Ultramarines' organisation

[apologist]

I thought I'd post up some of my thoughts on the organisation of the Pre-Heresy Ultramarines, drawn from various different media, but mainly the Visions books.

 

My first contention is that Pre-Heresy Ultramarines were not organised in the same way as the Post-Heresy Ultramarines, based on the artwork in the Visions books, though they doubtless shared many similarities, and their organisation is likely to have been a precursor or 'dry run' for the Codex: Astartes (written post-Heresy, but likely at least in draft stage Pre-heresy).

 

We know that the Ultramarines Legion was 'by far the largest Legion', at '250,000 strong' (alternatively, 25,000 strong – sourced from old Epic material), and I presume that this extremely large size was one of the reasons Gulliman became interested in how to operate his Legion effectively, without becoming too reliant on his personal leadership.

 

Regarding the size of the Legion, I'm leaning more and more towards the 25,000 size, as this dovetails nicely into the 23 Successor chapters of the Second Founding (and similarly-proportioned number of Successors the smaller legions had), once casualties are taken into account.

 

Since Gulliman wrote the Codex: Astartes, we can presume that he followed his own teachings, and had tested them on his Legion in the Pre-Heresy era. However, it's made clear that the Codex is made up of various different documents, treatises etc., as well as input from the other Primarchs, strategists and tacticians; and that it is in the process of being written during the Pre-Heresy period. There are also different versions of the Codex in existence in M41, suggesting to me that it is a very flexible document, more akin to a holy book (in that the original text is the same, but various translations and interpretations can be made from the same text) than a step-by-step manual. Indeed, it's mentioned that the Codex's longevity is due in part to the fact it is so flexible and not-doctrinal – even the Post-Heresy Ultramarines, who are ultra-orthodox in its application, adapt, change and develop the theories hidden within: WD137[?] shows Ultramarines in urban combat, with their tactical symbols hidden under hastily-applied blue paint. There are also mentions that the (real-life) changes in GW's paint scheme are backed-up by in-universe differences of opinion (hence why red boltguns are no longer used), the personal choice of the Captains, and various other effects that imply that the range of possibility is actually surprisingly open and flexible.

 

So, the conclusion I draw from this is that while Post-Heresy markings and organisation etc are a good starting point, and may well have been used Pre-Heresy, there's no real evidence for this being the case – and indeed, there are quite a few pieces of evidence to suggest that certain details are different – which is what I'd like to discuss here.

 

Probably the most radical change in Space Marine organisation post-heresy was breaking the Legions into thousand-strong 'chapters'. We are aware that many legions already operated formations of comparable size – the Grand Companies of the Iron Warriors, Great Companies of the Space Wolves, to name two. Due to the existence of an Ultramarines 'Chapter Master' (piccy in Visions, and colour text), and mentions in Battle for the Abyss, I think it's near-certain that there were numerous Chapters already in existence that operated in a similar way to M41 Chapters (i.e. semi-autonomous fighting forces), but these could also be deployed 'en masse' in a way that is not possible Post-Heresy (owing to the absence of the Primarch or other sufficient motivation to go against the Codex).

 

Since this organisation was already in place amongst the Ultramarines and Word Bearers (viz. Battle for the Abyss), and the operational success it had found across the 250,000/25,000 Ultramarines, I think this was the main reason Gulliman proposed it post-Heresy.

 

Returning to the Pre-Heresy organisation, almost all of the Ultramarines in the Visions books wear yellow/gold decoration and shoulder trims – with only the Techmarine and Chapter Master being exceptions. Now, this could mean that the marines coincidentally belong to one company (or perhaps Chapter), but I think it more likely that there was a different system of company markings etc.; and that all Ultramarines at this point wore gold/yellow trim. This is slightly supported by the Index Astartes: Ultramarines Pre-Heresy scheme (blue with yellow banding), as well as the old Epic colour scheme suggestions.

 

Thoughts on this?

[Legatus]

IIRC, but I do not have my sources right now, the Codex Space Marines flat out states that the "Chapter" was an already known and used formation, which would imply that especially the Ultramarines would have already used them pre-heresy.

 

 

Returning to the Pre-Heresy organisation, almost all of the Ultramarines in the Visions books wear yellow/gold decoration and shoulder trims – with only the Techmarine and Chapter Master being exceptions. Now, this could mean that the marines coincidentally belong to one company (or perhaps Chapter), but I think it more likely that there was a different system of company markings etc.

Well, personally I would assume that it means the Collected Visions artists/authors were not completely familiar with proper color schemes or uniform markings. :( The Collected Visions armour designs are a mixed bag all by themselves, so I would not be in the leats bit surprised if they were not being all that authentic with color schemes either.

[greatcrusade08]

I dont think we can use sources like Epic, since alot of the now used background info was written a while after epic the older info could be unreliable

[Marshal Rohr]

The Blue and Gold for the Legion makes sense, there are only so many colors....

[Legatus]

I assume that there was a system to denote the Chapter, and that colors would otherwise be used again in each Chapter.

 

I.e.:

1st Chapter, 3rd Company = red

2nd Chapter, 3rd Company = also red

3rd Chapter, 3rd Company = red again

[Zekk_Sirius]

I thought I'd post up some of my thoughts on the organisation of the Pre-Heresy Ultramarines, drawn from various different media, but mainly the Visions books.

 

My first contention is that Pre-Heresy Ultramarines were not organised in the same way as the Post-Heresy Ultramarines, based on the artwork in the Visions books, though they doubtless shared many similarities, and their organisation is likely to have been a precursor or 'dry run' for the Codex: Astartes (written post-Heresy, but likely at least in draft stage Pre-heresy).

