Dreadnaught's gaining usefulness?

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Ok, to start this, I'd like to say that I am basing this on the small sample of 3 battles and do not for one minute think that all "math-hammer" is useless but i am a believer that statistics and probabilities do not work for the individual rather, they work for the populace as a whole. I am sure those of us who have only ever had our fingers burned by a Toaster and detest them forever more for such reasons, and this I accept.

 

However, I am wondering if anyone else having used a dread of ours lately and found that opponents would rather leave it be than shoot at it? Having used a Dread in all of my 3 recent battles, mainly as a core for what I wanted it to do for the army with redundant back up troops load outs should this not work for me, I have only suffered 1 crazed and 1 fire frenzy rolls in 16 turns, both of which have actually harmed my opponent in each incident.

 

In all 3 battles, I have only lost my Dread as early as turn 4, with it taking a great deal of my opponents force in the meantime. I am having more issue with how to load my troops each time, based mainly on not knowing what my opponent will/is likely to take (against SM, expected troops heavy and ended up facing way too many tanks, same with my first IG battle and when prepped for more tanks, he changed up and threw more troops at me). Each time however, I have found that whatever loadout I take for my Dread, they don't want to touch it till it has taken a significant chunk of their force. Even with a Plasma Cannon (decided I must to have balls of steel according store staff) to face the smurfs, they did not even fire at it till after it had taken out 3 rhinos, a Vindi and a land speeder and even then, only failed to take it down but just stop it moving.

 

I am wondering if it's bad reputation and our moaning is making opponents look at our dreads in a light where it could do them more good to leave it on the field than to take it out, this then plays back into our hands should it end up "playing nice" with it's friends for a change. I also don't doubt that someone will come back and say "one day, it'll bite you and you won't sit down for a week" but from this small sample size, I would be keen to continue to take one in future.

 

To all power gamers; I'm sure that in a tourny, you wouldn't wish to take one and accept this is probably a risk you would be unwilling to take but from a point of view of someone learning about their troops, wishingto experiment as to how bad things are, I would ask that it be taken on it's merits that in one off battles, it's a strong arguement.

[the jeske]

To all power gamers; I'm sure that in a tourny, you wouldn't wish to take one and accept this is probably a risk you would be unwilling to take but from a point of view of someone learning about their troops, wishingto experiment as to how bad things are, I would ask that it be taken on it's merits that in one off battles, it's a strong arguement.

there is 3 things you can learn from extensive dread testing . A units you cant control are bad , specially if they try to get in to hth B single shot hvy weapons in 5th ed dont work . C a dread without a drop pod is a very expensive way to get a non scoring autocanon/lascanons/plasma canons and an oblits gives almost all those weapons [and can even change between them] .

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Thanks Jeske, for totly missing the point of this topic...

 

My point is that Oblits are known as being a good unit so attract a logic fire. As do, in my experience, DPs, Defilers, Berzerkers and DSing Termies. If you can find a unit that has a bad reputation yet can also be a tankbuster in HtH, can make a mess of stuff from afar and at the same time, will not attract fire and is not a Crazy Chaos Dread, could you inform me of it?

[Zhukov]

With all respect, but if your enemies let your Dread destroy large parts of their armies then you clearly play different oponents then I do, or maybe I just suck of course.

 

Ok, to start this, I'd like to say that I am basing this on the small sample of 3 battles and do not for one minute think that all "math-hammer" is useless but i am a believer that statistics and probabilities do not work for the individual rather, they work for the populace as a whole

I have only suffered 1 crazed and 1 fire frenzy rolls in 16 turns, both of which have actually harmed my opponent in each incident.

Without mathhammer and with being extremely lucky, one might get wrong impressions about the effectiveness of a unit...

 

Really if your main argument why Dreads can work, depends on your oponent being a bad player then you lost me. But maybe I'm missing the point of the thread too.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I think you have, but not in the same way as Jeske...

