport for terminators.

ah, this is where the wires are crossed... the LR is for the termies, and my tac squads do go in a rhino, but for my sterns (which I normally just have 5 man squads of) I usually go with the "in between" choice of the Razorback, as I usually just use the standard HB razor, then it's really a difference of 5 points... I just wanted to see if the lascannons are worth it in the long run, along with the argument of 70 pts vs 105 - 120 of a predator (I have a habit of playing devil's advocate) :)

[ShinyRhino]

I have one in my collection, painted up all nice and with a rotatable turret:

 

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z43/goalie20/Warhammer%2040K/razor2.jpg

 

Unfortunately, I've only fielded it about 3 times, ever. Here's why:

 

1) The points price tag. The additional points for the LC/TLPG setup is very spendy. Costs about as much as an entire Rhino! I can buy far more useful units/upgrades for my current army lists with those points, honestly.

 

2) It's not mobile firepower. You can move 6" and fire ONE of the weapons, hold still and fire both, or move 12" and fire nothing. I like mobile armies, so I'm always moving my Rhinos 6-12", which essentially nullifies half of the weapon loadout.

 

3) Thin armor. 11/11/10 is just too easily shaken. One Shaken result from anything S5 or higher will nullify the weapons for a full turn. I won't bother talking about destroying it outright. A free tactical squad Heavy Bolter can put the kiboshon the Stronos-pattern for a turn. :D

 

4) I don't have a unit available to fully utilize it. I run a force that relies on two units of bikes, and two mechanized tactical squads as its troop core. I have one other Rhino built and painted, along with the one pictured above. So, I tend to leave the Razor turret at home, and just field it as a Rhino. I am not a huge fan of forcing myself to combat squad to use the Razor's 6-man capacity, or leaving a full 10-man on foot. I feel that the Stronos wouldprobably be a good transport for a smaller non-tactical unit, like Sternguard or footslogging Vanguard. The 6-man capacity allows you to add an IC to that 5-man unit, which is nice.

 

5) As mentioned, I'm short of transport models right now, so I need the Rhino chassis to field two mech tactical squads, for the previously-mentioned reasons.

 

So, for ME, the Stronos is too static and too easy to kill for my tastes. It's best used against heavy infantry or light armor. Best complimented by static heavy weapons from its purchasing unit. This patternof Razorback is best fielded in numbers. Spam the hell out of it, and it only gets exponentially better. If you only field one, it ends up with a huge "Shoot Me First!" sign over its head, unless you have other, more-pressing threats in the same armor range (which are few).

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I always lose a lot of my point in my wall of text posts, but Gaius what you said is pretty much in direct contridiction to what I tried to point out.

 

AKA, you mention that 1 missile pops it... well that 1 missile has only an 11% chance to do so. Meaning you will average out to 9 missile shots over the course of many games. Similiarly, it takes an average of 6.75 las cannon shots to kill it.

 

As for plasma pistols, it takes 13.5 shots, or in other words you have a 7.5% chance per shot. Meanwhile, the plasma pistol has a 5.6% chance to kill HIMSELF when he takes his 7.5% chance to kill a razorback.

 

So in conclusion, the math doesnt lie. Everyone who plays the game has experience killing rhinos/razors, obviously! BUT, we only really remember signifigant events. Meaning, we remember when they die to a single krak grenade, not when we miss the razor with a pk nob with 4 attacks needing a 6 to hit. Likewise, we may remember missing with our las cannon 4 times in a row, which of course cost us the whole game, but we forget that the las cannon was shooting at that rhino that whole time.

 

 

You can add numbers all day long and divide until your brain explodes. I run a very violent list and I pop expensive tooled up RBs all day. and no i've never missed 4 lascannon shots in a row lol by then the game would be over

 

wanna know how easy it is? I just rolled a d6 I hit on a 3, I just rolled again and rolled a 4. Now if thats a lascannon(10 pts) guess what your dead. and if its a plasma pistol(15 pts) LOL your not goin anywhere or shootin anything.

 

trying to argue like razorbacks are some heavy support armored monster is rediculous. there not worth it plain and simple. they're inefficient and sub par in comparison to a multitude of other combinations and unit options

[Bartali]

For a Lascannon it's more like hit on 3+, pen on 3+, destroy on 5+ for a 15% chance of destroying a Razorback

 

trying to argue like razorbacks are some heavy support armored monster is rediculous. there not worth it plain and simple. they're inefficient and sub par in comparison to a multitude of other combinations and unit options

 

You've kinda missed the point

 

This patternof Razorback is best fielded in numbers. Spam the hell out of it, and it only gets exponentially better. If you only field one, it ends up with a huge "Shoot Me First!" sign over its head, unless you have other, more-pressing threats in the same armor range (which are few).

