I am a bit confused about Tac Terminator hate

[Allgame]

It seems that everyone is saying that they are horrible in the assault, which has me confused given that every model in the squad has a powerfist. Can anyone explaine? I am still very new to the hobby.

[FlamingDeth]

Who's saying they're terrible in assault? They can hold their own just fine. They're not as good in assault as assault terminators, but that should go without saying. On the other hand they don't need a 240+ point transport to be useful. As long they're not assaulting monstrous creatures or howling banshees or something they should be fine.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

There not terrible, the only thing I cant stand is how unreliable a 5+ ward save is. If I was going to field them it would be a squad of 10 deepstriking. that way they cant get picked off by a damn lascannon or something and fail there save. though I will argue that 2 squads of 5 each with cyclone MLs are rather nice. especially in cover I played a game were 2 5 man termie squads w/cyclones were basically holding my entire army up!

 

Although I dont use them termies get my love

 

There not bad assault units at all, I think people just put them on the back burner with all these gimmick vulkan melta lists, and ugly biker spam lists. the Termies will be back give it time

[Sothalor]

From what I understand (which is very little, as I'm new to the hobby myself), it's mostly because the power fists force tac terminators to strike at Initiative 1, which means they go after most of their opponents. Lacking the storm shields of their assault brethren, that means they'll get whittled down by both power weapons striking at initiative as well as attrition through regular CC attacks hitting before they get to make their attacks.

[spjaco]

Yep, its definately the pfists that set them back in that reguard, and I run mine in ten termie squads!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Yep, its definately the pfists that set them back in that reguard, and I run mine in ten termie squads!

Such is the judgment of the righteous!

[waaanial00]

See there are always ways around these problems.

 

- Deploy into cover when a unit without assault grenades is near you. Now you are both striking at Initiative 1, still as survivable against power weapons but with the advantage of killing a lot more before you fall down.

 

- Dont charge units with lots of power weapons. I think it goes without saying that playing the bully with this unit is a much better option that trying to go head to head with units kitted out with power weapons.

 

- Run an IC with a Storm Shield. In the case of my favourite opponent (Orks) they usually have 1 Power Fist per unit, if you engage that guy in base to base with your IC and engage the rest of the squad with your terminators. The Power Klaw/fist cannot engage your terminators until it has killed your IC with Storm Shield (1 in 3 chance each wound, which is as survivable as an Assault Terminator can get). This allows your terminators the advantage of power fisting the rest of the squad without fear of having to take 5+ Invulnerable saves.

 

Ok so all this is Warhammer in a Vaccuum but so is just directly looking at the surface differences between Assault Terminators and Normal ones. Ok Assault Terminators survive better under low ap scenarios, but if that is ranged its only 1/3 better if the same terminators are in cover. Also Tactical Termintors have the potential to harm the enemy in the shooting phase, Assault Terminators do not have that luxury.

 

Wan

[Jackelope King]

From what I understand (which is very little, as I'm new to the hobby myself), it's mostly because the power fists force tac terminators to strike at Initiative 1, which means they go after most of their opponents. Lacking the storm shields of their assault brethren, that means they'll get whittled down by both power weapons striking at initiative as well as attrition through regular CC attacks hitting before they get to make their attacks.

Bingo.

 

Don't treat regular Terminators like assault specialists. They're higher on the food chain than Tactical Squads or the like, but they'll still get reamed by close combat specialists, especially against those with a plethora of attacks and power weapons.

[GreatEscape_13]

Also always keep the power sword on the sergeant. That way someone is striking at initiative, which helps offset the slow powerfist strikes.

 

Cheers.

[Allgame]

Thank you for the explanations. It seem though they do not get so much credit for assault ability because then they get compared to their CC brethren who are better in CC. Though from my point of view, yes they strike last but the powerfist sergeant of Tac squads do most of the CC work ,or so I hear.

 

It seems to me like Tactical Terminators are basically a squad consisting entirely of power fist/storm bolter sergeants with 2+ 5++ saves. Just something to consider.

 

Thank you everyone, and sorry if I am rambling without making sense.

[Xeonic]

Strictly speaking, they -are- equivalent to sergeants, as sergeants in 5th ed. C:SM share the same statline as veterans, and terminators are veterans. Thusly any veteran squad is basically a squad of sergeants. ;)

 

I love my tac termies, though they are a bit vulnerable in CC due to the whole I1 thing they more or less always seem to account for themselves well, they're a strong generalist unit, they're not as good at shortrange shooting as sternguard, and not as good at assaulting as assault termies(and rightly so!), but they can fulfill either role more than adequately.

