Chaos Termies - worth it?

[ntgcleaner]

Quick math (against average space marines with 3+ armor save) Says:

 

Shooting

within 12" = (10 shots, 5 hit, 2.5 wound) 1.3 deaths (after saves)

Assault (with charge)

(15 attacks, 7.5 hit) 3.8 (unsaveable) wounds/deaths

Total

5.1 deaths @ 29.4 ppk (as compared to the 11.3 @ 22 ppk)

 

 

Quick math (against someone with a 4+ armor save) Says:

 

Shooting

within 12" = (10 shots, 5 hit) 2.5 wound/deaths (unsaveable)

Assault (with charge)

(15 attacks, 7.5 hit) 3.8 (unsaveable) wounds/deaths

Total

6.3 deaths @ 23.8 ppk (as compared to the 11.3 @ 22 ppk)

 

 

I did this quickly, does this sound right?

 

EDIT: Added the 4+ armor save.

[minigun762]

Shooting

within 12" = (10 shots, 5 hit, 2.5 wound) 1.3 deaths (after saves)

Assault (with charge)

(15 attacks, 7.5 hit) 3.8 (unsaveable) wounds/deaths

Total

5.1 deaths @ 29.4 ppk (as compared to the 11.3 @ 22 ppk)

Why are they hitting so badly? 10 shots = 8.9 hits not 5.

[ntgcleaner]

aah yeah, sorry, I was thinking they needed 4's to roll and I TOTALLY forgot about Twin Linked! The other maths before this one seems right. I have more time now, so, here's the math again.

 

(Against 3+sv Marines)

Shooting

w/in 12" = 10 shots > 8.9 hits > 4.4 wounds > 1.5 Deaths (After Saves)

 

Assault (Same)

Charge = 15 Attacks > 7.5 hits > 3.8 Wounds > 3.8 Deaths (No Saves)

 

Total

8.2 Wounds = 5.3 Deaths @ 28 ppk.

 

 

 

(Against 5+sv)

Shooting

w/in 12" = 10 shots > 8.9 hits > 4.4 wounds > 4.4 Deaths (No Saves)

 

Assault (Same)

Charge = 15 Attacks > 7.5 hits > 3.8 Wounds > 3.8 Deaths (No Saves)

 

Total

8.2 Wounds = 8.2 Wounds @ 18.3 ppk (2.23)

 

 

(Take the ratio of ppk/wounds, make them equal, and you get...)

L Claw Termies = 11.3 @ 22 ppk

Naked Termies = 11.2 @ 24.99 ppk

 

The L Claw termies still have the upper hand, BUT the Naked termies at least know what they are doing after they destroy their target! They can go for something else with their bolters.

[IronWinds]

Chosen in Tactical Dreadnought Armor?

 

All terminators are chosen. They are the only ones allowed TDA. In the old codex they shared a single entry and you decided on the armor. People tended towards PA w/ infiltrate or TDA so now those are the only options.

 

 

 

Vs marines.

10 shots, 8.888 hit, 4.444 wounds, 1.48 dead.

 

15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 dead.

 

Total 5.23

 

 

Now against things with a 5+ save... lets use guard.

 

10 shots, 8.888 hit, 5.9259 dead.

 

15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6666 dead.

 

12.59 dead.

 

 

 

30 LC attacks, 20 hits, 17.77 dead.

 

 

Now in a situation where they are charging TL terminators are going to do better than normal terminators against basically every enemy. If they didn't there would be some things seriously wrong. They might as well be two different units. One will always be in a raider while the other will almost always deep strike with combi weapons. Its like comparing marines and zerkers in hth... of course the zerkers win. Now throw in situations where they need to shoot or are being shot at and suddenly you start to see everything even out.

[ntgcleaner]

All terminators are chosen. They are the only ones allowed TDA. In the old codex they shared a single entry and you decided on the armor. People tended towards PA w/ infiltrate or TDA so now those are the only options.