 

ShinyRhino gets it

[DerekLee688]

The 70pt. price tag really hurts. I've planned on using one with a walking 10-man tac squad and Dread. I'd figure they would all complement each other well for objective holding, center gun line, etc. Tac marines can run to make up for loss of speed.

 

At the price of a MM/HF land speeder it's a tough sell, even for a fun build. They do look cool, a guy on the Hall of honor section converted a modern razorback to have a lascannon and a double barrel plasma guns in the current turret housing.

 

The only reason I think of running one is because I saturate my armies with armor. Vindi(s), pair of typhoons, pair of LS MM/HF, Dread, and combi-pred(s).

[Brother Tancred]

The 70pt. price tag really hurts.

 

Its 75pts. 40 for the razorback and 35 for the upgrade.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

The 70pt. price tag really hurts. I saturate my armies with armor. Vindi(s), pair of typhoons, pair of LS MM/HF, Dread, and combi-pred(s).

As do I. I run a land raider Redeemer, 3 combi preds, and 4 rhinos. leave the razors in the box and take something more meaningful.

 

Bartali, devianID; I dont mean to come off as argumentative or arrogant but the only way I'd field a razorback is if it was a single one amongst other rhinos meant to carry a specialized squad. No way am i going to build a whole army based around razorbacks

[yperihitikos]

When you don't use many razorbacks they can easily be prioritized and taken out. The trick is to use them in lists that include many vehicles regardless their AVs. If you use 5 razorbacks plus other vehicles the other player has to choose between trying to destroy a couple of them or trying to shake as many razorbacks he can. Most players instinctively choose the first. I always use them with predator support and typhoon hard hitting units.

 

The las-plas razorback is one of the best choises in the codex, because it's the most destructive/versatile/point effective option after typhoons. Their main weapon is the 2linked plasma gun and lascannon their secondary sniping weapon which is very usefull in the last turns to reach targets that are far away from your main remaining force.

 

If you take 10man squads the list will probably fail. Marines are there to clean up the enemy and not to jump out of their razorbacks and try to make contact. It is a passive list. 5-6 marines with a power weapon are more than enough to do their part. Power fists are useless as anything strong enough should already have been taken out.

 

Space wolves is the best army to use razorback tactics because you don't get heavy weapons with your troops. Instead, you can get an assault weapon making them very versatile instead of the necessity to remain stationary to shoot the heavy weapon. In addition, the first turns of a game the marines usually stay in their transports until they get in bolter range. Out of bolter range you would risk one squad to enemy fire to shoot one heavy weapon in c:sm. Even if the razorback is destroyed thanks to counter-attack space wolves can still cause some damage.

[Bartali]

The 70pt. price tag really hurts. I saturate my armies with armor. Vindi(s), pair of typhoons, pair of LS MM/HF, Dread, and combi-pred(s).

As do I. I run a land raider Redeemer, 3 combi preds, and 4 rhinos. leave the razors in the box and take something more meaningful.

 

Bartali, devianID; I dont mean to come off as argumentative or arrogant but the only way I'd field a razorback is if it was a single one amongst other rhinos meant to carry a specialized squad. No way am i going to build a whole army based around razorbacks

 

It's a different type of saturation with Razorbacks, and supports lists with an equal threat level across the board.

 

In 1500pts, it would be something like 4/5xLascannon Razorbacks, 3xDakka Preds, 3/4xSpeeders

[angry man]

The 70pt. price tag really hurts.

 

Its 75pts. 40 for the razorback and 35 for the upgrade.

consider: 10 man tact sqd; lascannon, plasmagun, rhino = 225pts

5 man tact sqd; LC/TLPG = 165pts

 

yeah, ok, you're 5 marines short, and the threat can be neutralised. you saturate enough though and you'll find that it works a treat and once in position those marines needn't ever see the outside again. and if they do then you hide behind the wreckage.

 

simples

 

AM

[gettothegone]

Summary: Everything I've been waiting to write all day.

 

 

Agreed 100%.

[Koremu]

This patternof Razorback is best fielded in numbers. Spam the hell out of it, and it only gets exponentially better. If you only field one, it ends up with a huge "Shoot Me First!" sign over its head, unless you have other, more-pressing threats in the same armor range (which are few).

 

ShinyRhino gets it

Shiny Rhino has forgotten the existence of Land Speeders though :)

 

Speeders are the perfect distraction/decoy for a Razorback-heavy list.