 

They're really only bad vs things that can put forth either a grotesque amount of normal attacks(ork boyz, some nids, IG/tau shooting), or a decent amount of low AP/PW/rending attacks(assault termies, banshees, honor guard, burna boyz, genestealers, MCs, plasmagun command squads, vindicators, railgun spam). Cyclone launchers or to a lesser extent assault cannon can help to insure that many of these threats don't get to close and charge you or effectively shoot you.

They'll steamroll anything like a squad of tactical marines in CC or at range of course.

 

The first is fine because any infantry will eventually die to enough dice, irrespective as to their save. This applies to the lowliest guardsmen or Calgar himself, though a 2+ save does skew the math in your favor a bit more.

The second is fine because it's their hard counter. Low AP and power weapons are designed to be used to best the invincible terminators!

 

Here's where it gets dicey, the reason people use assault terminators is that they almost completely nullify, or at least harden themselves to the second weakness with a 3+ invuln. They can also ease the drawback of low I weapons by taking a few lightning claws along for the ride, scoring some extra attacks along the way. The only real downside assault terminators have is that they almost *require* a land raider to be where you need them, and that does limit the squad size as well.

 

It's worth noting though that the doubled effectiveness of the cyclone launcher in 5th edition really has made them an attractive option for that elites slot, a terminator squad with one is like a tac squad that can fire it's missile on the go...twice.

[templargdt]

I've been meaning to try regular terminators after enjoying using my two squads of assault terminators out Redeemers for the last year. I finally threw down the cash this week for my first box of 5. I plan on running a Cyclone and a Chainfist in the squad.

 

I think the key to regular terminators is to be smart about how/where you use them. If you're facing a lot of low-ap weaponry like a demolisher you need to keep them spread out in cover. Avoid Khorne Berserkers and Banshees. But keeping a squad of termies near your objective will keep it secure from lots of stuff while they pump out some firepower. Or, if you want to go offensive, deep strike them near the enemy later in the game. A squad of Plauge marines holding an objective is going to get blown out by a team of terminators that deep strike in.

[Giga]

They suck in real assault situations because they get pwned by power weapons that strike at initiative and because they're small in numbers.

 

So, effectively, they will get slaughtered by monstrous creatures, independent characters, any unit with lots of power weapons (banshees), walkers with DCCW, etc. The enemy will strike first, and will often kill 2-3 terminators before they even get to swing, hence drastically lessening the overall strength of the terminator unit and making it hard for them to retaliate properly.

 

To top it off, they also die from the same thing assault terminators die from - volume of fire/attacks.

 

 

 

So, in the end, tactical terminators are good vs units that don't have many (or any) armor-ignoring attacks. They'll slaughter tactical squads, bikers, plague marines, necron immortals, tyranid warriors without boneswords, etc. just fine, but will have a lot of hard-counter situations where they will just get decimated before they get to swing.

 

Which is why th/ss termies save the day, because they're designed to survive long enough to swing their hammers. Tac termies aren't.

[GreatEscape_13]

They suck in real assault situations because they get pwned by power weapons that strike at initiative and because they're small in numbers.

...

 

Which is why th/ss termies save the day, because they're designed to survive long enough to swing their hammers. Tac termies aren't.

 

If you're letting very hitty squads of power weapons or massed attacks reach your lines, then you're doing something wrong. Don't forget that TH/SS terminators have to rely upon other units to whittle down foes numbers before close combat. Tactical terminators can put a real hurt down on foes as they arrive--both in terms of popping transports (assault cannon!) and in thinning out infantry as they get close.

 

And really... we shouldn't think that a 2+ save with a 5+ invulnerable is some "bad" armor. It's the second (well, third if you've got artifice/tda and iron halo) best armor in our list, and in the game at large. They're very survivable--they just cannot be used in the way that assault termies get used--if you're doing that, you're using them wrong.

 

Cheers.

[spartan249]

First thing military experience teaches you: You could do everything right, by the book, in a proficient, military manner, and you will still get screwed by chance.

