Pig Of Sparta Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Hi Brothers, just wondered if I could possibly get some feedback on my Golden Bolter single mini entry: http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/pigofsparta/Golden%20Bolter%20Entries/GBEFinalFront.jpg http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/pigofsparta/Golden%20Bolter%20Entries/GBEFinalLeft.jpg http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/pigofsparta/Golden%20Bolter%20Entries/GBEFinalRight.jpg http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/pigofsparta/Golden%20Bolter%20Entries/GBEFinalBack.jpg thanks in advance, James Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLD Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I really like this model. The only things I noticed, and this was after staring at it for a while are thus: 1. The red is a bit too 'pink' - although it makes the model a lot colder and more realistic. 2. Some of the line highlights are a bit too thick, although this is only really noticeable on the plasma pistol arm. 3. The yellow is really vivid and light, which I feel kind of goes against the style of the rest of the model - I think a more 'faded' cape would have fitted the model a bit better, as well as perhaps a nice Blood Angel icon on it ;-). Now - what I do like - the power sword is great, the head is great and the freehand is great - I've tried to be constructive - it is a really well painted model and one I would be proud of! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2294890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson Cartel Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 When I looked at your mini brother, I immediately came up with 2 conclusions. 1 as a fellow BA player, I was a bit surprised at the hue of the armor.. too pink for my taste. Secondly, the color of the banner is too similar to the armor, and doesn't look enough (in my opinion) like fabric. My 2 -CC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2294894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Age quod agis Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Having painted Blood Angels for some time now, I have to say, red is one of the hardest colors to highlight. As was noted already, he looked more "pink" than anything else. A red glaze over everything in the end might have toned it down some, maybe not. Worth experimenting with though. If you had done it like your Sons of Orar captain, I think it would have worked better. Some other nit-picky items that kept me from voting in favor of it: - The Blood Angel symbol on the banner is crooked, and the highlight line through that section doesn't match up with the overall "wave" pattern of the banner itself. - The left foot is "floating". A small bit of slate under the back of the foot would have made the base seem as if he had a much better pose. - The helmet doesn't match anything else on the model. Why is there a Salamander helmet by his foot, that looks to be in good condition? - There is too much contrast on the shading of the cape. Either a darker yellow, or a lighter shading color would have been better, especially the bottom center area on the back of it. Don't get me wrong, it's a very well painted model. This was a competition though, and nit-picking is what decides the votes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2294904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tancred Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Absolutely love this model mate, great paint job and it has inspired my to buy and paint one for myself. Only criticism would be that personally the armour is too pink for my liking and I think the cloak would have looked better black. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2294942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Great model. My only criticism, and this is a lame personal taste criticism, is that the yellow of the cape doesn't seem to go well with the rest of the scheme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2295018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durus Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I just wanted to chime in to say that i really like the painterly feel to the highlighting on the armour. It adds a lot of visual interest to the surfaces. Often people tend to go either for the edges or for some kind of diffuse gradient over the whole model that makes the model look "blurry". You brought it to life. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2295075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Of Sparta Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 Thankyou for your honest criticism Brothers. The main theme seems to be the armour colour and the cloak. The cloak I can understand. I really did make a mistake going for yellow. I thought that I 'show off' by using a difficult colour to paint. I didn't want to try and change colours part way through and ruin the mini by caking it in paint, instead I tried to rescue it and it seems I fell very short of the mark. The armour ended up that 'pink' due to this advice from a 3 times Golden Daemon winner: PLEASE DONT GLAZE OVER THAT RED!!!! Thats the first and biggest mistake people make with red. Red has to go through pink, pink doesnt mean hot flamingo pink, even skin tones are pinks(well some). The problem isnt that the highlights are this or that, its where you place them. the reason your colour appears more pink is because you have bright highlights in places they would not be, specifically the