Chaos Termies - worth it?

[Montuhotep]

Evening all, straightforward question as I'm a beginner to the Eightfold path and could use some assistance:

I have been a lapdog of the Corpse long enough to love Termies in all their forms, but are Chaos Termies worth anything compared to the other Elites choices in the codex? Also, whilst the Forgeworld Khorne Termi conversion pack has me salivating, is it worth the horrendous points cost?

[minigun762]

Terminators are probably the most competitive Elite choice that Chaos has (I said probably because Chosen can work well too).

 

The most typical loadout is the "Termicide" which is 3-4 Terminators with 3-4 Combi-Melta. Deepstrike it next to an important target and fry it. Chances are it will die shortly thereafter (hence the name). However I know many players (myself included) are starting to look towards larger squads of 4-6 to have a more lasting presence. More about deepstriking support then a throwaway squad.

 

You must remember that Chaos Terminators are typically not as good in any given role as their Codex cousins. They would be very hard pressed to out-assault TH/SS Terminators and Tac Terminators can bring alot more firepower and at better range to the table. Like all of Chaos, they work best within 12". Shoot then assault is the name of the game.

[Zhukov]

I agree with Minigun.

[Wolfbiter]

@Paladin:

 

I'm a casual player, not a competitive tournament goer. For my games with friends, I always enjoy taking Chaos Terminators in my armies. They're great looking models and have worked very well for me.

 

I have a 5-man squad I use with my Alpha Legion army, and a six-man squad with the Icon of Nurgle I take as a bodyguard unit for my Death Guard Sorcerer HQ in Terminator armor for my Death Guard army.

 

Because I've had both units for many, many years, they are kitted out as 'all-rounders', which I know is not to every player's preference. Each squad is equipped with a Reaper autocannon, one combi-weapon, and at least one power fist. I tend to Deep Strike them in near icons then turn them loose on an enemy that plays to their strengths. For instance, if there's a shooty unit nearby, I move to assault. If they're assault enemies, I open up with bolters and reaper.

 

My Nurgle Termies have performed superbly in my 5th Edition games, soaking up absurd amounts of firepower. (I've been fortunate that I haven't run into problems with wound allocations killing the Icon bearer yet.)

 

One thing I did find with my AL terminators--I neglected to give them the Icon of Chaos Undivided one game. Big mistake. They made an unlikely morale roll flub while under 50 percent strength and ran away. Most embarassing. I'd suggest putting a minimum of the Undivided Icon on your Termies to get the re-roll for leadership if you don't choose another mark.

[Corpse.]

Classic 5 claw terminators, icon of khorne, all champions charging from a land raider is one attack higher per model then a loyalist twin claw terminator. So if you were paying 10-ish pts per attack on the charge, then your getting your points worth with the khorne termies. Add combi weapons+Heavy flamer then you have the best from both worlds. You pay the points for such a thing too, so be weary of it.

 

 

IoT terminators also seem to work well, but it's hard to say. I prefer to think of these guys as gimp-storm shield guys that can shoot instead of the 3++, and have claws or fists/chainfists.

[jmlee]

What about icon of slaanesh? I just bought some termies to escort abaddon around when he deepstrikes. One chainfist, 4 power weps. Almost always vs marines, init 5 power weps plus abaddons attacks should kill a squad a turn of marines right? And in theory should not receive any back unless unlucky rolls? So abaddon 8 attacks on charge avg, plus 12 termie power wep attacks. 20 attacks total, abby hits with maybe 5, should kill 5 with rerolls. 12 termie attacks, 6 hit, 3 dead but I usually roll better, so that's 8. 2 guys left, I take a wound or two I guess. Not bad though I hope?

[minigun762]

I like IoCG simply because its cheap and I don't want my non-Termicide squads to be running on a bad roll (like Wolfbiter said). Having said that, IoS is probably my second favorite because it too is cheap and I5 Power Weapons aren't a bad thing at all.

[Zeller]

As compared to the dreadnought that everyone seems to hate, the possessed which aren't as cost effective, or the chosen?

 

Yes, they're worth it if you throw them at the correct target. Throw in a heavy flamer and a combi flamer and you'll eat light infantry squads in a turn. Run combi meltas and a few fists to kill MC and armor.

 

Massed I4 power weapons with a 2+ save is quite nice. Bear in mind I run 5-10 terminators in any given game as one squad headed by my commander. It's a bastion of brutality.

[Montuhotep]

I did originally think of 5 Khornate, all with twin claw, bombing out of a 'Raider with a Termie Lord.

