Tweeking your army per game you play

[Hear da Lamentation]

My friend and I were having a discussion yesterday about "tweeking" armies depending on who you play. He was suggesting tweeking is "frowned upon". B)

 

Just to set the scene - there are 3 of us who play each other. Me (wolves), the Deathwing and the Tyranids.

 

I play basically the same army, but I tend to change a few things. So I go for Vindicator against Nids and Pred against Deathwing. I have a few more lascannons vs deathwing - a few more ML against Nids. We are still pretty new to the game (probably played about 10 games each and play roughly once per month).

 

I know some of you recommend playing the same army against all comers .... to get used to that style of play. I can see the logic for this, and I know what army makeup I would choose if I had to do this. However, it seems to me that as we only play each other, it's more fun to have a few tweeks and changes.

 

Anyway .... I just was interested to see what the general opinion out there was.

 

H.D.L.

[Hfran Morkai]

I take standard lists because I don't really like thinking about what units to take against what opponents. I'll simply change what I do with my units depending on opponent, for example my Wolf Scouts (with meltabombs still...) will probably infiltrate/set up normally against Nids. Sure I waste 25 points on kit I won't use but that's the way I like it.

 

Occasionally I might create a themed list to run against an opponent. I don't frown upon it but I'm not a tweaker myself.

[JamesI]

It really depends on the group you play with. Some prefer to set up your army for your opponent, which is fine as long as both players have the opprotunity. Some prefer to go for an all comers type list, which works best in an area with many diverse opponents.

 

I play with an all comers list. I don't know until just before I start playing what my enemy will be. If I tailored to deal with tau, I'd end up playing Orks as an example.

[Wildfire]

Depends on your opponents. More competative tourney players usually prefer everyone play all commers lists, as do people who simply show up at a store and play whomever is available. People who play among groups of friends and have most of their battles set up in advance tend to customize lists more often.

[King Tiger]

some simple tweaking I don't mind, its just like real life, if your going to be facing an enemy with lots of tanks you don't go around giving your troops extra machine guns, you give them what they need to do the job properly, but still have enough equipment for those "just in case" scenarios (unless your basing your marine army off the UK, then you get 2 sticks and a rock, and you must share the rock).

 

one argument I hear allot is that you should never know what your fighting.....now I know the 41st millennium is filled with morons and morons on steroids, but even they should realize that if there going to take back a planet from tyranid infestation there not going to fight off a heavily armed group of tanks, so they equip there soldiers with allot of heavy bolters and missile launchers just in case.

 

the only time I kinda think its going a little too far is if you spam certain weapons to death knowing they will destroy your opponents army in 2 or 3 turns while requiring you to use as little brain power to win as humanly possible and making certain that your opponent has no chance of ever winning from the very start.

 

but then thats why its more fun to build balanced forces with a little of everything, as you then have to think to win with what you have, instead of just winning because of what you've taken

[TheLastHuzzah]

I personally prefer to play and create "all-comers" lists. I think it makes the game more challenging as you need to make sure you have the right tools for any job and forces you to make tough choices. The greatest reward of an "all-comers" list is if you come across someone who tweaks their list to fight you, and you still win.

 

-Huzzah

[Hear da Lamentation]

unless your basing your marine army off the UK, then you get 2 sticks and a rock, and you must share the rock).

 

LOL - yeah. And the sticks don't work in the desert because of the wrong type of sand B)

 

the only time I kinda think its going a little too far is if you spam certain weapons to death knowing they will destroy your opponents army in 2 or 3 turns while requiring you to use as little brain power to win as humanly possible and making certain that your opponent has no chance of ever winning from the very start.

 

Agreed. Particularly when you are playing friends .... you want everyone to have fun. I stopped using JoWW when playing my 'Nid mate when it became clear it would just cream his Carniflex heavy army in 2 rounds.

[PKAwolf]

go ahead and tweak, tweak like you do meth

if no one tweaked you wouldnt have a reason to buy new product

however, that said. if your friend really feels hes getting bent over by you tailoring a list to counter whatever you just saw him pull out of his case.

write multiple lists. prewrite an all-comers anti-horde list and have a hammer list and an anti-MEQ list. then its not tailored to his army but geared towards styles of army instead. thats prolly the most fair/fun to everyone.

[Hear da Lamentation]

go ahead and tweak, tweak like you do meth

if no one tweaked you wouldnt have a reason to buy new product

however, that said. if your friend really feels hes getting bent over by you tailoring a list to counter whatever you just saw him pull out of his case.

write multiple lists. prewrite an all-comers anti-horde list and have a hammer list and an anti-MEQ list. then its not tailored to his army but geared towards styles of army instead. thats prolly the most fair/fun to everyone.