 

I'm not saying they are bad players, but from my small sample of experience in 5th ed and in speaking to other players, even those I have faced in this sample, I can tell you that people within my area do not seem as interested in taking out something which they feel could turn to assist them as the game continues. It has been the case within my games that the opponent looks at what it sees as more primary concerns (DPs, Defilers, Termies, Oblits, Vindis, LRs etc) and decide that they are the more primary units to take out, therefore the Dread goes unchecked for large parts of the game. Especially when obviously I have posted these units as far away from the Dread as possible, also realising it is a concern.

 

Within the tactics I have faced, this has led to my opponents turning trail from my dread, heading for LRs, DPs or Oblits and have left their side armour of tanks etc open to all manner of gunfire from my crazed bulk of metal.

 

From this, I am proposing that maybe the Dreads bad press is going ahead of it and is allowing it to run free where necessary and possible and is only brought in check either when everything the opponent wanted to wipe out is toast or when it realises it's doing much more than it thought it would and turns all and any fire upon it.

 

Does this make any more sense yet Zhukov? Sorry if I am taking 1,000,000 words to sum it up but I am also full of a cold.

[minigun762]

From this, I am proposing that maybe the Dreads bad press is going ahead of it and is allowing it to run free where necessary and possible and is only brought in check either when everything the opponent wanted to wipe out is toast or when it realises it's doing much more than it thought it would and turns all and any fire upon it.

 

If I understand your point, what it sounds like you are saying is that the percieved low priority level of the Dread allows it to be ignored and in ignoring it they open themselves up for a potential counter attack by that Dread.

 

If so, I would say that I agree with that to a degree. Every army has units that are high priority vs low priority. In Warp Angel's Killhammer theory, we could assign all sorts of different values to it but the basic idea remains the same. You have a limited amount of resources and need to use them to full effect on the most important targets. What is most important changes throughout the game so you have to keep adjusting your focus. For the most part, a Chaos Dread will almost always rank low on that list and so it could go the entire game without being the main focus. To capitalize on that, you must make the Dread as useful as possible without drawing attention to itself and the only way that can work (in my eyes) is taking a 2x DCCW Dread. In no other of the "safe" configurations can a single Dreadnought present a low priority while being an actual threat as it can with 2 DCCW.

 

Of course the gamble you are making is that when you want to make your move with the Dread, it doesn't go crazy on you. <_<

[the jeske]

If you can find a unit that has a bad reputation yet can also be a tankbuster in HtH, can make a mess of stuff from afar and at the same time, will not attract fire and is not a Crazy Chaos Dread, could you inform me of it?

ok lets say we try a dread build. and we even go the anti tank way.

 

2DPs

3 troops[lets say oblits have more weapons so we will help the dreads by picking a more shoty camper units . something like an auto canon/plasm csm unit or NM blast master one ]

2 dreads

2 defilers[we cut termicid , and go agresive with the squads , defilers will more offten then not charge , because in hth they are safer and they do more dmg there] .

 

this is the semi chaos zilla build[and as you may notice it is unplayable at 1500pts] . not let us look at its bad sides. defilers and DP going in to hth were all well and nice , before codex sw/nids and BA when squads were smaller and easier to wipe out or they were tacticals. but once the transports are poped a combination of high str attacks should do nice against most non MC units in the game.

they also have problems with catching stuff like skimers and even normal transports are not easy to hit when they move 12". this means that csm/pms are doing double shifts on anti tank and the dreads that we wook instead of the oblits have to work . Only they dont . First of all they cant do anti tank , because they are uncontrolable . this is not just a math thing , this is tactic and planing thing. the game for one to win requiers a player to do certain stuff [for chaos thats poping enemy transports as soon as possible] . this is not a case I may or may not do it , if you dont and play against a competant opponent with a good list you lose . this is plain and simple . as a player you never know if a dread goes crazy or not [and the fact that it may open fire on your own units is really not that important] , this means each turn you must place/move a second unit to support the dreads job [in case it goes crazy] this is on top of the normal 2+1 rule and makes the game play of an army with a dread ineffective [or based on luck , but if you do that one may as well play with chaos spawns] . then there is a second most important thing [or as some would say the first] in w40k gaming , the spaming of units . a single dread with a single heavy weapon in an edition of +4 cover everywhere , even if it does not go crazy isnt very effective [while it still stops being anti tank or anti troop support by simply being stuned/shaken] , but two dreads rise the chance of going crazy and doubling the number of units needed to support dreads. so a single dread is not effective enough and two just break up the game play of a chaos army .