Effective, or have I been playing Loyalists too long?

[the jeske]

Classic 5 claw terminators, icon of khorne, all champions charging from a land raider is one attack higher per model then a loyalist twin claw terminator. So if you were paying 10-ish pts per attack on the charge, then your getting your points worth with the khorne termies. Add combi weapons+Heavy flamer then you have the best from both worlds. You pay the points for such a thing too, so be weary of it.

and then you find out that chaos LR arent crusaders and with 5th ed having cover everywhere charging without frags is very "fun". with 5 man you have no slots for a baby siter so any I5 mean they die a lot . + the whole unit costs tons of points and when considering you have to run another LR to make it semi viable and scoring troops it just doesnt fit in to normal sized games.

 

 

termicid is a good option for 1500-1750 pts at more termicid isnt effective enough , one can try to play with a 6 man tri plas tri melt set up , but compering to the effectivness [and cost] of th/ss termis there arent really that good.

[Plague Dave]

I have a 5-man squad I use with my Alpha Legion army, and a six-man squad with the Icon of Nurgle I take as a bodyguard unit for my Death Guard Sorcerer HQ in Terminator armor for my Death Guard army.

 

Because I've had both units for many, many years, they are kitted out as 'all-rounders', which I know is not to every player's preference. Each squad is equipped with a Reaper autocannon, one combi-weapon, and at least one power fist. I tend to Deep Strike them in near icons then turn them loose on an enemy that plays to their strengths. For instance, if there's a shooty unit nearby, I move to assault. If they're assault enemies, I open up with bolters and reaper.

 

Wow. Nice to see someone else running a non-standard set-up. Mine's actually very similar. I go 6 termies with a Nurgle Icon, Reaper, 2x combi-meltas, 2x chainfists. They are pricey - and I moved from 5 to 6 to have more models to soak up wounds -, but they succeed at popping transports, or causing elite troops a hell of a lot of trouble. Since I run two squads of PMs with meltas up the field in Rhinos, these guys at right at home DSing off their Icons, and providing whatever support is necessary.

 

Termicides I still don't get, though. While I recognize the effectiveness of running two such squads ... maybe ... why one would include a unit designed to shoot once, and then die, I'll never quite grasp. The 5 to 6 man squad is really a better option unless 3 is all you have the points for.

[Wolfbiter]

Wow. Nice to see someone else running a non-standard set-up. Mine's actually very similar. I go 6 termies with a Nurgle Icon, Reaper, 2x combi-meltas, 2x chainfists. They are pricey - and I moved from 5 to 6 to have more models to soak up wounds...

 

Lol. I picked 6 after reading the Death Guard Index Astartes, just so I could attach my Lord and have the Sacred Number of Seven Cooties. ^_^ But I've found in battles I agree with you completely...having that extra body or two in the squad is very pricey, but their survivability seems to go up significantly. I don't think I've ever had the squad completely wiped out in any game, even when I've lost.

 

Plus, I really like their psychological value...when my friends opening up with 12-18 basic weapons and my Nurgle Termies shrug it off, they growl in frustration a lot...and ignore my other units! (Very important when my DG army has about half the model count of my opponents!)

 

My favorite battle with them was an urban table against my friend's Eldar...he'd positioned his guardians in buildings and was raining fire on my Death Guard forces in the street. Terminators marched methodically up the street, turning their guns on one squad, messing them up, and then steadily marching on to the next target, ignoring the hail of fire. To me, that's the epitome of how Death Guard should perform. :)

[ntgcleaner]

If you are going to use these termies for Assault, go ahead and keep reading. If not... you can still read but it's about termi assault.

 

I just recently made an Excell sheet that tells me all mathhammer on a unit because I was extremely excited to find out that ALL Terminators can have a pair of L.Claws. My findings were not what I expected. The units I compared were a 5 man termi group, a 10 man berzerker group and a 6 man raptor group (one of them is an HQ with claws and another is a champion with claws.

 

The termies were all 'quipped with a pair of lightning claws (NO ARMOR SAVES AND REROLLS!?!?) I found that with the terminator group (Against 'average' enemies), you are getting around 5 kills (53 pts per kill). Each termi is potentially killing one regular model per CC. if you give them IoK, you can pull ~6.3 kills (40 pts per kill).

 

the 10 berzerkers can kill 13 average models. that is only 15 points per kill.

 

the raptors get 6 kills, with IoK. (remember, two have LClaws the rest are normal) and that is 43 pts/kill.