edge highlight on the shoulder pad at the bottom. The way your eye interprets colour is not random, and so placing colours, highlights and so on more correctly, creates a more natural result. This also helps the viewer to understand whats going on, or for you to deliver the right idea. contrast in terms of speed of highlights(how fast you go from main colour to bright) determines texture, the reason you get a more "shimmer" effect if because you go from red to bright bright highlight, very quickly....this isnt bad, this is just something to remember for now, keep going with what you have learned, and finish him...and then you may feel that interest or inspiration to grab another piece and go to work on him its looking MUCH better already in just one thread, i must say it takes a lot of character to put your mind to the task and take up a challenge congrats and keep up the great work Alex I think the mistake I made was to try to have him be a Blood Angel. Originally I was planning to paint him as a captain of the Exorcists chapter, but I couldn't replicate their chapter markings so I switched to something I could do. Had I come up with a DIY chapter, or found one that his colours were closer to, perhaps the red would have been more to people's liking. I will learn from these mistakes and I will try not to make them again. I've started to put together a mini that I can paint the hell out of, put up on here and ask you to pick to pieces. That way I can hopefully prove to myself that I can paint well and get some more constructive criticism on my techniques. Once again thankyou for taking the time to give me feedback on this mini. I've decided to consign it to the back of my display shelf. It might be 'well painted' to some people (it won second place in a painting competition that my local gaming group held a couple of weeks ago) but to me it represents another painting competition entry that failed. James Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2296240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GumbaFish Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Instead it should represent one step closer to your goals of improving. My motto is if you can learn something from a failed attempt then it isn't a failure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2297353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Noble Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 This one of the entries I marked down as a possible vote. In the end, it was that the colors were very muted. By which I mean, the mini seemed somewhat two-dimensional. I think the pink highlights and the same tone of the red is what gives this impression. At no point should you consider this a failure. If I showed up to my FLGS with this mini (assuming you were me or I were you) that I'd painted, I'd probably give someone a heart attack for bringing a painted mini of that quality. I personally like your Sons of Orar red. The way that those minis turned out is more vibrant than this one. Ultimately, I know that we are our own worst critic, and as an artist, a bit (or a bunch in some cases) of the perfectionist in us shines through. I'd be proud of that paint job. Just me 2 reales... -J Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2297360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisko11 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Like everyone is saying, I think the main problem is the red highlighting to pink. This is probably exasperated by the yellow which is bringing out the pink even more. Were the cloak a different color I believe the pinkness would be significantly reduced, but probably not eliminated all together. For me personally, I like to have the final highlight on my reds be pure blood red, sometimes if I feel it needs to go further though I would mix a tiny amount of bleached bone in, not white or yellow. My style for red tends a bit more towards a crimson or wine-like tinge, it's a bit darker I suppose as I usually mix up from a burnt cadmium burgundy color. I like to think of it as a red car, at no point does the red really highlight to anything but red, it will never go to pink, orange or anything else, whether it is metallic or flat, so I try to keep to that when painting. The masterclass article on the space hulk Lorenzo BA was a very good recipe for a brighter red, I'm sure you can find it at the GW site. As has also been said though, this mini is in absolutely no way a failure, and frankly the red thing is a matter of taste. The execution and blending is very well done, as is the base etc. If you aren't satisfied though, I think a quick wash of red ink, and painting the yellows to be more ocher'ish nmm gold tones would be a quick, easy way to completely change the feel. Good luck! