Whirlwind vs Thunderfire cannon

[Meatman]

I did a search but couldn't find anything on this, so...

 

Which one do you prefer using, and why? Which do you think is more cost effective, points wise or cost wise (£30 for a thunderfire cannon? Seriously GW?) And which did you think was easier to assemble?

[minigun762]

I don't have either one (Chaos player) but I will say that I like the Whirlwind better. The added mobility, ability to fire out of LOS and cheaper price (points and $) win it for me. The Thunderfire might have the advantage in raw firepower but the Whirlwind has better AP values and still has the all important "ignore cover" shots.

[Warp Angel]

I don't have either one (Chaos player) but I will say that I like the Whirlwind better. The added mobility, ability to fire out of LOS and cheaper price (points and $) win it for me. The Thunderfire might have the advantage in raw firepower but the Whirlwind has better AP values and still has the all important "ignore cover" shots.

 

I won't leave home without a Thunderfire cannon. The Whirlwind is relatively ineffective against MEQs, and it's 48" range is often not great for a long range support unit. It is, however, mobile and can fire from hiding at the cost of accuracy.

 

The Thunderfire has 4 templates instead of 1 large one which is going to average you well more than one direct hit each time just based on the roll of the deviation die. At the highest strength mode, you wound just about anything on a 2+ and wound monstrous creatures on a 4+ with the possibility of 4 total wounds on any single model you aim at and against multi-model units, you can inflict more wounds than there are models in the squad... a Whirlwind has far lower wound potential. This is before you start playing with the alternate ammo that ingores cover or that creates difficult/dangerous terrain. You also have much better range that makes up for the lack of mobility to a large extent. The techmarine allows you to reinforce a building and makes itself or another unit in your army better in some battlefield situations. The only downside is fragility. The 15 point difference between the two units is minimal and not worth considering most of the time.

[Arkios]

I second all of Warp Angels statements. I almost always have one Thunderfire in games up to 1500 pts, and above that point value I take TWO!

 

Thunderfires have longer (60") range, can deal out more wounds per shot (My current record is 22 gaunts killed in 1 shooting phase from 1 Thunderfire), and can have a higher strength shot then a WW. They can ignore cover, can fire ammo to force difficult terrain checks (great against bikes, as they cant turbo boost if in terrain AND forces Dangerous tests against them; Also decent against AV 14 early game, because of the 1/6 chance to immobilize), and their Techmarines can reinforce terrain to give your army's firebase a 3+ cover save (including the Thunderfire cannon itself).

 

WW can ignore cover like the Thunderfire but with better AP (5 vs 6), can have AP 4, can fire without LOS, can cause pinning, and can move (up to 6") and still fire.

 

IMO, both platforms are fragile, the Thunderfire slightly more so (WW is AV 11 but can hide behind terrain, Thunderfire is AV 10 but has longer range and a 3+ cover save)

 

 

 

Edit: Oh as for price... Points difference between the two is negligible, but the Thunderfire does carry a hefty $/£ price tag.)

As for assembly, the Thunderfire was designed by sadistic slaanishi heritics. If it is your first Thunderfire, you will spend a minimum of 2+ long hours futilely attempting to fit all the pieces together properly before finally saying "feth it" and just deal with / green stuff / paint over the gaps. The WW on the other hand is as simple to assemble as a Rhino.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

both are good vs hordes but dont waste your time vs marines. I'll take a thunderfire every time unless I decide to field 2 WW's but the points could always be better spent. with that being said go with thunderfire 99% of the time

 

I have a question about thunderfire LOS, does it allow you to indirect fire over ruins troops and tanks at all? and if it does do your targets get that 4+ cover save? I never quite picked up on the rules for whirlwinds and thunderfires rarely use them

[Arkios]

Thunderfire requires direct LOS to the target (from both the cannon and the Techmarine gunner). Its normal Ture LOS rules, If you can see it, you can shoot it.

 

And BTW a thunderfire is great against Mech marines. Team it up with a rifle dread, or even a combat tac squad or two with Lascannons or Missile launchers.

Step 1: Blow up the enemy rhino with your anti-transport platform of choice.

Step 2: Laugh as your opponent bunches up all 10 marines within two inches of the wreck (or within the area of the vehicle if it asploded)

Step 3: Fire the Thunderfire cannon at the tactical squad, hitting 5-6 marines with each of the 4 templates, wounding on 2+.