 

This is exactly what I do. It would be totally unfair to start army tweeking once I see what he has brought. No - I choose an army knowing who I will face - not what he will bring to the table. So I have a slightly different army for the 'Nids to the Deathwing. As I say ... this only involves changing a few weapons anyway ... I don't have enough figures to do any spectacular changes :D

[BlackSpike]

Our group of 4 players generally allow full re-writing of lists every match. We arrange a few days before hand who will fight who, and both write a new list.

We don't always know what the foe will be bringing, but usually know what army they play (apart from when Mr Chaos Marine Lash Spam turned up with Tyranids!). Guard may have tanks, or infantry-spam, or mech-vets. Orks may have green tide, mechanised, dreddbash, big-dakka. The only reliable list (of our group) is Grey Knights, as they have limited models and limited codex (and they don't' want storm-troopers).

Once we have written our lists, we do not alter them based on what our foe brings, or we would be all night just re-writing lists!

"You've brought dredd-bash? OK, wait a moment while I put a bit more anti-armour in my list"

"Oh, you're adding anti-armour, I'll swap out some kanz for boyz"

"Lots of boyz, eh? Hurricane Bolters on my land Raiders!"

"Land Raiders? Aha, deffrollas!"

"wagons? OK, I got something for them!"

etc ...

 

As we are a small group of good friends, we can discuss things, and are constantly tailoring our lists after each fight, take out stuff that didn't work, try some new units/tactics.

Also, because we don't pay all that often, I don't' want to be restricted to my one list for the next 3 months! Especially after seeing it get taken apart by a foe! (Or even smashing a foe! "Hey, want to play 40k on Friday? I can destroy your army again, because you have no AV14 breakers!" - "No thanks, think I'll go to the pub")

i have proposed we do a round-robin single-list event, but we've not begun yet. Too busy with Planetary Empires campaign.

 

If I remember rightly, MtG used to use a "sideboard" concept, where you made a main deck, and had 10 'extra' cards that you could swap in once you knew who you were facing. Kinda OK idea, but difficult in 40k, with varying points, FOC etc.

[styx]

Between games, I don't change up. I try to keep a tournament way of thinking. I got to an event with the best and balanced list possible with the hopes of winning. Even for a friendly eve of games, I try to maintain the same list to see how it plays against a variety of lists that could perhaps be a future tournament list. There is nothing wrong with having several lists when you show up.Then decide to use X list after you see who is playing. I sometimes bring two lists to an event and look around to see what others may be putting on the table in general...

 

To me, I am sure your friends think this way also, that it is a kill joy to play an army that is "tanked up" if you will to beat X army. There was a time long ago that when I played Fantasy fairly regular, then I got a game in with this one guy, I said to bring a list you bring to a tournament. So, he finds out I am taking Vampire Counts, shows up with a Skaven list that is designed to pound down magic, wound Undead, and basicly swamp me under the table. I've not played Fantasy with him or around that store since then. It leaves a bitter taste in your mouth if you know your opponent tailored a list to wash out your list, its no fun and to be truth kills the hobby and competition. Bring the best you got, play the best you can and see how you do with a consistant list.

 

Also, jumping from list to list does not give you a good gauge on how units perform.

[Raulmichile]

I concur with most of what has been said. Nobody should blame you if you change lists every game but I have to admit, that at least to me, it is more rewarding and educative to play the same list and outplay your opponents with the same list than "outlisting" your adversary. But that is my approach to the game.

[styx]

Actually, what would be funny is wasting the other person't time that does that....

 

Space Wolf Player:

"Oh wait, I am playing Orks, let me add some ordance templates in and some stuff to stop your transports..."

*starts to scribble out a new list and pulls new models out of the bag...*

 

Ork player shrugs, "Well, guess I should use this list instead since your changing out..."

*pulls out a totally different list and changes his models out*

 

Space Wolf player stops..."What? Hey! I just made this this to beat that list! You can't change!"

 

Ork player, "Sure can, you did..."

 

I think you can see by this where it is going..."Where do you draw the line between changing and actually throwing some dice down and having fun instead of stressing about your list?"

[antique_nova]

I tend to use all-commer lists to ignore this section and because i want to be as competitive as possible. List tailoring, if not done on friendly terms, just means your playing to win, not for fun. Meaning you like winning in general more than the game itself. That's more than enough said.

thanks

antique_nova

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks guys. Lots of opinions there.

 

As I mentioned there is no question of "tweeking" after the player turns up. I'm playing the 'Nids tonight and I already have my list written down. This wont be changed.

 

Also, as I said, I will still be having in essence the same list .... 1 RP, 2 rhinos packed with GH (and a WG each), Long Fangs, a Dread and a Tank. I just alternate the tank between a Vindi and a Pred - and take a few different weapons for the LF - maybe a flamer instead of a different special weapon.