 

you say that people will ingore the dread , because it is so bad [or they think it is bad] what gives it more chance to do something [when it doesnt go crazy] . well I see it this way , if your opponent sees that your only long range anti tank is unrealiable av12 model he is going to destroy/stun/shake it really fast . if it also means that even with your los blocking and giving cover the dread goes crazy [it doesnt even have to kill your stuff] its double win for him . dread goes crazy he has one whole turn to shot more at your rhinos , DPs etc

 

, therefore the Dread goes unchecked for large parts of the game.

and even if it doesnt go crazy and doesnt get shaken or stuned , the chance that it is going to do something in hth [with 12" treat range]or in shoting , means its free to do nothing. unless I dont know your make an AC spam list and run 3 csm with AC , 2 dreads with AC and 2x6 havocks with 3 AC each.

the chaos dread is not a tank buster because it cant land withing 6-12" of an enemy tank in a drop pod with a MM or melta guns and it aint a good[or even medicor] hth unit with the number of attacks and the speed it has.

 

 

 

also may I say that destroying 3 rhinos a vindicator and a land speeder with a str 7 scatering blast weapon is a big achivement , the chance of [and as I said many times ,before am not a math person] are I think really slim. second

[Corpse.]

Avoiding other posts and keeping to personal experience.

 

I use two types of chaos dreadnoughts. Melee dreads... And Missile Launcher+Melee dreads (frag my own guys if he does that).

 

Most of the games I use them in is:

 

-100 pt filler models for when I don't feel like modifying my list majorly.

-Chaos zilla including 3 dreads+3 defilers+1 Prince+Abbadon+Greater Daemon. (I was asked not to use this list much in the next few months)

-Khorne related, melee oriented dreads for this, sometimes I use all three just for the fluffy feel of having (SOMETHING) rage and charge at the enemy.

-Nurgle list with missile launcher dread or two, namely the list I use all the types of vehicles I can, using no more than one of the same type/variant (to keep with a rotting/salvaged theme)

 

I understand what they tend to do from time to time. I never send them to do a task the unit near/ahead of them isn't already doing well. They bolster things and try to make things go faster. Sometimes they get to charge a unit that cannot defend itself in melee, like gaunts/guardsmen/orks without a klaw(like burnaboyz). And I leave him to finish the unit off, or eventually make them run and consolodate after them remaining within 6" when possible to prevent regrouping. (Standard tactics)

 

I find them useful. I wouldn't put them in a overly mecha list with no tanks, I would often take something to support a rhino list rather then use a dread. But if there is a place for one, I might put one in. Currently, there is nothing superb for the 100 point slot other then the greater daemon, and sometimes I rather have my powerfists then have him. So the dread has a spot in that situation.

 

I am the sort of player that would take 1500 pts to fight 2000 point lists. So 100-300 points of 'obscurity' or 'gamble' doesn't bug me.

[chillin]

I've tried several time to make dreads wk b/c I have 2 converted dread models that I like. They have proven frustrating even in friendly game that I don't care if I win or lose and against less experienced opponents that I knew I could beat no matter what.

A unit that does A when you need it to do B, and B when you need it to do A, is just frustrating.

If your dread has only been gone crazy 2 out of 16 times (12.5%), that IS an anomaly, your dread WILL be out of your control 33 out of 100 times (33%). That those two times have both been harmful to your opponent, is also an anomaly. Most of the time when it goes crazy, it will shoot when you need it to charge. Charge when it can't reach anything, and stand there in the middle of the board waiting to get blow up, or charge the wrong unit b/c it's 1" closer then the unit youy needed it to charge.

I understand what you are saying about a dread being a low priority target, but if your opponents allowed it to "take out a large deal of their force" before doing anything about it, I have to wonder about the skill/experience level of those you are playing (I certainly don't mean any offense to anyone that you have played, but it's not like a dread is a swarmlord or a couple of WL's or something).