I see, I just entered into the Chaos side. I actually only started playing in August, so I am still catching up on my fluff.

 

 

I got finished editing right as you posted your reply. For my second example, I was using 4's accross the board with a 5+ armor save (to negate the armor of course)

[minigun762]

It looks like the naked Terminators would have to get get 4-5 shots off total to start winning. Considering that they aren't Relentless, this seems difficult to say the least.

[ntgcleaner]

definitely. It all depends on how you are using them. I plan to run 5 termies with LClaws and IoK in a LR (505 pts) and I plan on ripping anything up.

[minigun762]

definitely. It all depends on how you are using them. I plan to run 5 termies with LClaws and IoK in a LR (505 pts) and I plan on ripping anything up.

 

Are you not going to run a Fist weapon, just in case?

[ntgcleaner]

As I found out today, the 5 Champ Termies with LCLaws are O-VER-KILL. It could possibly work if I substituted a LCLaw for a PFist, but I think I have plenty of stuff that is St. 8 or higher running around.

 

I played a depressing game today (not a list I wanted, just the pieces I had) at 1250 pts, I had that group of Termies in a LR. I was supposed to go first, so I set up very offensively, then he stole initiative and blew up my LR with his Railgun first turn before I could even move it... That sucked. But after this three-turn-game, We did a mock battle between my Termies and his Commander Crisis suit with a body guard, two gun drones and two shield drones. We simulated this with me charging... That was brutal. The outcome: Commander with 2 wounds left. Everything else DIED. and I mean DIED. It was crazy.

[infyrana]

So.. IF ..they manage to get across the board and reach their goal - they present a significant threat. But leaving the question - do you really want to spend 500 points and risk a single unit against massed enemy long range high powered weaponry.

[ntgcleaner]

If I had 1500-2000 pts to play with, yes. I would actually change one to have a chainfist and combi melta. My only threats on the table against Tau are hammer heads and broadsides. the next threat would be his piranha, but that is light. If I take those down, my LR basically has free reign over anything and I can take my termies anywhere. My first army and all of my tactics come from playing Daemonhunters. I would only usually field close to 25 models on the table at any time and a lot of them were pretty HtH oriented.

 

I have started making a new list with predators and oblits, but I still have to go buy all of that stuff. at 1500 points, I would still put that group in. 2 predators, 2 oblits and a LR. That's (up to) 10 Lascannons if need be. I would be a potential IG army (sitting still and shooting) with a great assault unit.

[IronWinds]

I have started making a new list with predators and oblits, but I still have to go buy all of that stuff. at 1500 points, I would still put that group in. 2 predators, 2 oblits and a LR. That's (up to) 10 Lascannons if need be. I would be a potential IG army (sitting still and shooting) with a great assault unit.

 

Sounds like my first IW list. Cranked out a lot of lascannon fire. It did really well... until I had a game where I had to get across the field... which lead to my current Mech army. Anyways it worked well against most enemies. Tons of firepower, good hth units when the enemy got close. People have tried to do it with the new codex... and its no where near as effective. Which is really sad... maybe we will see the glory days of chaos IW shooty lists again in the future.

 

Now on that note I'm just going to warn that lascannons really suck at killing tanks in 5th edition. It takes on average 27 BS4 lascannon shots to take down a land raider. Takes 36 at BS 3.

 

Takes about 1/4 melta shots, and 1/3.5 obliterator twin linked melta shots. Just FYI.

[minigun762]

Sounds like my first IW list. Cranked out a lot of lascannon fire. It did really well... until I had a game where I had to get across the field... which lead to my current Mech army. Anyways it worked well against most enemies. Tons of firepower, good hth units when the enemy got close. People have tried to do it with the new codex... and its no where near as effective. Which is really sad... maybe we will see the glory days of chaos IW shooty lists again in the future.

 

This kind of army works much better with the Codex Marines. That book is ripe with cheap, long range firepower, so much so that you can easily make a sit/shoot army with a few last minute objective grabbers.