Land Raider or Rhino

[ntgcleaner]

I am having a HUGE dilemma right now about the list I am writing. I am almost certain that I want to make my first two troop choices the Khorn Berzerkers. Here is where I can't make my decision. I want a Rhino for the point cost, but I want a Land Raider for the Assault Ramp...

 

Here's where my (obvious) pro's and Con's are.

 

The Rhino:

the good: The points. It's cheap of course! and it moves 12" without me caring that it needs to shoot something or not.

the bad: loooowwww armor and when I want to disembark, I get to sit there and watch everything move out of range. Oh, did I mention that I get shot to shreds too? this is a high priority low point for me.

 

The Land Raider:

the good: uuh, everything? it can move 12", you can assault ~9.25" from it and if it's still alive when all of the S8+ weapons are off the board then game over for that guy. can someone tell me what's not to like?

the bad: "I can" said the voice in the back, it costs a lot!

 

I am extremely comfortable with the point sink in a Land Raider (because my first army is Daemonhunters, they NEED that thing) but with Chaos, there are SO MANY OPTIONS!

 

I was thinking, if I run a full squad of berzerkers (8-10) in a rhino, then I would run some plague marines in a rhino right next to them. Then I would disembark with my Plague Marines 'infront' (depending on what I am attacking) of my Berzerkers and kind of make the plague marines a shield wall from oncoming fire and assault (great for the anti assault with the blight grenades.) I would call this two rhino strategy something like "The Blight Curtain". This is, of course, assuming that the rhino's got there alive and together.

 

What do you all think about Rhino vs. Land Raider?

[Zhukov]

Rhinos if you want to win consistently. There are a few armies out there which instantly win against you if you field Land Raiders. (vulkan, DE, some Eldar). Also the problem of fielding Land raiders: less rhinos (well less units in general actually ;) ), which means those few rhinos left are less good. (more is better)

[Ashe Darke]

See I think Chaos should have Rhinos that they can detonate. It zooms 12 inches and blows up as if it was a 6 on a penetrating hit. They end up in a crater so they get a 4+ cover save and they didn't disembark so there is no rule to stop them from charging as far as I know, of course they take the S4 hit but I'd take that for exploding Rhinos. It feels suitably chaosy to me.

 

With the Rhinos you could just pop smoke and then get out in the next turn and charge?

[ntgcleaner]

Yes, that's very true, more LR's less Rhinos and less everything else.

 

With the Rhinos you could just pop smoke and then get out in the next turn and charge?

I never thought of that. Strange... I like the idea, though, I run serious risk of being assaulted trying to get so close. and Rear armor 10 is just plain bad.

[Ashe Darke]

So what if they assault it? You end up outside the vehicle, something which you were gonna do anyway. You're safe inside there. Where you run the risk is someone opening it up via shooting and then shooting what comes out or even assaulting. If it's a wreck try and conceal them behind the tank as much as possible and if it explodes stick them in a crater so at least you get a 4+. I've tried Rhinos but my local meta doesn't really do anti-Raider so I'm fine to stick with them although from what I've heard Zhukov is right. My Raiders got spanked by an Eldar army once.

[IronWinds]

1 Land Raider = 6.28 rhinos.

 

Never did this mathhammer, what is harder to kill?

 

Missiles and Plasma we know the answer. LR in untouchable.

Lascannon: .037 LRs, .148 rhinos. Only 4 times harder to kill.... ha 6 rhinos are actually better. That surprised me, lascannons are about useless against LRs. (Assuming equal BS a Lascannon is as likely to kill a raider as a las pistol is to kill a terminator.)

Railgun: .1296 LRs, .2962 rhinos. Only 2.28 times harder to kill.... seems rhinos do better and better the more powerful the weapon... which also means the rarer the weapon.

Bright lance: .07407 LRs, .1111 rhinos. Not even twice as hard to kill.

Meltagun: .2098 LRs, .3117 rhinos. Only 1 1/2 times as hard to kill.

 

So against really nasty weapons your actually better off taking a bunch of rhinos. Now against str 7 and 8 you have problems and the Raider does better... but still you could have 6 rhinos, that transports a lot of people.

 

 

I'll trade not being able to assault for having 5 more tanks... but I shoot out of my rhinos I don't assault out of them anyways.

 

 

 

EDIT: Out of boredom I did the math for the likelihood of a missile launcher killing a LR. You would have to fire 162 missiles at it to actually kill it ;) .