 

I'm not trying to poo poo your success with the dread, as long as it keeps working for you and you keep having fun with it , keep using it.

Is a dread now a "good" unit b/c our opponents think it's so bad that they will ignor it and let it do large damage to their army ?

No, ... 1-even semi-good players will not let that happen. 2- your luck will swing around to what probability dictates it will be.

 

Interesting topic/discussion though :lol:

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Thanks Corpse and Chillin, this was more the type of discussion I was hoping for. I apologise to others for making less sense in my first couple of posts if it wasn't clear.

 

I accept that people will probably go back to the "mathhammer" and probabilities of stuff but as I think i've discussed on here before, it is one of those situations where the chances of rolling 1s, 6s and anything in between are also based upon what is rolled in between having to make rolls for the "crazed" roll for the Dread as well and I feel that you cannot take a roll for one thing as a stand alone thing but include it within the number of dice you have to roll in between having to take that roll in to consideration as well. In one game, the number of 1s and 6s I threw compared to other games were obscure and I saw that at that point, my Dread was a safer bet based on the probability of continuing down the same path. Admittedly, some of those 1s also took out 2 of my plasma pistoled Zerkers. I also accept that the chances of this continuing over a bigger sample size are probably slim.

 

Jeske, in response to your point on how much was taken out by my plasma cannon, I agree it was very unlikely. On two of those shots, I was aiming for a squad of Devastators (I think they are called; loyalist version of Havocs) and with the scatter, it made a mess of side and rear armours that just happened to be lucky.

 

I also feel that yes, when I start to play a better calibre of opponent, this may not go in my favour so much and that they may see it for what it could be and wipe it out at the first opportunity or at the first sign that it is doing them more harm than good...

 

Any other views guys and girls? Does anyone else think it's possible for a units bad press to make it more useful due to dropping down the list of "concerns" for an opponent? Not just Chaos Dreads, has anyone seen this happen to any other unit? Or possibly the reverse, where something we would consider a power unit within our codex becomes ineffective due to being a priority target?

[Rain]

I accept that people will probably go back to the "mathhammer" and probabilities of stuff but as I think i've discussed on here before, it is one of those situations where the chances of rolling 1s, 6s and anything in between are also based upon what is rolled in between having to make rolls for the "crazed" roll for the Dread as well and I feel that you cannot take a roll for one thing as a stand alone thing but include it within the number of dice you have to roll in between having to take that roll in to consideration as well.

 

Umm no, absolutely wrong, the amount of total dice you roll in a game has no bearing on your chances of rolling a frenzy result each individual turn, dice rolls are independent probability events. You do not "spend" your 1's by rolling them when firing bolters, your chance of rolling a 1 after rolling fifty 1's before it is still 1/6. Also the argument that opponents are more likely to ignore dreads is flawed because the only reason they ignore them (relative to say oblits) is that they are not very useful in their current incarnation.

 

It's like arguing that you are more likely to be ignored on a real battlefield if you wield a can of pringles instead of a rifle, sure it's true but that doesn't make it a good idea. Seriously, sorry but your arguement is based on very flawed logic, yes you can win with a dread, but then you could probably win with a list that's just 150 points under, that does not in any way make it a good idea. If you however find dreads just fun for whatever reason, then go ahead, but fun is subjective so what exactly are you asking about?

[the jeske]

I also feel that yes, when I start to play a better calibre of opponent, this may not go in my favour so much and that they may see it for what it could be and wipe it out at the first opportunity or at the first sign that it is doing them more harm than good...

what makes it even worse then lets say gift of chaos , where only your opponent has to do something stupid[or get realy unlucky on assault move rolls] , because with a dread your not only hope that your opponent is going to ingore it when it is the only long range fire support you have , but you also have to hope it will work when you need it too. that just makes no sense , because either you play with 200pts less then your opponent[dread does nothing] or when you really unlucky it does nothing and you have to use other units to the job the dread is suppose to do [while at the same time playing with 200 pts less then your opponent] . It wont work on a good player , it wont even work on a bad player , but with a good list. It may work on someone who doesnt know how to play and has a bad list[no way to deal with walkers and/or tanks] , but A why would someone want to play against something like that and B in the age of interent how offten do you play against people with not good build list?