[ShinyRhino]

This patternof Razorback is best fielded in numbers. Spam the hell out of it, and it only gets exponentially better. If you only field one, it ends up with a huge "Shoot Me First!" sign over its head, unless you have other, more-pressing threats in the same armor range (which are few).

 

ShinyRhino gets it

Shiny Rhino has forgotten the existence of Land Speeders though ^_^

 

Speeders are the perfect distraction/decoy for a Razorback-heavy list.

 

Yeah, Speeder Squadrons would be a perfect compliment to a Razorback Spam list. Zoom them aruond in your opponent's face blocking his movement and taking potshots, while the Razorbacks throw las and plas downrange. You's probably want to keep the Speeders cheap though, since they're likely going to end up being taken down.

[Jackelope King]

Yeah, in my mind, in a solid Razorback Spam list, you want your speeders to do what your Razorbacks aren't. So if you're paying the big points for Las/Plas Razorbacks en masse, I'm going to buy HF/MM speeders to zoom up and provide yet another threat that the opponent has to deal with before he gets to focus on my Razorbacks. Same principle as using Piranhas as a Tau player: shove melta weaponry in someone's face, then ask them if they want to deal with the melta (which just went all-out) or the railguns. Oh, and laugh malevolently every so often.

[DerekLee688]

The thing is I only own one razorback, so I can't field much less test a razorback heavy list. However, the theory of 4-6 small Grey Hunter squads vs. 2-3 10 man Tac squads in rhinos seems very interesting.

[Backslide]

consider: 10 man tact sqd; lascannon, plasmagun, rhino = 225pts

5 man tact sqd; LC/TLPG = 165pts

 

yeah, ok, you're 5 marines short, and the threat can be neutralised. you saturate enough though and you'll find that it works a treat and once in position those marines needn't ever see the outside again. and if they do then you hide behind the wreckage.

 

simples

 

AM

 

perhaps a better comparision:

 

consider: 10 man tact sqd; lascannon, plasmagun, rhino = 225pts

10 man tact sqd; missile, flamer, LC/TLPG = 245pts

 

gets nasty ammusing if they are grey hunters not tacs

[King Tiger]

I'd still use them with no hesitation, have 2 roaming around together waiting to jump on a recently taken objective with a couple of squads in and I'm happy, especially useful if your playing basic marines, as the razor is making up for not having a special or heavy weapon mounted on something harder to kill than a basic marine armed with the same weapon

[yperihitikos]

Effective razorback lists you can almost only make with the space wolves codex

 

10 man tact sqd; lascannon, plasmagun, rhino = 225pts

 

or

 

5 man tact squad, 1 wolf guard, 2 power fists, mark of the wulfen, flamer, las-plas razorback = 228pts

 

?

[Adam500]

Just to add in my two cents, I'm running these in my Ard Boyz testbed list right now (just two) and I cannot praise them enough.

 

The lascannon shot, while not as accurate since its not twin-linked is still nice, but the real winner here is the TL plasmagun. Good at 24" and GREAT at 12". A friend of mine deepstriked a Trygon right in front of my gun line and this thing was half the reason it died.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, its great for defensive play styles.

[DerekLee688]

Are two fists wise? A PW on one would be better to compensate the loss of bodies.

[Bartali]

Yeah, I don't think it's wise to go overboard on the points for them.

 

In the DA codex I'd take a TLLC Razorback and 5 man squad with Power weapon and flamer for 200pts. That's with the overpriced DA codex, I'm sure the Space Wolves can do it much cheaper :)

[Theis]

C:SW 5 Grey Hunter w/ Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback comes to 150. That's about as cheap as it gets.

[Grey Mage]

I dunno, maybe its because Im a SW player, but I find theyre wonderful for wolf gaurd squads and Plasma-Hunter packs. Why? Because they add up to 3 extra highstrength AP 2 shots, one of wich can pen any armor in the game. I use them to take on elite infantry, monstrous creatures, and light vehicles. It works well for me and my playstyle.

 

Frankly I find if the transport isnt going to survive long you probly should have designed your list better and/or taken drop pods. If they have the extra firepower to take on your razorbacks first turn then theyre ignoring your rhinos/landraiders/whirlwinds/etc or your list doesnt have enough AV in it to saturate the enviroment properly. IE for every 2 rhino style vehicles you should have atleast 1 AV 13+ or 1 AV 12 per AV 11 front armor, with no fewer than 4 vehicles in total at 1000pts.

 

If you cant do it, your better off falling form the sky or walking.