 

Obviously if everyone is moving normally, the Berzerkers have a great kill ratio, but they only move 6", assault 6". If we add a LR (so they can move almost the same as raptors and assault out of it and not be picked off and run), the point per cost almost doubles.

Termies kill 5 @ 84 points per kill

berzerkers kill 13 @ 52 points per kill.

Raptors kill 6 @ 43 points per kill (no vehicle of course.)

 

Looking at it that way, I would put pure assault termies at close to the bottom of the list, with Raptors coming in second and Berzerkers coming out on top. I believe Termicide is the best way to use Terminators in the Chaos army.

[infyrana]

ntgcleaner, interesting stuff.

 

How about putting up those figures but for more common model counts please ? I would be very interested to hear if it's not too much hassle please;

 

- 3 or 4 termis with LC's (to represent deepstriking termicide done in an assault gear setup, not exactly common or seen, but I'm curious nonetheless).

 

- 6 or 7 termis with LC's (to represent Nurgles numbers, as this would be interesting to read about for pure interest pov, 6 would be given an additional character like Typhus to make up the number to 7).

 

- 8 Berserkers (I don't believe I ever see numbers that differ to 8x zerkers).

 

Many thanks,

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I tend to have two unit of four Terminators in my Iron Warriors force. No mark & purely arm with combi Plasma.

 

I like to use them as a counter unit come down near any Icon I have on the table. Have them take out a threat that can counter attack my basic Chaos Marine units, say like a Dreadnought for exsample. I pray to the chaos gods that they arrive on time, come down & rapid fire combi plasma. While my normal squad assault with out fear of being stuck in or having say a vindicator to face should I win close combat.

 

While if my normal Chaos squads are still stuck in combat. Then the Terminators will counter attack the following turn to help out. But usely go of in there own.

 

Combi Plasma for range & well 8 shot vs a small elite unit or tank should be enough ;) Like wise when charge into close combat :D

 

However if you are going down the Khorne path. I look into mount them in a Land Raider with a pair of lighting claws, make sure one has a power fist to take care of tanks.

 

IP

[Arrex]

IMO, Chaos Termies are on the best bang for the buck elite units in the whole game. 30 points for something with a twin linked bolter, power weapon, 2+ armor and 5+ invulnerable save is not shabby at all. Then there's the flexibility. Standard ones are cheap and excellent counters to standard Imperial Terminators. Then there's all the many, many options. 3 man squads deep striking with combi-meltas! Lightning claw models with Icon of Khorne!

[ntgcleaner]

Ok, here are my numbers. These are all WITH the charge and WITHOUT Land Raiders so the Points per kill will OVER double on the squads that are able to take a LR

 

___________________________________________

3 Termies with LC

~3.37 wounds @ ~35.60 PPK (Points per kill)

 

3 Termies with LC and IoK

~4.5 wounds @ ~33.33

___________________________________________

4 Termies with LC

~4.5 wounds @ ~35.55 (Same as above!)

 

4 Termies with LC and IoK

~6 wounds @ ~31.66 (So far, the best value)

___________________________________________

6 Termies with LC (Typhus Added Later)

~6.75 wounds @ ~35.55

 

Typhus (Special Attacks)

~1.98 wounds (unsaveable) with a possible .83 chance of Instant Kill @ ~112.5 ppk

 

Totaling ~8.73 @ 53.26 ppk

___________________________________________

8 Berzerkers Plain

~10.5 inflicted wounds @ 16 ppk

~5.25 wounds after saves @ 32 ppk

___________________________________________

10 Termies all with LC (Just for Chits and Giggles)

~11.25 wounds @ 35.55 ppk

 

 

It looks like 4 Terminators are the best bang for your buck! Remember, these are all on foot, no Land Raider to take them anywhere. I hope these numbers help you figure out a couple things about your army. They sure as heck helped me!

[IronWinds]

Terminators: Best Elite choice we have. I'm more of a fan of deep striking short ranged shooty terminators than running them in a land raider, but my army focuses on short range shooting anyways.

 

ntgclear:

1. What are they attacking?

2. If your going to run a mathhammer comparing units why did you basically take the same unit and just add one guy? There is not going to be a lot of difference, notice almost all the scenarios with just LCs did about the same regardless of how many people there were. And the reason the 4 w/ IoK did better than 3 isn't that they are a lot more killy, it is because you got to spread the fixed cost of the icon over 4 guys instead of 3 so the average cost per termy was lower.

3. If they don't have a land raider they probably shouldn't have the charge.

 

Now not trying to belittle you, just trying to offer some criticism that will help in the future. If you are going to mathhammer something its normally best to say what exactly they are attacking.