 

-Chaos zilla including 3 dreads+3 defilers+1 Prince+Abbadon+Greater Daemon. (I was asked not to use this list much in the next few months)

how do you play obejctive games with this list ? or if its 2250/2500 how do you counter IG with this?

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Thanks for your post Rain, and this may have got off topic due to my thoughts on the "gamble" of numbers coming up consecutively. I see this as no different than a roulette wheel kicking out the same number time after time, and admittedly there are more options for it to give you but the base probability is the same. We have all done the math of getting X number of wounds from Y number of bolter shots, and ended up getting less or more, somewhere along the line, I do feel that these things equal out based on the chances of rolling a 1, then a 1 again (or any number) are 1/36 rather than just 1/6 followed by the 1/6 chance again. I see it as the collective probabilities than the individual ones. Also, I would like to ask your opinions on whether there is any unit, most notably a Chaos one, but it could also be other races, that have a bad reputation but have ended up winning you the day, or at least going down screaming.

 

Jeske, once again, I feel that you are only looking at this from a power gamers perspective and I have accepted and posted previously that I am not talking of that mindset. In this age of the internet, you are almost assuming that everyone has come on to this, or other forums to help build their lists, but even in that mindset, we still get varying opinions on each and every build. I would ask that you try to think outside of your usual box and ask where other people are coming from. Not everyone thinks the same as you, it is clear at this point that I do not, and I feel that I am not alone, and I also accept that there are more than their fair share of power gamers, focused on only a winning formula to get the most number of wins possible on a day/tournament/career (for want of a better word). I have already stated that I do see that against some other builds, and more experienced opponents at 5th ed, that this may not work, but as I did with Rain, I would ask you to focus on the priority topic of looking for a unit that is doing a lot better for people than reputations may suggest. I feel that this may be something you can either not answer or are unable to due to playing a certain way 99 times out of 100, but if you have something to add, then please feel free to do so.

[David the Despoiler]

I've run my converted Chaos Dread (I love him to bits) for about 7 games and in each one, he's done well. Hell, in one game he pulled a draw for me out of his ass. He had a heavy flamer on his DCCW and a lascannon. He lost the lascannon after instant killing a Crisis Suit to massive glancing from outflanking Kroot (you try taking 36 str 4 shots on armor 10) and got immobilized. Luckily, he was just close enough to an objective to contest it. The silly Kroot decided to instead run up to the other objective right in front of the dread. That turn the dread rolled a Fire Frenzy and fired its heavy flamer twice into their compact ranks, killing almost two thirds of them and breaking them, thus leaving that one objective uncontested.

 

Another game it got wiped out by concentrated Guardsmen weapon teams (lascannons/bring it down). The thing is, in a 1000 point list environment, a Dreadnought is one of the bigger sources of heavy fire power (since I field a unit of zerkers, plague marines and a Lord with a d/w at 1000) that's also rather cost effective.

 

Yeah, sure, it can go insane, but if you carefully read the Fire Frenzy rule and the fact that all weapons on a dread are actually hull mounted with a 45 degree arc of sight... Most of the time, unless something of yours is actually in front of him, he won't be shooting at it, as the rules quite clearly say... "Fire at the closest visible unit twice."

[Seregon]

Actually, it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit. It doesn't have to be in it's direct line of sight, as it'll just turn around and fire everything at whatever is closest no matter if the target is in front or in back of it. So if you have him at the very front of the army, you'll be presenting a very tasty rear armour for your opponent the next turn if you're too close.

[KingDeath]

Actually, it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit. It doesn't have to be in it's direct line of sight, as it'll just turn around and fire everything at whatever is closest no matter if the target is in front or in back of it. So if you have him at the very front of the army, you'll be presenting a very tasty rear armour for your opponent the next turn if you're too close.

 

For that to be true the dread would need to have an 360 degree arc of sight, like infantry. Afaik it hasnt. Therefore it doesnt have to shoot the closest target, but only the closest visible target which can be half a table away, depending on in which direction the dread is facing.