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2297390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Lots of crit already, if it makes you feel better your model was in my top 5 single minis and I very nearly voted for it :D ~Gil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2297785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks333 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Like everyone is saying, I think the main problem is the red highlighting to pink. This is probably exasperated by the yellow which is bringing out the pink even more. Were the cloak a different color I believe the pinkness would be significantly reduced, but probably not eliminated all together. For me personally, I like to have the final highlight on my reds be pure blood red, sometimes if I feel it needs to go further though I would mix a tiny amount of bleached bone in, not white or yellow. My style for red tends a bit more towards a crimson or wine-like tinge, it's a bit darker I suppose as I usually mix up from a burnt cadmium burgundy color. I like to think of it as a red car, at no point does the red really highlight to anything but red, it will never go to pink, orange or anything else, whether it is metallic or flat, so I try to keep to that when painting. The masterclass article on the space hulk Lorenzo BA was a very good recipe for a brighter red, I'm sure you can find it at the GW site. As has also been said though, this mini is in absolutely no way a failure, and frankly the red thing is a matter of taste. The execution and blending is very well done, as is the base etc. If you aren't satisfied though, I think a quick wash of red ink, and painting the yellows to be more ocher'ish nmm gold tones would be a quick, easy way to completely change the feel. Good luck! actually you are wrong about the red car, and all you have to do is type red car into google and you will see it....in fact most of the ones in my top search results have a very VERY pink result because they mix with the blue sky reflections very blueish: http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/wp-con...car_900x600.jpg http://www.pitheringabout.com/wp-content/u...07/dscf1875.JPG http://www.hot-screensaver.com/wp-myimages/red-car.jpg yellowed like elf flesh: http://www.tonysfrozenmoments.com/Images/o...ors/red-car.jpg there are a lot of other factors in play as to why you dont like the "pink" look and its not because the red is too pink a blood red highlight is nowhere near bright enough for a bright highlight, you will have zero contrast on a small miniature, if its fabric or low contrast material, sure you can get away with it, but the problem with that is you have to understand very much, light placement and texture all a wash will do is wipe out any form of shape this piece already has, and make it even more flat and lifeless, it will not accomplish what you guys are after the reason people have a hard time with red is because they do not understand how colour works...you cant just add a brighter colour and make colour do what you want, you have to add the right colour to let colour make what you want Alex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2298909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisko11 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Well Stark, To each their own... however, I manage pretty well with my reds, check the forums for proof if you like. Your examples of the cars are a little... misled.. The beetle is highlighting blue because its under a blue sky and is reflecting the blue enviroment... It's not rocket-science, the car under studio lighting conditions would be red and just red, with white specular highlights. If I put a red chromed ball in a blue room, guess what will happen lol... dont mistake reflections for color behavior, and I'm pretty sure that the OP wasnt trying to paint glossy senmm style red. In order for red to highlight to other colors, (or reflect which you seem to think is highlighting) it has to A be glossy and reflects its environment near to or blended into the specular highlights. (flat shaded cars painted in pure reds, cherry reds and burgundys) B Be a multitone color, like some carpaints, especially metallic/pearl flakes, which provide chromatic aberration due to heavy but tiny refractions under the smooth coat (your orangish/red show truck highlighting to yellow is an example) C Have sub-surface scattering in which case color bleed due to density and composition vs diffuse characteristics will create other colors in backlit conditions. plastics, rubbers, flesh and especially ears would fall under this category. Sorry dude but I'm not a 13 year old with no clue guessing at this... Light behavior and modelling is actually part of my job. Maybe you could check up on 'how color works' lol, I could suggest some reading material since you seem to need it... That is if you want to actually know what you are talking about before you get rude with people you want to feel smarter than on forums :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2298942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah-joshua Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 first off, PoS, you've done a great job of pushing your painting... awards are just someone else's judgement on your work, and it is really hit and miss when it comes to results... the comment i made about the lack of slots for deserving minis being heartbreaking was not just some BS lipservice... i've whatched my minis be put aside last, when the final awards are handed out at the Golden Demons, so many times... unfortunately, there is no fourth place, just first loser;)... that's why some U.S. contest are moving to the Euro system, where there is not just 3 places, but any mini the deserves a Gold gets one, and the ones that deserve a Silver get it, and so on... there is always a huge uproar at the GDs, because people feel that there take on the reults would have been different... it's the nature of the game... we all like different things, for different reasons... which brings me to Starks' original comment in your WIP thread... his screaming demand for you to not GLAZE the red struck me as odd... the glaze is actually a very useful tool for reds... there is a huge difference between a wash and a glaze... a wash would have killed a lot of your hard work, as