 

Tac termies get into bad situations sometimes because you can't help it. You tried popping their transports and kiting, but for one reason or another, you failed. Good run rolls, stormtrooper academy of marksmanship, poor penetration rolls, good armor/invul saves from the enemy, didn't see that model hiding behind the hill or inside a building, the list goes on and on.

 

When tac termies get into assault with units that have all power weapons, large numbers of attacks, higher initiative, or a better invul save, they're dead. You try your best to keep them out of assault with those uber units, sometimes you fail. That's when you kiss them goodbye and move on with your plan.

[pattison]

I personally think that it's the best to see them as a tac squad on steroids.

Still they are rather expensive if we take it into consideration that they die relatively easily.

In my opinion they can work well in large numbers and with cyclones. Oh yes and accompanied by brother captain Lysander. :-)

In assault they are a bit extreme, that's true. IF you can make it until you hit with those fists, you're most probably good for that round. But that IF is still there.

Very good points by brother Wan though.

[Octavulg]

I once said that Tactical Terminators are heavy cavalry. I stand by it. They'll hit very, very hard, and will absolutely annihilate things in the right circumstances. Use them wrong, and all that expensive armor will be decorating some illiterate pikeman's backpack. Deathwing Terminators work rather better, 'cause you can mix assault and tactical Terminators in the same squad.

 

Tactical Terminators are great against things like Plague Marines, Necrons, and other annoying things that deserve S8-armor-ignoring-fists to the face. One method of working around the problem of their fragility is to simply do two five man squads that you move together. That extra power sword can help.

 

The problem is that while Assault Terminators can take a Land Raider to deal with a lot of their flaws, taking a Land Raider with Tactical Terminators also eliminates some of their strengths. They also lack the diversity of assault abilities that Assault Terminators do. In short, they CAN assault, but unlike Assault Terminators they're not built for it in the same way. Tactical Terminators use assault for small-number dangerous targets. Assault Terminators can and do use it for pretty much everything. Hence, they're better for assault.

[chapter master 454]

Personally I roll my lysander counts as with tactical terminators, my hate is the sarge with power sword (who I want to have a chainfist!). I am currently toying with the idea of getting the full squad (for fluff reasons) and have a choice between heavy flamer, assault cannon and Cyclone missle launcher. I personally say they are the finest line breakers I have ever used, esspecially with lysander there. Even if they do die they cause a major stir because theres my redeemer doing a fast food idea with xenos, lysander is trying to see if he can play cricket with a xenos head while the terminators go in a get all serious with red lip-stick on their masks!

 

The chainfists also I would point out are just incredible. Trust me, they might see seldom use but when they do you can just ask your opponent to kiss the tank good-bye. Line breaker is the most apt name as shown, they will charge the enemy's flank and break their line by attraction than destruction. Not to mention it helps having a 24" danger zone. (rolled lysander recently with assault terminators to see the 'magic' they do but to be frank the performance was subpar and very very slow acting). Personally I feel these terminators are the best choice because they can literally fight ANYTHING at range and melee and still cause respectable damage. expensive yes, however those points are rarely mis-spent even on their bad days.

[minigun762]

Who's saying they're terrible in assault? They can hold their own just fine. They're not as good in assault as assault terminators, but that should go without saying. On the other hand they don't need a 240+ point transport to be useful. As long they're not assaulting monstrous creatures or howling banshees or something they should be fine.

 

+1 to this comment.

Comparing them to a dedicated assault unit makes them look weak in close combat just as comparing them to Sternguard might make them seem weak for shooting.

 

Its a hybrid unit, some people like that kinda thing and others hate it.

[Giga]

If you're letting very hitty squads of power weapons or massed attacks reach your lines, then you're doing something wrong.

In theory, that sounds all great and nice.

 

In reality, it's light years from truth.

 

Things happen on the tabletop due to luck, tactic, and terrain compositions that you can't foresee. Hence, there come times when you just can't avoid getting stuck in assault.

 

Therefore, when making all-comers lists, you need reliable units that can get the job done. Tac terminators aren't one of those due to the aforementioned weaknesses.

Don't forget that TH/SS terminators have to rely upon other units to whittle down foes numbers before close combat.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of units/monsters that th/ss terminators can just assault and slaughter with impunity without bothering to whittle them down beforehand.

And really... we shouldn't think that a 2+ save with a 5+ invulnerable is some "bad" armor.

Let's be realistic. 2+/5++ is pretty pathetic in 5th edition.