[chillin]

I do feel that these things equal out based on the chances of rolling a 1, then a 1 again (or any number) are 1/36 rather than just 1/6 followed by the 1/6 chance again. I see it as the collective probabilities than the individual ones.

 

Also, I would like to ask your opinions on whether there is any unit, , that have a bad reputation but have ended up winning you the day, or at least going down screaming.

 

No, chances of rolloing a 1 and then a 1 again are 1/6 each time. Dice have no memory (as my finite math Prof used to say).

You had better stay out of Vagas, they invented craps and roulet for ppl who think like that :) :(

 

As for units w/ bad rep...my "base" unit is csm w/ melta/flamer, PF champ, IoCG, I have been told many times on here that that unit isn't good, b/c 1 melta not enough to make sure armor is destroyed, flamer not good vs meq's, whatever other reasons, but that unit performs

well for me as a jack of all trades unit in game, after game, after game.

I also like the pred w/ TL'ed LC and HB's, and people tell me that that is a bad combo, the AC & LC's combo is better at killing tanks. And that's true, but how useful is it when you need to thin out a swarm of GS's. Again I like the jack of all trades aspect of it, the TL'ed LC is pretty good at damaging tanks and the HB's make it a threat vs hoard.

 

But in both those examples they wk b/c I have a jack of all trades army build that wks pretty well for me, I'm not relying on "getting lucky" withh my dice rolls or the flawed theory that if I roll a bunch of 1's & 6's while firing my bolters that I'm less likely to roll a 1 or 6 when rolling for gone crazy.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Thanks Chillin, it is interesting that the likes of you do get by well with certain "builds" within units or tanks and yet others on here do constantly berate them. I personally do work on the premise of 2 Meltas, 2 Flamers or even 2 Plasmas and again, the plasmas work well for me even though I'm told that Plasma isn't the most reliable gun in the game in the world.

 

I do accept what your saying regarding dice having no memory, but I also base my gaming (and my betting) on the law of averages. With the unlikely yet possible outcome of rolling 20 x 1's, I also work on the premise that anything is possible. Even though dice games are based on unpredictability, I try and take each dice roll as a sequence of events and not a singular event. Maybe this is my flawed thinking, but as I stated near the start of this thread, we all know that stats apply for the larger populace but yet we all know of that person or people within the outlying 5% or such that puts them at the "unlikely" end of probabilities for things (car accidents at Xmph, family medical histories of contracting or developing an illness etc) and from this aspect, that is why I think this way.

 

Besides, craps is a mugs game... :P :D :D

 

But thanks for having your input on the "jack of all trades" builds, it is an interesting one. Has anyone had anything else show remarkable success that the general opinion is against this? Maybe with bikes, raptors, even spawn?

[Warp Angel]

From this, I am proposing that maybe the Dreads bad press is going ahead of it and is allowing it to run free where necessary and possible and is only brought in check either when everything the opponent wanted to wipe out is toast or when it realises it's doing much more than it thought it would and turns all and any fire upon it.

 

If I understand your point, what it sounds like you are saying is that the percieved low priority level of the Dread allows it to be ignored and in ignoring it they open themselves up for a potential counter attack by that Dread.

 

If so, I would say that I agree with that to a degree. Every army has units that are high priority vs low priority. In Warp Angel's Killhammer theory, we could assign all sorts of different values to it but the basic idea remains the same. You have a limited amount of resources and need to use them to full effect on the most important targets. What is most important changes throughout the game so you have to keep adjusting your focus. For the most part, a Chaos Dread will almost always rank low on that list and so it could go the entire game without being the main focus. To capitalize on that, you must make the Dread as useful as possible without drawing attention to itself and the only way that can work (in my eyes) is taking a 2x DCCW Dread. In no other of the "safe" configurations can a single Dreadnought present a low priority while being an actual threat as it can with 2 DCCW.

 

Of course the gamble you are making is that when you want to make your move with the Dread, it doesn't go crazy on you. :huh:

 

I've got to agree with the 2xDCCW being the only reasonable Chaos dread configuration to take. It poses the least danger to you, while being the most effective possible configuration in hand to hand - which is where it has no negatives other than those inherent in all dreadnaughts.