he has stated above... a glaze, which i layers of VERY dilute ink or paint would have toned down the "pink" look without killing the gradient... a good glazing take about 10-15 layers, as the glaze should be just a minute tint of colour... the best example of a guy who uses glazes to perfection is Mike Mcvey... when i painted for him at Privateer Press, i was always amazed at the difference between his final, very Salmon coloured, highlights, and the finished product after 15 layers of red glaze... if you go to the Studio Mcvey blog, and search back through the old posts, i believe he talks about this process for painting his Infinity Cutter... you can also see his influence in the painting article about the Extreme Juggernaut from PP in No Quarter issue #26... i cannot say this enough... there is no 1 right way to approach any colour or style... it's all about what works for you, and what results you like... this is all a learning process... i'm still learning, and experimenting, everyday... not much help, i know, but a little food for thought... cheers jah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2298962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisko11 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Agree with Jah here, I got too caught up with Starks... information to adress Pig of Sparta. I think you are being too hard on yourself man, that is a great mini, and it is painted well. You asked for criticism specifically and that is what you got a lot of, but I don't think anyone would say or imply that this wasn't a fantastic effort and work to be proud of. In fact that the comments seem confined to one thing means you did a pretty excellent job! When someone does a messy/beginner/splotchy/1 coat job painting, it is easy to say what they did wrong and have no debate on the matter. When a mini is painted as well as Gaius, it all becomes a matter of subjective taste. Had you entered him in another contest with the exact same other mini's as competition with different judges or on another day, you may have won! All you can do is keep getting better and one day, judging by your talent displayed on this very mini, you will have the awards you are after. So whether or not you give that red a light thin glaze/wash, and whether or not you paint the cloak ocher, you bring that guy to front of your display cabinet, because it's a great job, and i'm sure any one of us would be proud to have it on our shelves. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2298967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks333 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 @sisko i think you fail to see my point.... every colour is affected by its environment, whether its desaturating in winter, yellowing in sunlight, blueing at night or when enduring skylight scattering and so on....or if you place an object near another object of high saturation etc etc etc secondly, you use blood red in your example which is yellowed(oranged) red...it is no longer red, it has been changed by "sunlight" or increased reflection of "yellow", it is not reflecting an object but light(like the yellowed car example)...and red does not reflect an image of the sky when being hit by blue light under a tree for example you cannot tell me, that red magically stays red, and does not brighten like every other colour....bright red is a "pink" of some form, you can not avoid it, the more texture on an object the more smalls dots of bright light will reflect to create the sense of texture, the more smooth an object the more glossy and reflective of the environment it is if you apply the red to a low contrast lighting, you will still have brighter than red highlights, they just wont be as much of a difference between them and the shadows, they will be softer transitions now your model, has a very dark lighting, like at night, but has a very yellow highlight, implying that the model is being hit by a yellow light...you could have that work fine, but the problem is you do not define your edges and textures with brighter tones, and you hae low contrast yet high contrast metals, and both are in low lighting environments supposedly in that case your contrast is gained by the difference between the cold red(heavily blued) and the much lighter blood red(yellowed)...i will admit i was thinking red gore in my head originally, not blood red, so i apologize for that one....your model would do good with slight edge highlights or texture placements in a brighter tone heres a good website of a friend of mine, feel free to check it out, you may find it interesting: http://www.andre-proulx.com/ @jah i was teaching through a process, that process requires stages at which things do not work....if i teach him to use glazes before he understands contrast then i am simply making it more work for both of us, and not helping him at all....first step is learn lighting, second step is learn advanced techniques to adjust parts of said lighting glazing over a pink with red will not make it red, it will simply tint the pink to a darker "pink", but in this case the pink is coming from the placement of highlight NOT THE COLOUR of highlight this has been highlighted in an exaggerated way yet doesnt feel as pink because the placement is more accurate: http://coolminiornot.com/118822 glazes are filters when applied over an existing colour and in most cases are best left to when you are simulating "light sources" or "reflective lighting"...they can work for highlighting, yes, but if you are merely going to tint the colour in the first place, why