[ntgcleaner]

hmmm great math and thank you. I wish I could take 6 Rhinos, though I am stuck on a raptor assault squad with the HQ as a raptor basically (I know, lots of points...) so I have 310 points tied up in an HQ and his squad of 5 raptors. ATM, I am only playing 1250 pts with my Daemonhunters against my Tau friend who is basically my only opponent, though I am building a Chaos army and can not wait to play. I can probably stretch my total points to 1500 if I buy a few more things. I Obviously like to get into assault.

 

One of the basic rules these days goes something like "saturation of units means more probability to make it to their objective"

[aeroplane]

See I think Chaos should have Rhinos that they can detonate. It zooms 12 inches and blows up as if it was a 6 on a penetrating hit. They end up in a crater so they get a 4+ cover save and they didn't disembark so there is no rule to stop them from charging as far as I know, of course they take the S4 hit but I'd take that for exploding Rhinos. It feels suitably chaosy to me.

 

God, that is the coolest idea I have ever heard regarding transports!! I would happily pay 65 or so points for that!

 

I might have to come up with a house rule for it... ^_^

 

 

Out of boredom I did the math for the likelihood of a missile launcher killing a LR. You would have to fire 162 missiles at it to actually kill it

 

Which makes me wonder what the guaranteed Lascannon kill is (at BS4) -- about 18, I think...

[Corpse.]

I used to do the rhino zerker thing. But take this into consideration, synergy....

 

The difference between having 5 zerkers charge, and 10 zerkers charge is 50% loss to 100% gain (cup half full/empty).

 

The difference from being charged as a full unit of 10 is the difference between +1 attack, and +1 str, and +1 ini. Thats turning your 'bolters' into 'heavy bolters that might not get hit'.

 

So, when you gauge the chances of losing half a unit to being shot up because they were exposed to enemy fire too soon. Being shot because they were forced to be exposed because of the rhino not being able to move and/or other factors where your zerks got exposed. Add in the idea that your early or untimely exposure was taken advantage of by being charged first. Your zerkers are not much better then regular CSM by being in that position.

 

So what are you paying +6 points a model for if they die like marines?

 

10 zerkers = 210 pts

5 terminators = 200 pts

Zerkers have 17.7 wounds on terminators at full squad+charging (almost 3 dead terminators).

5 Terminators have have 4.16 dead zerkers charging, full squad etc.

 

So, with the points difference, and the obvious result that if the fist terminators charged or not they would lose models before zerkers would. 136 points for zerkers, less then 100 points for the terminators.

 

Now ask yourself, would you put terminators inside rhinos, that cannot charge when they exit the rhino and possibly make 3rd/4th turn assault after being shot at a bunch?

 

I hardly ever run my zerks in rhinos anymore. They almost always reach the enemy at full strength, and often wipe entire squads when they charge. I sometimes wipe 3-4 units of marines per turn starting on turn 2. I have even considered using plasma pistols in those units because of rhinos.

 

It's the difference of bolters and heavy bolters. Being able to charge. The difference of having half attacks or full attacks because your unit got beat up some. It's the difference between getting there on turn 2, or getting there on turn 3+, including the implications of what happens to your guys during that time.

[the jeske]

So, when you gauge the chances of losing half a unit to being shot up because they were exposed to enemy fire too soon.

on all 3-4 squad with your opponent being forced to kill DPS and oblits 0_o how does that happen when you can limit los with rhinos ?

 

 

I sometimes wipe 3-4 units of marines per turn starting on turn 2.

against a normal sm build ? with rhinos . how many points is that 5000k with 4 LR zerker units , because all good sm players know they have to hide their tacs specially against armies that are better then them at short range/assault . their whole unit set up is build [mm Abike, drop dreads etc] to dismount opposing armies and let their tacs hide/flee as long as they can to keep being scoring . I have no idea how is it possible to get a 2ed turn multi charge with two untouched LR unless the sm player plays something like a static gunline list without transports [with rhino wall even if they dont move it is still a turn 3 charge] and any counter units.

 

Which makes me wonder what the guaranteed Lascannon kill is (at BS4) -- about 18, I think...

welcome to 5th ed , where melta guns are spamed in every army that can take it.

 

 

as far as the rhino vs lr goes. sometimes people play with anti skimer builds with auto canons [in IG or chaos with 6 man havcks and csm with auto/plas set up] , the the rhinos have it really hard , while LR have an auto win match up. so it depends a lot how strong are eldar players , how many people play IG cav [or IG] and if there are people playing tau.

[aeroplane]

welcome to 5th ed , where melta guns are spamed in every army that can take it.

 

sarcasm ON - Really? I hadn't noticed! Thanks for clearing that up for me... /sarcasm

 

I was asking for the mathhammer on S9 BS4 vs. AV14, what is the guaranteed kill. I thinks it's about 18, but I am curious if anybody has the actual number.