 

What minigun isn't quite clear on though is that Killhammer Theory would have you look for a similarly costed unit with greater effectiveness overall. In order for a unit to deserve a place in your army, it needs to be a threat to your opponent and present them with something that they MUST deal with or risk victory. It has to have good killing potential, or be a massive tarpit/firemagnet, or better yet - both to be included in your list or have tremendous situational value to be considered.

 

A Chaos Dreadnaught has moderate to low K potential - When you compare it's firepower to a chaos marine squad, it's comparable or lower, depending on the squad's loadout and range, and for many of the weapon loadouts (like the 2x DCCW) it needs a turn or two to get to most effective range. The combination of relatively low firepower and relatively slow closure to optimum kill envelope hurts it.

 

Defensively, dreads are interesting - they're flat out immune to most weaponry, but very vulnerable to most heavy weaponry, and while they may spend an entire game without significant damage, a single krak missile can end them. This lands them solidly in the middle defensively.

 

Situationally, they are not very good when evaluated in isolation. They have no transport options (no speed), they have a chance to do something you don't want them to do (lack of control), and they aren't scoring. It would take adding something to your army that nothing else can to provide any situational benefit, and I think that Chaos is full of better units for any role you can put a dreadnaught in.

 

So - Killhammer Formula for evaluating your own units: (K1-K2) + (D1+D2) + S = Your Killhammer Unit Rating (I'm going to give the dread the benefit of the doubt)

 

(Moderate - Low) + (Moderate + Moderate) + None = Low-Moderate Effectiveness

 

Looking at it from a target perspective (what your enemy is going to think about devoting resources to killing it) = (K1-K2) + (D1-D2) + S

 

(Moderate - Low) - (Moderate + Moderate) + None = Target of opportunity - low threat, easy to kill, but nothing you're going to focus effort on unless you can't get to more valuable units.

 

I'm not sure it's particularly useful, to be honest.

[minigun762]

What minigun isn't quite clear on though is that Killhammer Theory would have you look for a similarly costed unit with greater effectiveness overall. In order for a unit to deserve a place in your army, it needs to be a threat to your opponent and present them with something that they MUST deal with or risk victory. It has to have good killing potential, or be a massive tarpit/firemagnet, or better yet - both to be included in your list or have tremendous situational value to be considered.

 

Hey! What that should say is that I was too lazy and tired to put enough effort into my post to make it worthwhile and instead relied upon someone else to come by and show the work I was alluding to. :)

 

I would argue that in the case of the "S" value, you might actually have a negative number there because a canny opponent knows that the Chaos Dread can potentially turn on your own troops or assault something besides your intended target.

[Rain]

I think you are confusing conditional probabilities with combined ones CLS. This is called the gambler's fallacy and is not supported by the "law of averages". Let me explain to hopefully help out, so say you have two dice and decide to roll one after the other. The chance that both will by 1's is indeed p^n or (1/6)^2 = 1/36 HOWEVER if you roll the first die and it is a 1, the chance that the second will be a 1is 1/6 NOT 1/36 because the first die is already a 1, the chance of rolling a 1 on the condition that your first die was a 1 is 1/6, but the chance of rolling two 1's given two rolls is 1/36.

 

The idea that a roulette or die or whatever is "due" is completely fallacious, what you are confusing it with is a probability distribution which is a continuous function that gives the chance of a random variable taking each value. Generally speaking such distributions do "peak" around some mean, with more results within 1 standard deviation of that mean than in any other section of equal length, however if the results are independent (and dice are) scoring once far from the mean does not mean that you will score closer to the mean next time unless you literally do infinite trials in which case your results if plotted will eventually form the probability distribution.

 

Anyway, as for weird builds, this last codex is too boring for me to have tried anything, but in the last codex I did sometimes run a ridiculous chosen unit comprised of all champions with demonic speed, furious charge, spiky bits and power weapons. It was stupidly binary and generally useful only if it charged an expensive enemy HtH unit, once wiping the floor with a large squad of assault terminators led by a libby. I also sometimes used an all autocannon tank hunters havoc squad, which was hilarious against transport rush armies.