not mix a more accurate highlight in the first place, and save the time and maintain your contrast and brightness Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisko11 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 My last point on this as I don't want a big argument on what should be PoS's thread. No, red does not magically stay red, and realistically speaking in anything but a studio environment, it will experience color bleed through various photo-physical phenomena. My point though, was particularly with things like red cars, which is what I generally think of as close to the finish and look of marine armor (again IMO), will always appear red in a normal range of well lit conditions. Put my car in the desert, it will take on yellowish sandy colors in the reflective areas near incidents of specularity. Put it in the street on a clear day ditto for blue. Put it in the forest ditto for green. I'll tell you what won't happen though, it won't appear as if the car is orange, purple or brown respectively. If you asked someone what color the car is in all 3 conditions, the answer is Red. It will have elements of the other colors sure, but they are usually distinct reflections that are relatively sharp do not blend very much. So tell me, in what lighting conditions can I park my car in where it will appear to be pink not red? Go into photoshop, or any other image editing software. Put the mode in RGB. make the color red only, no G no B. Open hue/saturation and work the saturation slider one way or the other. Those are the ranges of unbiased Red. High Saturation /Pure Red is close to blood red. There is no yellow in there. Fully saturated, it will be bright red. Period. Less saturation will grow brownish then black. I know you could turn around and argue 'but lightness turns it pink', but here we are taking about adding white to the mix, not adding or taking away red. You are extremely off on your color theory if you think blood red is yellowed or orangey. If you think it is, take scab red and add yellow and see what happens, it ain't blood red. Why? because its a question of saturation, not tone. What you are absolutely correct on is that environmental factors will most assuredly have effects such as the ones you describe through reflectivity, color bleed and other global illumination type phenomena in any 'real life' setting, absolutely. My only argument to you Stark, is that mini's are customarily painted to be lighting neutral, and if they are not, they are usually obviously breaking from that by being nmm, osl'd, senmm or whatever other technique is used to mimic light sources on that particular mini. He has used some unique elements such as the wavy specular highlights for example, but he has not, to my opinion obviously, painted the mini to be in any particular lighting setting, day, night, in, out, whatever, the mini is painted to work in the light it is seen under, as is most common. Neutral. There is a reason that people go to great efforts to take pics of these little guys in light boxes or white or black backgrounds, to avoid environmental color bleed! To be neutral to anything but the painter's work! To place only the colors we choose on the models! Listen man, just try putting your comments in a way that makes it sound like your opinion, which is what it is, and you are entitled to it. But coming in here and ordering people to do this, not to do that, getting your information incorrect and passing absolute judgements as if you are the president of toy soldier land just won't get your point across dude, sorry. We were all just giving suggestions to help PoS out because that's what we asked for, and we were trying to do it in an encouraging way. There was no need to jump in, start giving orders and start speaking like you would bet your life you are the only one in the thread who understands color. Let's be friends now, do it for Canada lol. Shake? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah-joshua Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Starks333, nice link... Vincenti is a master:)... i understand where you're coming from, and it's cool that you have the patience to teach someone a process... i usually stay out of these kinds of debates, 'cause i'm too busy trying to improve my own painting, and my approach changes with each new experiment... i just think that there is no way you can look at Mike's work, and tell me that his use of glazing doesn't achieve some rich reds... @PoS: one thing that everyone has failed to mention, and the most important in so far as competition is concerned, is the overhanging resin base piece... in my experience of competition, this would be the first thing that would get your mini passed up for the first cut... a different base, even this one trimmed down, would go a long way toward making this guy look a lot more professional... keep at it, bro... it's a long, hard, slog to the top... cheers jah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks333 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 @jah i am definetly not telling you his methods do not work, i am saying that if you dont know what you are doing that it wont work out simply glazing over blindly will not accomplish good things....you gotta know why, when and where to use the glazes My last point on this as I don't want a big argument on what should be PoS's thread. discussions help anyone willing to look at them and dissect info, this is not hurting pig of sparta Go into photoshop, or any other image editing software. Put the mode in RGB. make the color