[Ashe Darke]

Well it's hit, penetrate, wreck/explode. So 2/3 x 1/6 x 1/3 = 1/27 to get a wreck or explosion on AV 14 with a lascannon at BS4.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

think about this,is very easy:this edition has one slogan:Lot of units,lot of fun...the player how show more potential targets to his/her opponent,has more possibilities to overrun opponents' army.So,lot of rhinos with squads attached in have more possibilities to inflict real damage than single LR.XD

 

Land raider is fantastic,but a I.G heavy weapon plaaton can destroy or stop a land raider without special problems,but....4 or 5 rhinos?

[Corpse.]

Well, if you remember 1/2 of the vehicle destroyed results removes the model from the table. (Explosion) and makes a crater, so still with 50% of the models from the rhino having to roll for saves on average. Added exposure because the vehicle didn't die, but with 8-10 models they are close together (and have to travel around/over the vehicle to go towards the enemy) either way it's not a less than vulnerable position.

 

Multiple rhinos can work that way, but only if you plan on it. (turn all rhinos sideways when ending their moves, being prepared to have some rhinos die at the end of each move etc)

 

Many of the games played around here are not SM core, or mecha. If that was the case, its easy to assume the majority of his anti tank are melta, and staying still to fire on his vehicles for a turn would be wise. Sometimes though I just pop one transport and go for them.

[Possessed Marine]

There is a problem about using LR's to transport berzerkers, it isn't a dedicated transport. Now that doesn't seem like a real problem, if you go first, it is a non-issue. But if you go second, your 'zerks are starting outside the raider. And if your opponent DS's terminators or DP's a dev squad with plasma cannons, then it rapidly turns into a huge problem. Just something to consider, I'm playing devil's advocate.

[Brother Nihm]

The above only applies to Dawn of war as far as I know so it should be no biggie.

[IronWinds]

Which makes me wonder what the guaranteed Lascannon kill is (at BS4) -- about 18, I think...

 

At BS 3.... its 1 in 36, at BS 4... still 1 in 27. Lascannons just aren't good against armor 14 in 5th edition.

 

A melta is like 1 in 4... not hard to think about.

[Arrex]

Alright, assuming you're playing at 1,500-2,000 points, if you're fielding a Daemon Prince, Oblits, a Defiler and/or Vindicator, plus a small pack of Rhinos loaded with Berzerkers, there is no way those Rhinos are gonna all get blown up before getting those Berzerkers into a position to launch a charge. (If they do, great, it means all those aforementioned units are probably in one piece and ready to destroy something.) Most enemies are easily distracted by gigantic crab tanks with guns, daemonic monsters with huge swords, and other immediately menacing concerns. It's really easy to forget those little tanks are filled with blood crazed maniacs when you're under fire from a battlecannon and a demolisher cannon all while that flying Daemon Prince is about to pounce on something. (The Rhinos aren't even shooting half the time!) I think it's really silly to take units out of context and just compare Landraiders directly to Rhinos. No one is gonna find themselves in a situation where Land Raiders and Rhinos are the only viable targets. Usually there's gonna be other pressing concerns, like someone else said, if you provide the enemy with too many critical targets they won't be able to cover them all, and even if they try, luck is probably not gonna be in their favor.

[IronWinds]

I agree with Arrex. Even in a game against vendetta heavy air cav. They destroyed all my rhinos early on, marines had to walk. Out of 48 marines only 4 were left turn 3 and all I had killed was 1 skimmer. But my obliterators, terminators, and prince were fine.

 

Beginning of turn 5 all he had was one Valkyrie. I still had 2 oblits, 3 terminators, and 2 wounds on my prince. Prince killed.... a lot... a whole lot.... he was surfing on top of valkyries and crashing them into each other :rolleyes: .

 

So if they focus on your rhinos it is going to bite them in the ^$$ when everything else hits their lines.

[Ashe Darke]

There is a problem about using LR's to transport berzerkers, it isn't a dedicated transport. Now that doesn't seem like a real problem, if you go first, it is a non-issue. But if you go second, your 'zerks are starting outside the raider. And if your opponent DS's terminators or DP's a dev squad with plasma cannons, then it rapidly turns into a huge problem. Just something to consider, I'm playing devil's advocate.

In DoW when I go first I tend not to set them up. They need to be in the Raiders and they can't. Them waiting for the Raiders to come on makes no sense, it's an added step and exposes them in case the enemy seizes. I just roll up 12 inches first turn with them in, sure it takes an extra turn to get where I'm going but it doesn't take long anyway.