[Cale]

To start, let me assert that I'm not a huge fan of Chaos Dreadnoughts. I don't like the bit where they go crazy, and I think they're overpriced for what they do compared to Defilers (exactly the same role) Obliterators (in a similar role) or Terminators (in the same slot). I also don't think that they're absolutely horrible.

 

However, I think the premise of the thread is flawed, in that it will only be relevant if one is playing against bad players. The reason for this is simple: every player who is a good player will make his or her own evaluations independently--if you don't, you're not a good player.

 

Thus, any player who bases his or her decisions regarding an opposing unit on that unit's "reputation" is a bad player. Period.

 

If you count on your opponents being dumb, this might be relevant. Otherwise, you shouldn't even consider it.

[Corpse.]

-Chaos zilla including 3 dreads+3 defilers+1 Prince+Abbadon+Greater Daemon. (I was asked not to use this list much in the next few months)

how do you play obejctive games with this list ? or if its 2250/2500 how do you counter IG with this?

 

Here's the list, I'm pretty sure I shared it up here a whileback and you got a look at it, but here it is again.

 

3 melee dreads+greater daemon = 400 pts

Abbadon+Lash Prince (no wings) = 410 pts

3 melee wep defilers = 450

The rest is usually a pair of rhinos, and some troops upwards of 740 points that I have left. Of course champs too. I think I ran plaguemarines mostly, then regular marines and recently I enjoy using my zerkers more often because of the str9 charging powerfists I try to knock out I4 dreadnoughts with. I deep strike abbadon in with an icon. The two rhino squads do the move12", get out and run 1"disembark extra+1D6", then second turn assault attempt within the 12" of that with move+assault. The rhinos sometimes offer LoS blocking if I get the chance to do it. The other footsloggers huff it behind the walker wall.

[IronWinds]

Ok, to start this, I'd like to say that I am basing this on the small sample of 3 battles and do not for one minute think that all "math-hammer" is useless but i am a believer that statistics and probabilities do not work for the individual rather, they work for the populace as a whole. I am sure those of us who have only ever had our fingers burned by a Toaster and detest them forever more for such reasons, and this I accept.

 

However, I am wondering if anyone else having used a dread of ours lately and found that opponents would rather leave it be than shoot at it? Having used a Dread in all of my 3 recent battles, mainly as a core for what I wanted it to do for the army with redundant back up troops load outs should this not work for me, I have only suffered 1 crazed and 1 fire frenzy rolls in 16 turns, both of which have actually harmed my opponent in each incident.

 

Only going crazy twice in 16 turns... is luck. Chances are a dread should suffer either of the negative results once every three turns. So it should have went crazy 5-6 times. And yes yours did better than statistics would imply. But for you there is also a person who's dread went crazy 9-10 times in 16 turns. I once played a kid with 2 dreads. Turn 1, both shoot his units. Turn 2, one of them shoots one of his units. Turn 3, one is dead, the other goes crazy and runs.

 

And instead of saying "Ok, to start this, I'd like to say that I am basing this on the small sample of 3 battles and do not for one minute think that all "math-hammer" is useless but i am a believer that statistics and probabilities do not work for the individual rather, they work for the populace as a whole." it is better to say that statistics and probabilities do not work for the individual situation or game, but they work for all the games combined. Probabilities don't care about the individual person. They are just math outcomes, who owns the mini makes no difference. If you use the dread long enough in enough games you will eventually have a three round game where he shoots your own minis in two or even three of the turns. That is just bad luck to offest your current good luck. I've had a demon prince penetrate a vehicle 4 times, and roll 4 2s. It can happen. While unlikely it can happen. Just be glad you have been really lucky lately.

 

 

The 2xDCCW dread is ok. But honestly spend some more points, get fleet, more attacks, and a battlecannon. The 2DCCW dread is still sub par to a defiler. So if your heavies are full, and you already took 2 demon princes... then you might want a dread... but honestly your probably better off with more troops.