red only, no G no B. Open hue/saturation and work the saturation slider one way or the other. High Saturation /Pure Red is close to blood red. There is no yellow in there. Fully saturated, it will be bright red. Period. Less saturation will grow brownish then black. I know you could turn around and argue but lightness turns it pink, but here we are taking about adding white to the mix, not adding or taking away red. You are extremely off on your color theory if you think blood red is yellowed or orangey. theres a big differene between photoshop and paint...photoshop is pure colour, you can control pure colour, you can never control pure colour with paint, because as soon as you put that red over the white, you have just desaturated your red(same with black primer)....secondly, im not sure which blood red you use, but the ones i have see are by far, not pure 100% red, they are yellowed next you will notice in photoshop that "red" is a variation of blue, red and green, or rather yellow and magenta for a red, and the more cyan added the less "red" it becomes....this is a "red" that has endured zero environmental effects, including light....but since we know that if you take that red, and put it into real life, that red will endure MANY changes and appear differently your photoshop "red" does not exist in person in the same way you can make it in photoshop.....in real life red will endure tints and tones from neighbouring colours, imaginary tints that your eye makes, and tints from light What you are absolutely correct on is that environmental factors will most assuredly have effects such as the ones you describe through reflectivity, color bleed and other global illumination type phenomena. My only argument to you Stark, is that mini's are customarily painted to be lighting neutral, and if they are not, they are usually obvioulsly so from being nmm, osl'd, senmm or whatever other technique is used to mimic light sources on that particular mini. He has used some unique elements such as the wavy specular highlights for example, but he has not, to my opinion obviously, painted the mini to be in any particular lighting setting, day, night, in, out, whatever, the mini is painted to work in the light it is seen under, as is most common. sunlight is different than overcast, which is different from dawn which is different from dusk....dusk is difference from dusk in a field than dusk in a forest the object of learning "light" and "colour" is to be able to create your desired effect but as i mention it is futile to teach those concepts before understanding the basics, of contrast and placement now, i am the one who said leave the pink highlights, because it is not about colour and environment right now, its about the above mentioned, light placement and contrast....however it is everyone else bringing in environment and colour issues now the reason people paint it as you mention is because most dont understand the aspects of changing that...they dont know how to create natural shadows or how to play with saturations, or even how to mix colours in many cases, they arent educated, which is fine.....this person asked to learn more....and that is what im supplying him, more information Were we discussing any of the other above techniques, I would be singing a different tune. we were, because glazing over a highlight is in fact adjusting many things...colour is not subjective in terms of how it reacts to light...what is subjective is our colour associations you also may notice that his red armour is painted in a reflective way, like a NMM Try putting your comments in a way that makes it sound like your opinion, which is what it is, and you are entitled to it. But coming in here and ordering people to do this, not to do that, getting your information incorrect and passing absolute judgements as if you are the president of toy soldier land just won't get your point across dude, sorry. Let's be friends now, do it for Canada lol. Shake? i didnt order anything, i simply said you were wrong with your car comment...the rest of what you said in the initial post is fine you may be taking it personal the last comment in my first post, but that is to everyone...i reply to your information but am speaking to everyone after that i do suggest you check out that website tho, he allowed me to learn much of what i know Alex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisko11 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I work professionally in print, digital media, photo and 3D... in fact I own a large interactive design studio if I'm not going to beat around the bush here. I have been dealing with color for a very, very long time, on a daily basis. How color acts in 3D. How color acts in camera. How ink works. How paint works. Real color, fake color, and every approximation in between. You seem to know your stuff to some degree, so bringing up RGB vs CMYK (i won't go into Hsb to keep it linear), you know that cmyk is a relatively poor match RGB, which is based on a true light system, which while we chat is what are eye interprets and see's, whether its paint or cmyk or whatever so it is still most definitely relavant. CMYK is a cheap alternative we use in printing yes, and most of the time it's just fine, but i'm sure you know, when a truly vivid red is needed, or blue, or green, or any of the primary and secondary triads, you go to spot colors, which are mixed from whichever source tint is needed to create the color singularly, and not as a 4 part optical illusion. So, since you are still using words like 'right' and 