Step 4: ?????????

Step 5 Profit!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

So firing through your own troops gives your target a 4+ save? and you cannot fire over/through friendly vehicles what so ever?

 

im curious I'd like to field one

[Commander Sasha]

Warp Angel says everything I think about the tactical merits of the Cannon over the Whirly, and better than I could! I'd also add a major benefit: the effect on other players morale. watching his face droop as you lay a third, then a fourth template, even if it is the smaller one, really brings home the power of perceived advantage over actual!

 

Bolster ruin from the TM is also very handy, and although the TC is more fragile, deployed well, upstairs on a ruin, it is very hard to assault; commandos/scouts have a bit more work to do, and you stand a reasonavble chance of the unit turning into an IC with 2 powerfist equivalents.

 

Finally, S6Ap5, S5Ap6no cover is better than the Whirlwind, and the tremor hit denies bikes, jetbikes & speeders their fast coversave moves.

[chapter master 454]

TFC all the way. MEQs and hordes fall like flies to it. Ork unit using mek cover save? please repeat what you get while removing half you squad of 30 ork boys please! My faithful cannon 'morvern' has without doubt proven his worth time and time again. Marines get pummeled by him, hordes become nothing more than single men and bikes hate the tremor! So far i have also dueled 3 other TFCs in my career with a 3-0 win/loss against them all (idiots used full strength for my 3+ cover to negate. Negate cover shells win!). It is a 'single salvo' weapon however, often alot of players will target it to take it out of business to ensure the damage cannot sustain (had Morvern once firing til turn 4, each shot was crippling the enemy unit it targetted). Just wait until you see terminators fall to it, if you can land blasts like Morvern does (3 out of 4 hit, 1 scatters mildly) you can put in 10 plus wounds with one salvo and laugh as wound saturation kicks in (10 equals roughly 1 and four sixths of dead terminators and heres the kick, it has a chance of hitting the heavy weapons due to wound allocation!).

 

Whirlwind however I will grant has use, has greater AP and makes for ideal eldar pathfinder killers (who don't have the numbers to make it worth the TFCs time). The fact it can also fire from behind stuff is another boon that will often see it do more. And 15 points is alot, we're talking a power weapon/3 melta bombs/dread assault cannon worth of points there, that makes a big difference. I swear by both the heavy support choices of Crowd control for they both do the same thing, however one has more burst damage than the other while the other can be sustained longer (the extra range hardly matters, you'll normally get blitzed by some something so the TFC is all about getting the first punch in)

[Brother Captain Josef]

Thunderfire requires direct LOS to the target (from both the cannon and the Techmarine gunner). Its normal Ture LOS rules, If you can see it, you can shoot it.

 

And BTW a thunderfire is great against Mech marines. Team it up with a rifle dread, or even a combat tac squad or two with Lascannons or Missile launchers.

Step 1: Blow up the enemy rhino with your anti-transport platform of choice.

Step 2: Laugh as your opponent bunches up all 10 marines within two inches of the wreck (or within the area of the vehicle if it asploded)

Step 3: Fire the Thunderfire cannon at the tactical squad, hitting 5-6 marines with each of the 4 templates, wounding on 2+.

Step 4: ?????????

Step 5 Profit!

 

An awesome tactic! Last time I did that I wiped out a full tac squad, it was epic!

[ShinyRhino]

So firing through your own troops gives your target a 4+ save? and you cannot fire over/through friendly vehicles what so ever?

 

im curious I'd like to field one

 

That is correct. Firing through your own units will grant the target a 4+ cover save. Of course, the Thunderfire has rounds that can ignore cover saves.

 

I don't have my Codex with me, so I can't remember if this is addressed in the entry, but can you fire different shells as part of the 4-shot volley? For example, throw three normal shots, and one Tremor shot in a single phase, or mustyou fire the same ammo for all four shots?

[minigun762]

Shinyrhino: You know I thought it would be just 1 type of shot but reading the rules its not as clear. It says "each TFC shell can be fused" and to "declare which type of fusing" but it doesn't say only 1 type of fusing may be used.