 

I imagine Guilliman gained experience in the 'optimal effective structure' during the Great Crusade, Ultramar being so distant from Terra and the more strongly held Imperial regions, combined with the Ultramarines very success carrying beyond areas of re-supply. Having to face such difficulties would have demonstrated to Guilliman how thin his forces could be split, before their effectiveness began to ebb.

 

I believe the Codex however was really 'created' during the Scouring which immediately followed the Heresy, as Guilliman split up his legion and sent them to hold critical systems throughout the Imperium, which lasted seven or so years if I recall correctly. These scattered forces would be acting as independent garrison forces in much the same way as the current Chapters are.

 

We know that the Ultramarines Legion was 'by far the largest Legion', at '250,000 strong' (alternatively, 25,000 strong – sourced from old Epic material), and I presume that this extremely large size was one of the reasons Gulliman became interested in how to operate his Legion effectively, without becoming too reliant on his personal leadership.

 

Regarding the size of the Legion, I'm leaning more and more towards the 25,000 size, as this dovetails nicely into the 23 Successor chapters of the Second Founding (and similarly-proportioned number of Successors the smaller legions had), once casualties are taken into account.

 

My only issue with this would be that it makes the Space Marines ridiculously uber - while they are indeed powerful, I have trouble imagining even 20 Legions at the Ultramarines strength effectively conquered the galaxy in a mere 200 years. But that's probably the fantasy part, and I could ignore it easily (I imagine a Great Crusade force to be not unlike a current "Army of the Imperium" is in Epic 40K; a combined force of Space Marines, Imperial Guard & Navy, with Titans in support, etc) but I don't see how 9 severely weakened Legions (the largest numbered 25 Chapters) could threaten the Imperium that they needed to be broken down. Unless it was simply removing power from the hands of the Primarchs...

 

Since Gulliman wrote the Codex: Astartes, we can presume that he followed his own teachings, and had tested them on his Legion in the Pre-Heresy era. However, it's made clear that the Codex is made up of various different documents, treatises etc., as well as input from the other Primarchs, strategists and tacticians; and that it is in the process of being written during the Pre-Heresy period. There are also different versions of the Codex in existence in M41, suggesting to me that it is a very flexible document, more akin to a holy book (in that the original text is the same, but various translations and interpretations can be made from the same text) than a step-by-step manual. Indeed, it's mentioned that the Codex's longevity is due in part to the fact it is so flexible and not-doctrinal – even the Post-Heresy Ultramarines, who are ultra-orthodox in its application, adapt, change and develop the theories hidden within: WD137[?] shows Ultramarines in urban combat, with their tactical symbols hidden under hastily-applied blue paint. There are also mentions that the (real-life) changes in GW's paint scheme are backed-up by in-universe differences of opinion (hence why red boltguns are no longer used), the personal choice of the Captains, and various other effects that imply that the range of possibility is actually surprisingly open and flexible.

 

So, the conclusion I draw from this is that while Post-Heresy markings and organisation etc are a good starting point, and may well have been used Pre-Heresy, there's no real evidence for this being the case – and indeed, there are quite a few pieces of evidence to suggest that certain details are different – which is what I'd like to discuss here.

 

Probably the most radical change in Space Marine organisation post-heresy was breaking the Legions into thousand-strong 'chapters'. We are aware that many legions already operated formations of comparable size – the Grand Companies of the Iron Warriors, Great Companies of the Space Wolves, to name two. Due to the existence of an Ultramarines 'Chapter Master' (piccy in Visions, and colour text), and mentions in Battle for the Abyss, I think it's near-certain that there were numerous Chapters already in existence that operated in a similar way to M41 Chapters (i.e. semi-autonomous fighting forces), but these could also be deployed 'en masse' in a way that is not possible Post-Heresy (owing to the absence of the Primarch or other sufficient motivation to go against the Codex).

 

Since this organisation was already in place amongst the Ultramarines and Word Bearers (viz. Battle for the Abyss), and the operational success it had found across the 250,000/25,000 Ultramarines, I think this was the main reason Gulliman proposed it post-Heresy.

 

I'd consider something between the current Ultramarines and the Black Templar's organization would be close to a pre-Codex 'standard' Space Marine force - You'd have Tactical Squads as standard, Support (Devastators, but potentially armed mostly with special weapons, linking them to the current Chaos Havocs), and Assault Squads, which would not have access to jump/flight packs, as this was reserved purely for veterans due to the few numbers (hence why in opinion, the Black Templars maintain them as a separate force, which doesn't need to teach neophytes).

 

I always liked the idea the Ultramarines invented Scout Squads, purely because their success and rate of recruitment meant they had more 'Astartes' than they had suits of power armour for! So they made use of a slightly refurbished Mk1 (Thunder Armour) and gave them different missions compared to front-line combat. I can easily imagine Dorn, who famously denounced such things ("I am a Space Marine, let my enemies tremble at the sight of me" etc) instead, assigning them to proven battle-brothers in much the same way as Black Templars do (the Fists would drop the practice when they embraced the Codex).

 

Returning to the Pre-Heresy organisation, almost all of the Ultramarines in the Visions books wear yellow/gold decoration and shoulder trims – with only the Techmarine and Chapter Master being exceptions. Now, this could mean that the marines coincidentally belong to one company (or perhaps Chapter), but I think it more likely that there was a different system of company markings etc.; and that all Ultramarines at this point wore gold/yellow trim. This is slightly supported by the Index Astartes: Ultramarines Pre-Heresy scheme (blue with yellow banding), as well as the old Epic colour scheme suggestions.

 

Thoughts on this?

 

Again, I'd suggest something not unlike the Black Templars, who don't use Company markings, but rather a symbol (a heraldic shield-design in their case) to symbolize a Crusade's current mission.