'wrong' in regards to people who are perfectly able painters... I mean look at Jah's Salamander... you really think he 'doesn't understand' what he is doing lol?... I would just like to point out you never answered my question... What circumstances are there where my car can be parked in any daytime or non-overly lit condition, and be made to appear pink? The coolmini model is obviously masterful, but that shirt is pinkish too... now the reason that is ok, for me at least, is I don't know for sure if that isnt the color it should be. For me, and most others I think, the point we make is that for us, BA's are most definetly red, crimson to blood, but red. His model looks dominantly pink, end of story. This is because of his highlight mix, not where he put it. Go to the gw site, look at the lorenzo tutorial, the painter highlights well above blood red (i use vallejo btw, although i'm pretty sure the gw color is pretty close) but he used bone instead of white, pushing the resulting highlight to more of a desaturated red/orange than pink. It can be done, it is just the wrong mix for armor that we all associate as blood red. I rambled on, but again, please make sure you answer the car question in a sensical way, since the crux of your arguments rests on this. You cant say its ok this red is pink because its realistic then not be able to give a realistic example of when painted metal that is distinctly red will appear to be pink. prove me wrong and i'll shut up, if you can't, then maybe consider you don't know as much as you think. That goes for the glazes too lol! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacton Qruze Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I seem to have arrived late to the party, but I'll throw in my piece. First off, I think it's a great mini, but I know what you're going for, so I'll just hit you with the crits. +Should have picked a different chapter, as the armor is to "pink" for BA. The armor is fine, and well done, it just wasn't going to sit with the conventional BA crowd. +The Yellow is not believable. Mainly the contrast is too stark, but also the brightness doesn't sit right compared to the rest of the mini. +The banner AT THE LEAST should have been a different color in the circle where the BA symbol is. I personally would have painted the whole banner different from the armor, and maybe done a little bit of the armor's color in places to connect the two parts. +Just personal taste, but the banner feels like it's missing something without an icon of some sort at the top of the pole. +Lastly, the cloak itself was a prime candidate for some showy freehand, but by not doing that, it left the mini feeling less interesting. That said, I wouldn't call it a failure. Single Mini was a rough category this time, and as long as you pushed your skills, and learned some things along the way, you've gained a lot to help you in future competitions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazardousZERO Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 I like it nicely done. Heres some quote i heard that is great for the BA, though i don't remember who said it. "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO....I MEAN EMPEROR" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks333 Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I work professionally in print, digital media, photo and 3D... in fact I own a large interactive design studio if I'm not going to beat around the bush here. I have been dealing with color for a very, very long time, on a daily basis. How color acts in 3D. How color acts in camera. How ink works. How paint works. Real color, fake color, and every approximation in between. so do scientists, and yet they still dont know everything about colour and light...what you do and who you are does not define what you know I think to be honest so far we are actually in agreeance with mostly everything, its just some bad feelings or tones throwing off the responses You seem to know your stuff to some degree, so bringing up RGB vs CMYK (i won't go into Hsb to keep it linear), you know that cmyk is a relatively poor match RGB, which is based on a true light system, which while we chat is what are eye interprets and see's, whether its paint or cmyk or whatever so it is still most definitely relavant. CMYK is a cheap alternative we use in printing yes, and most of the time it's just fine, but i'm sure you know, when a truly vivid red is needed, or blue, or green, or any of the primary and secondary triads, you go to spot colors, which are mixed from whichever source tint is needed to create the color singularly, and not as a 4 part optical illusion. i am not referring to cmyk, but rgb cmy...for the reason being that they all can create each other...they aent just "systems of colour" they are all colour blue= cyan and magenta red= magenta and yellow green= cyan and yellow yellow= red and green cyan= blue and green magenta= blue and red you can create every colour and shade imagineable with just yellow and blue...not paint obviously, but "light" So, since you are still using words like 'right' and 'wrong' in regards to people who are perfectly able painters... I mean look at Jah's Salamander... you really think he 'doesn't understand' what he is doing lol?... I would just like to point out you never answered my question... What circumstances are there where my car can be parked in any daytime or non-overly lit condition, and be made to appear pink? Actually Jah may know some things, but other aspects he has yet to learn, even by his own