[Arkios]

Well in regard to shell fussing, being that the Thunderfire entry gives 3 different weapon PROFILE options to choose from (each of which is independently "Heavy 4"), all 4 shots have to be the same fusing. In other words, it is just like a Cyclone or Typhoon missile launcher where you have to choose either a Frag profile or Krak profile, and fire both shots of the same missile.

[ShinyRhino]

Well in regard to shell fussing, being that the Thunderfire entry gives 3 different weapon PROFILE options to choose from (each of which is independently "Heavy 4"), all 4 shots have to be the same fusing. In other words, it is just like a Cyclone or Typhoon missile launcher where you have to choose either a Frag profile or Krak profile, and fire both shots of the same missile.

 

Good catch!

[GreatEscape_13]

I'll put in a vote for the whirlwind here. Nice and cheap at 85 points. Does reasonable damage, and has only reasonable threat--most people think of them as not so dangerous.

 

Thunderfire cannons, because of their spectacular destructive moments, tend to be fire magnets. And it doesn't take much to knock one out, thanks the the artillery rules and the way the unit is composed. If that's good for you, then go with it.

 

I just find the ubiquitous whirlwind to be plenty useful even against MEQs. Sure, it doesn't annihilate a unit with a round of shooting, but it does good steady reliable enough damage over the course of the battle to justify its points cost to me.

 

Cheers.

[TimHazSpaceMarines]

Warp Angel says everything I think about the tactical merits of the Cannon over the Whirly, and better than I could! I'd also add a major benefit: the effect on other players morale. watching his face droop as you lay a third, then a fourth template, even if it is the smaller one, really brings home the power of perceived advantage over actual!

 

Bolster ruin from the TM is also very handy, and although the TC is more fragile, deployed well, upstairs on a ruin, it is very hard to assault; commandos/scouts have a bit more work to do, and you stand a reasonavble chance of the unit turning into an IC with 2 powerfist equivalents.

 

Finally, S6Ap5, S5Ap6no cover is better than the Whirlwind, and the tremor hit denies bikes, jetbikes & speeders their fast coversave moves.

Especialy if you have two of em

[Trozen]

Thunderfire requires direct LOS to the target (from both the cannon and the Techmarine gunner). Its normal Ture LOS rules, If you can see it, you can shoot it.

 

And BTW a thunderfire is great against Mech marines. Team it up with a rifle dread, or even a combat tac squad or two with Lascannons or Missile launchers.

Step 1: Blow up the enemy rhino with your anti-transport platform of choice.

Step 2: Laugh as your opponent bunches up all 10 marines within two inches of the wreck (or within the area of the vehicle if it asploded)

Step 3: Fire the Thunderfire cannon at the tactical squad, hitting 5-6 marines with each of the 4 templates, wounding on 2+.

Step 4: ?????????

Step 5 Profit!

 

This is my tactic against mech armies, except I am using Typhoons to crack the eggs.

Actually, last weekend I didn't even need to pop the tank, killed all 8ish Fire Dragons after they got out and melted my Ironclad. Anti-cover shot for the win! (they were mostly were behind the wreck)

Plus, against orks it is essentially all I shoot.

[chapter master 454]

Warp Angel says everything I think about the tactical merits of the Cannon over the Whirly, and better than I could! I'd also add a major benefit: the effect on other players morale. watching his face droop as you lay a third, then a fourth template, even if it is the smaller one, really brings home the power of perceived advantage over actual!

 

Bolster ruin from the TM is also very handy, and although the TC is more fragile, deployed well, upstairs on a ruin, it is very hard to assault; commandos/scouts have a bit more work to do, and you stand a reasonavble chance of the unit turning into an IC with 2 powerfist equivalents.

 

Finally, S6Ap5, S5Ap6no cover is better than the Whirlwind, and the tremor hit denies bikes, jetbikes & speeders their fast coversave moves.

Especialy if you have two of em

 

or you have a land raider who can roll ones like no other for DT tests...grumble (3 out of 3 games it's happened, kid you not)

[TimHazSpaceMarines]

dude that sucks

[Gearhead]

I use a whirlwind; "Rynn's Rain" has served me well for quite some time. One of the things I did with it was against a mechguard player, I used the barrage rules to get S5 hits on his side armor. Everything else had failed to get that Chimy popped, and the Rain blew it up. I'd have prefferred to shoot at at his troops (since that's what it's for), but that chimy had to popped right then. Really, I use it as a much cheaper Heavy Bolter Dev squad with more versitility (cover Rounds) and the ability to fire indirectly.