 

Now this has sparked my interest... I'll edit this in a minute, I'm going to compare different terminator load outs here in a second.

 

 

Edit:

Target # 1, a land raider.

5 terminators: 5 combi meltas. .97222 chance of killing the raider. Thats not a 97% chance, that involves some statistics I can't remember off hand, but they are extremely likely to kill it. Just had to do it, they have such a high chance of earning their points back if you can get them within 6" of a big expensive tank.

 

The enemy target: 10 space marines, 1 plasmagun, champion has a power fist. Went with chaos so we get some decent close combat results.

 

5 terminators, 5 combi meltas. Shooting: kill 2.777 marines. Used 175pts to kill 56.94 in one turn. 3.07/1 ratio. (meaning that it would take 3.07 rounds of doing that to earn their points back... luckily they can assault in the same turn, so lower ratio for us is better, lower ratio for marines is bad).

Marines shooting, kill 1.74 terminators and .111 of themselves. Used 205pts + 1.665 pts lost to kill 60.0 in one turn. 3.3/1 ratio.

 

Assault: 5 terminators kill 2.5 marines. 3.4/1 ratio.

Marines kill 1.3 terminators. 4.5/1 ratio.

 

5 LC terminators: No shooting.

Marines shooting. Kill 1.74 terminators and .111 of themselves. 2.94/1 ratio.

 

Assault: 5 LC terminators kill 5.625 marines. 1.73 ratio.

Marines kill 1.3 terminators. 3.9/1 ratio.

 

 

Assault: 5 IoK LC terminators kill 7.5 marines. 1.495/1 ratio. Some improvement over just LCs.

Marines kill 1.3 terminator. 3.428/1 ratio.

 

Note the IoK terminators will even be weaker to shooting.

 

What I really want to see, IoT vs IoN.

 

10 marines shooting vs IoT: 1.555 dead terminators. 2.745/1 ratio. Ok that is horrible. Its worse than when normal terminators got shot by the same squad. Yes they survived better, but they spent so much on the icon that they actually lost more points overall. So your probably better off just taking more terminators... if only LRs held more.

10 marines assaulting IoT: 3.68/1 ratio. Worse again ;) .

 

10 marines shooting vs IoN: 3.03/1 ratio. Still a little worse than iconless terminators. :D

10 marines assaulting IoN: 4.04/1 ratio. Oh dear... still better off with regular terminators. Looks like IoN is not worth it on terminators unless you have more than 5 of them.

 

Ok doesn't help at all for IoN terminators, but I want to throw IoT terminators up against just power weapons.

10 WS 4 Str 4 PW attacks vs normal terminators(w/ combis). 1.6666 lost, 58.333 points lost.

Same attacks vs IoT terminator(no combis). 1.25 lost. 60 points lost.

 

I'm really glad I did that. I've never really cared for terminators with icons because I like having the re-roll or keeping them cheap but it looks like even in the situations where they are suppose to shine(IoN vs bolters & IoT vs PWs) they are still worse than naked terminators. Note those results would of been EVEN worse if I put combi weapons on the terminators with icons as well. Now if you took a lot of terminators with an icon they would perform better because the fixed cost of the icon is spread across more people but with 5 or less guys it is a waste. Now the IoK guys didn't fare to bad so I'm not knocking them if you want assault terminators.

 

Now I could do something similar to when I compared CSMs to PMs and have squads of equal points values and compare them but I can already tell you the results. Same equipment plain terminators will kill more because there are more of them with the exception of IoK terminators in assault. Plain terminators will also survive better, a lot better than MoK terminators and in squads of 5 or less guys they even survive better against bolters than IoN terminators for their points and better against PWs than IoT terminators. Which is sad, the only point of either of those icons is to protect against those types of attacks... so sad.

 

Undivided is the way to go. My conclusion... the undivided god is really a mathematician god :D .

[ntgcleaner]

I appologize, I thought I made myself clear in my previous post (the one before this last one) where it says they are attacking AVERAGE marines,

(Against 'average' enemies)

so, fours across the board and 3+ armor saves.

 

I made all of the units with LC's because that is what Infyrana asked for. All I did was compare the math, using the same standards as my last post to exactly what he asked for.

How about putting up those figures but for more common model counts please ?

 

 

Sorry about the Icon, I was under the impression that if one model was given IoK, then the entire unit would have it. I just re-read and that's not the case. The numbers aren't exactly effected too much though.