admission....just because a painter is able to accomplish something does not mean he always understands it either...there are many well acclaimed painters who if you examine their works, dont actually have much understanding of what they are doing, they are simply going by feeling alone, or what they think they may know and so on....obviously this is always a part of learning, going on an assumption until proven, but many times in this hobby its only ever based on assumptions, and people plateua as they are not pursuing what will make their work better The coolmini model is obviously masterful, but that shirt is pinkish too... now the reason that is ok, for me at least, is I don't know for sure if that isnt the color it should be. For me, and most others I think, the point we make is that for us, BA's are most definetly red, crimson to blood, but red. His model looks dominantly pink, end of story. This is because of his highlight mix, not where he put it. Go to the gw site, look at the lorenzo tutorial, the painter highlights well above blood red (i use vallejo btw, although i'm pretty sure the gw color is pretty close) but he used bone instead of white, pushing the resulting highlight to more of a desaturated red/orange than pink. It can be done, it is just the wrong mix for armor that we all associate as blood red. its pinkish more so because the original tone of red is more desaturated, the highlights however dont inflict the same colouring effect overall and you make a good point, and its what i was trying to point out...the colour red does highlight to pink in some circumstances, especially if the red is a blueish hue to begin with...but because everyone associates blood angels as that bright warm red, thats why people have a big issue...thats perfectly acceptable and what i meant by colour associations I rambled on, but again, please make sure you answer the car question in a sensical way, since the crux of your arguments rests on this. You cant say its ok this red is pink because its realistic then not be able to give a realistic example of when painted metal that is distinctly red will appear to be pink. prove me wrong and i'll shut up, if you can't, then maybe consider you don't know as much as you think. That goes for the glazes too lol! I actually didnt notice the question the first time around, so i will answer it now, and it depends on the hue of red, perfect 100% red will not, because its hue is more neutral, equal parts yellow and magenta, but as soon as you deviate from that exact amount of light, you begin to go to one side or the other....a blueish red receives more magenta/cold pinkish highlights...a yellowish red receives more orangey yellow/skintone like pink highlights.....when shadowing they tend to be colder and more harser for bluer reds and warmer and more neutral for yellower reds what you may be confusing with my responses is that when i say "red" i do not mean the 100% red, i mean "reds" as in all tones of the "red section"...again its hard to put names to exact colours Alex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2299982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah-joshua Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 "Actually Jah may know some things, but other aspects he has yet to learn, even by his own admission....just because a painter is able to accomplish something does not mean he always understands it either...there are many well acclaimed painters who if you examine their works, dont actually have much understanding of what they are doing, they are simply going by feeling alone, or what they think they may know and so on....obviously this is always a part of learning, going on an assumption until proven, but many times in this hobby its only ever based on assumptions, and people plateua as they are not pursuing what will make their work better" this is a very important point... i honestly don't know a damn thing... i don't know colour theory, the ideas behind mixing colours, or any of the other technical aspects of painting... i never studied art, or any technical crafts... i'm sure every single one of my minis could be picked apart, and a boatload of little mistakes pointed out... my photography is even worse... i am one of those painters who goes by "feeling alone"... i paint every single day (for the most part), which just means i have the muscle memory wired in to work with the brush and paint... i just happened to have the desire to get better, and the luck to fall in with companies that would pay me to paint, and push me to learn... professional painting, and it's need for minis to be just "good enough" put me solidly on a plateau with my skills... i painted at, more or less, the same level for 6 years, with hardly any improvements or experimentation since 2003... now i've quit, and taken some time for myself, and am in another growth phase... i'm excited by all the new things i have to learn to get me to the next level... seeing what i've accomplished in the last six months, just by seeing something and saying, "i want to do that effect", is really exciting... i don't know what i'm doing, but it's fun to play with new things, learn, and push my limits... that's the main thing that this experience should inspire in you, PoS... push the limit of your knowledge and ability... there is nothing to stop you... cheers jah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193211-blood-angels-captain-gaius/#findComment-2300007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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