 

I considered the thunderfire (and looking in my case, I see I have room for one, woohoo!), but after watching someone try to assemble one, I decided to pass on that for a bit.

[pryor]

QUOTE (Commander Sasha @ Feb 21 2010, 10:08 AM)

Bolster ruin from the TM is also very handy, and although the TC is more fragile

Just quickly on this, if you bolster the ruin that the TM & TC are in do both benefit from the +1 to the cover save and, on that line of thinking, any vehicle (say a Dreadnought for example) deployed within the ruin)?

I mean if the artillery piece or vehicle receives a cover save from the ruin wouldn't that mean it would also get the bonus from the Bolster defences rule?

[angry man]

here comes mr controversial.

 

in answer to the original question, i would place the TFC glass hammer higher than the whirlwind poo hammer -- ultimately though they are both poor choices to spend your points on and fill up your HS slots with

 

the whirlwind

so you have 2 options - fire direct or fire indirect

--fire direct and your glorified rhino chassis gets blown to wotsits by anything S7 or more. if it fires, odds are youre scattering 3-4 inches and catching one or two enemy models. unless your opponent is playing mass horde, in which case its not a huge loss

--fire indirect and youre more than likely scattering 7-8 inches and missing your target completely and in danget of hitting yourself

against most opponents just wont do anything - most things are meched up and if you destroy the mech first, then the above still holds true

 

the thunderfire cannon

yay, this thing can actually put out some hurt. until it gets destroyed that is. and it will get destroyed, no matter how much cover you hide yourself in. with armour 10 it can be glanced by most weapons in the game. sure you can get a 3+ or even a 2+ cover save if youre lucky, but how many of those do you think you can pass? with the average cover 4+, and bolstered its 3+ you only need to fail one of these and the gun is gone. 100pts well sspent?? not in my book.

 

a dakka pred may not put out as much damage as the TFC or be able to hide like the whirlwind, but its damn sure going to hit something and be able to withstand some retaliation - and all this for 15 points less that the TFC?? yes please!

 

AM

[minigun762]

a dakka pred may not put out as much damage as the TFC or be able to hide like the whirlwind, but its damn sure going to hit something and be able to withstand some retaliation - and all this for 15 points less that the TFC?? yes please!

 

AM

 

I think the lack of cover-ignoring fire is the drawback to the Dakka Predator compared to the other two. It will do just fine against exposed infantry but once you bury those guys in cover, your killing drops drastically.

 

Not saying its not a good choice but that you'd have to find a workaround for this issue.

[Gaz1858]

Not sure if i missed anyone post this earlier but doesnt the WW cause pinning with a -1 modifier that the TF does not? Thats well worth remembering as causing marines to be pinned on a 2d6 roll of more than seven (8 with a sgt) can be very nice!

 

Personally i prefer the WW as the TF is too fragile, AV10 with only a glance needed to destroy it!? The WW may be only 1 AV better but it can hide behind another tank or large building and still manage to get some shots off.

 

Mainly its just the fragility of the TF that puts me off.

[Commander Sasha]

QUOTE (Commander Sasha @ Feb 21 2010, 10:08 AM)

Bolster ruin from the TM is also very handy, and although the TC is more fragile

Just quickly on this, if you bolster the ruin that the TM & TC are in do both benefit from the +1 to the cover save and, on that line of thinking, any vehicle (say a Dreadnought for example) deployed within the ruin)?

I mean if the artillery piece or vehicle receives a cover save from the ruin wouldn't that mean it would also get the bonus from the Bolster defences rule?

I usually use the Bolster Ruin rule for a different ruin, such as an objective&squad one; however if you do bolster the ruin with the Cannon in (which is only ONE unit until the gun itself is destroyed), the coversave is improved.

Rolling for hit allocation means that the 1-4s that hit the gun will be 'obscured', and need 50% LoS blocking, the 5&6s hitting the Tech are 'cover', but both are dependant on the type of cover, so can be improved.

 

(Allocation: Artillery p55),(Vehicles: Obscured targets p62 para6)