 

I gave the Terminators and Berzerkers the benefit of the Doubt and assumed they would have the charge. At any rate, the numbers would be the same ratio, just lower kills and higher points per kill. Everyone got a bonus attack for charging. So even if they did not charge, Assuming they had the higher initiative, the numbers would be slightly lower, but all about the same COMPARATIVELY to everyone else. Mathhammer is all theory based. You will NEVER roll these exact numbers all the way through the game. They are just statistics to be looked at.

 

I do appreciate criticism though. Being a designer, I get suggestions all of the time.

[IronWinds]

Sorry about the Icon, I was under the impression that if one model was given IoK, then the entire unit would have it. I just re-read and that's not the case. The numbers aren't exactly effected too much though.

 

Well actually if you give it to one the whole unit does have it. What I was saying is that for less guys the icon makes each guy more expensive than if you had a lot of guys.

 

 

Example. Lets say a terminator is 40pts, and our icon is 20pts.

 

1 terminator w/ icon 60pts. Average cost per terminator=60pts.

2 terminator w/ icon 100pts. Average cost per terminator=50pts.

3 terminator w/ icon 140pts. Average cost per terminator=46.66pts.

4 terminator w/ icon 180pts. Average cost per terminator=45pts.

5 terminator w/ icon 220pts. Average cost per terminator=44pts.

 

More guys.. the cheaper the icon is per guy. Your are buying each guy an extra attack, its good to know what your spending per guy. That is why even though each terminator in your scenario with 3 IoK LC terminators and 4 IoK LC terminators killed the same thing the squad with 4 guys came out 'better' because each guy was cheaper so you were spending less points per wound.

 

 

And sorry for missing that it was marines in your earlier post, and missing that you were answering direct questions. Sorry bout that.

[infyrana]

All I did was compare the math, using the same standards as my last post to exactly what he asked for.

How about putting up those figures but for more common model counts please ?

 

You will NEVER roll these exact numbers all the way through the game. They are just statistics to be looked at.

 

Perfect, thank you kindly sir ^_^ I do appreciate all the other words from others, as well as advice that maths hammering is only respective to what figures and info your putting in etc.

 

I never roll well on any dice, but it's always nice to see figures you can get your head to grips with :)

[minigun762]

Same equipment plain terminators will kill more because there are more of them with the exception of IoK terminators in assault. Plain terminators will also survive better, a lot better than MoK terminators and in squads of 5 or less guys they even survive better against bolters than IoN terminators for their points and better against PWs than IoT terminators.

 

This is a not surprising at all really. Lets face it, a basic Terminator is an impressive weapon. For 30 points you get the best armor save in the game, a soild Power Weapon and a semi-decent Inv save just in case. Really they are a steal at their naked prices.

 

Where the Icons can be useful is when you are limited by other aspects of the game, like transport capacity in a Land Raider. Sure 6 Terminators > 5 Terminators but if you can only put 5 in a Land Raider then tossing on an Icon should help. Seems obvious but that was why I pointed at transport because it is obvious. Other issues could be # of models you own, how big your deepstriking footprint will be etc etc.

 

All this talk is adding fuel to my fire that fielding more basic Terminators in an army isn't a bad thing at all, especially as potential replacements for CSM squads.

[Spacefrisian]

If you want an assaulty tda unit go for this serup (expansive)

 

4 Chosen Tda

Icon of Khorne

4x Champion upgrade

4x Pair of Lightning Claws

Landraider

 

5th seat is for a Khorne lord in TDA with pair of Claws.

 

Thats 30 Powerweapon attacks on the Charge with re-roll to wound.

 

Its expensive as hell but it will chop through practicly anything it encounters (with T7 minus)

[ntgcleaner]

Chosen in Tactical Dreadnought Armor? I didn't know they made Chosen Terminators. I am way out of the loop on fluff. I did the math for it (using the typical space marine as an enemy) and the set up you just suggested gives you ~12 kills @ 32.5 ppk. Instead of using the Khorne Lord, just add another Terminator, same setup, and you get ~11.3 kills @ 22 ppk. That's almost the same amount of kills for 10 points per kill cheaper.

 

I never thought those extra 10 points for an extra attack would be worth it. But WOW. Thank you for the great Idea! I'm so happy I just magnetized five terminators all with Dual L.Claws (I was just doing it for fun... but now it seems worth it.)

[minigun762]

Has anyone looked at naked Terminators vs Twin Claw Terminators?

 

My gut instinct is that against things with a 5+ save or worse, the TL Bolter is going to make more of a difference then the +1 attack and rerolling wounds, especially if you factor the price in.