 

I mean, look at it this way;

 

- there's melta everywhere, usually two or even three meltaguns per squad (gray hunters, IG veterans, plague marines, chaos marines, fire dragons, etc.)

- plasma is still quite popular and highly available (all the same units that can take dual or triple melta can do the same with plasma)

- the abundance of powerful close combat units with power weapons (nobz, th/ss terminators, swarmlord, daemon princes with warptime, etc.) means your indomitable terminator armor is going to be reduced to a 5++ save most of the time

 

In reality, terminator armor is not all that much, simply because basically every army has tons of weapons that will just plain ignore it. Which is why th/ss terminators are the rule - they have a great combination of strengths and weaknesses, and they fill the counterattack niche in vanilla armies. Tac terminators are like tactical squads, and hence need to be supported a lot to do anything.

[chapter master 454]

In reality, terminator armor is not all that much, simply because basically every army has tons of weapons that will just plain ignore it. Which is why th/ss terminators are the rule - they have a great combination of strengths and weaknesses, and they fill the counterattack niche in vanilla armies. Tac terminators are like tactical squads, and hence need to be supported a lot to do anything.

 

Add lysander and that 5 man squad becomes a very deadly throw away unit, helps make sure the enemy faces lysander at his fullest (ironically he often deflects the lascannons!)

[DevianID]

As a huge fan of tac termies, I just want to point something out.

 

5 THSS termies + LR = 10 dual cyclone tac termies.

 

Now, a lot of people rightly point out that strong CC units can kill termies before they swing. BUT, can they kill TEN termies before they swing?

 

Thus, that warptime DP hits, wounds, and the termies fail all saves--the DP was lucky and the termies unlucky. Then 5 remaining PFists swing, and the DP is gone. Termies win.

 

The only real unit my tac termies have trouble with on their own is full blood crushers with fateweaver nearby. That is why I also run 2 dreads.

[kaiserstole20]

Add lysander and that 5 man squad becomes a very deadly throw away unit, helps make sure the enemy faces lysander at his fullest (ironically he often deflects the lascannons!)

 

I run Lysander + 10 tac terminators with 2x CML and it always performs well for me.

[Titan87]

One of the issues that I have found people have with Tac Termies is that they are a foot force. With the changes in 5th (Mech improvement, deadlier assault, i.e.) assault and short range fire fights seems to be where alot of the games are won (at least for marines). Tac Marines need more turns to get into effective range, and are slower to react than many mounted units.

 

As for the OP: The biggest killer for Tac termies in the assualt is I believe Misuse. As has been said before they need to be bully units and pick on things like tactical squads, boyz, gaunts, etc.). When you put them against anything with a decent number of power weapon attacks or low AP weaponry they have to rely on the 5++ save which isn't that hot. Their bad reputation comes from the fact that they don't stack up well head to head against other elite choices. (also a full squad with CML costs the same as than a 5man Assault TDA and its Land Raider?)

[DarkGuard]

Tac Terminators can be effective if used correctly, even if they are used to stroll up the flank. Last time I played against Terminators there was a unit of 5 Assault Terminators. Problem? Not really, Vulkan and his Sternguard managed to cope with them all right. Then there was a unit of 10 Terminators with HF, AC and Lysander. Problem? Definitely!

 

This unit cut through half my army without breaking a stride. Now some may feel I didn't handle the threat adequately, but I pooled all resources I could into it, which was 20 Tactical Marines to jump out for massed bolt fire, you know, one of the big killers of Terminator armour. Unfortunately for me, only one or two died, and that unit proceeded to go through those squads before being hit by the plasma cannon which couldn't fire at them because my forces had been too close (it was an objective game, they needed to be forward).

 

In short, I was more scared of the Tac Terminators that day, and IMHO, I prefer them over Assault Terminators. They can multi-task, able to contribute well in the shooting phase with massed storm bolter fire and heavy/special weapons, while they are no slouches in combat. Assault Terminators need an expensive Land Raider to perform at peak efficiency, Tac Terminators do not, and should not take a LR IMO. The thing is everyone seems to expect them to stand up in combat like Assault Terminators, which, of course they cannot. Taken in the right list with the right tactics Tac Terminators can be devastating. And unpredictable. You put a LR with Assault Terminators inside and your opponent knows what they will be doing. You put some Tac Terminators on the board, he's not really going to know what your plan is.