 

I like King Tigers idea that you WOULD know who you were fighting (in a roleplaying, fluff sense) - so grabbing a few extra Lascannons or missile launchers - or leaving the pred at base and bringing up the Vindi is only common sense.

 

Also - as someone said, as I play so infrequently, if I keep the same army all the time, I will never be trying out different things.

 

It's good to know what folks think on this - thanks for the responses.

[rodgers37]

When i started, i always made my list afer arranging a game (so obviously knew who/what i was playing....), but then started making lists, and then testing them (and then making more lists, and more lists, and more lists....)

I am trying to play with the same/similar list atm....i mainly do :)

 

but yeah i don't mind really, if they change there list completley, change almost every unit, then yeah that makes it a bit more 'unfair' i suppose, but the person with the standard list, just gets more experiance, using the same list, against lists that are designed to beat it, its probably really good experiance, getting to know your weaknesses....

[Karack Blackstone]

My vote goes in the "Don't tailor" bucket as well, I gotta say it's fun to have a list that CAN take on all comers, but excels at none.

 

My 1500 pt list is pretty normal, I just tend to like what I like. That's mainly the point, when you play to win it's not as fun.

[Grimtooth]

I do all comers, everytime, because that is how I am going to have to play in a tournament. Even at the game shop, with friendly games, I kinda just show up and get a game going with whoever is at the game shop so not real planned. So my list takes into account that I will be facing any and all.

[Greyhunter77]

I tend to take a different list to my club each week, but I don't always know what I'm going to be facing. It's more for me to try new things rather than try to build an uber army.

 

If I have managed to arrange a game I may consider my list a bit more, but i also tailor my list to my opponont. We have a lot of younger players so I tend not to bring out the 'big guns'. However if I'm playing one of the more experienced members I do try to make it as much of a challenge for them as possible. It's always nice to throw something new at them in friendly situations so when we hit tournaments they aren't totally suprised.

[StrangeGuy]

I change my list almost every game. The core of my army stays the same, for example my codex marine lists all have a captain and 3 tac squads, 2 in Rhinos. Outside of that I like to mix and match, sometimes I'll bring a Vindicator and a Whirlwind, sometimes I'll have Terminators and Sternguard instead. My opponents do the same, which has resulted in some fun matches where we each thought the other person was bringing a different style of list.

[breng77]

To me it really depends on what your intentions in the game are. If you are really only ever going to play within your group of friends and they are ok with tweaking then tweak away. That said if you plan on ever going to a tournament or playing random pick up games at a store, I would say don't tweak even when playing your friends. Not tweaking will make you a better player with a better overall list. I know when I play against my fiance and her orks I bring things to the fight I know I am never going to need just because I would run them in an all comers list and if I want to see how that list performs I should use it as I would make it for all comers not tailored to fight orks. Also, if you are going to a LGS and have lists tailored to anti-horde (or mech) and took out a different list after seeing mine I would probably not play against you. So it just depends on what you are looking to do. My vote is for an all comers list just because it will make you a better player, and it is fun to play outside your group. (For me it was a rude awakening, going 0-3 at my first tournament, after losing maybe 3 games ever in my local group of friends).

 

Another example of tailoring really skewing things was when I played against a set of brothers at a tournament. I played the younger brother first and drew against his orks. He told me during the game that he had never beaten his older brother in WH40k. I played his brother in the next round, and tabled his SM army in 5 turns. But having seen his list i could see why orks would have trouble with it. (Large blast templates everywhere, whirlwing, Deathwind Drop pod, Thunderfire etc.)

[stinkenheim]

i know with my space wolves and my guard the basic list i will take, the core stays the same and is usually geared towards an 'al-comers' list. this core is the same in every battle and as such i know what eac unit is capable of.

then i have the 'frills' or the fancy bits, be it bikes, scouts an extra dread whatever. these are the bits i change around depending on who i'm fighting. for instance against orks im more likely to take a second dread or some wolves than a unit of OBEL scouts, against marines and guard the scouts are usually in the list straight away.

 

theres nothing wrong with tweaking loadouts or swapping in units, and theres nothing wrong with re-writing your entire list based on who your playing. its your army you can do what you like, im certainly not going to shout at you for it.

i have opponents that play both ways, one will min-max every list he writes and tailor it specifically to combat a certain opponent (he only uses 1k sons when fighting marines because they all have ap3 bolters for example) and i know others who are more like me, they keep the same basic list regardless and swap around the odd unit or two.

[Natanael]

I usually dont tweak. Maybe add a saga here or extra armour there for a friendly but otherwise I always build lists for a "tournement setting" were I will go up against many different armies. Even when playing a game with my friends I usually stick to one of the lists I made for a tournament to try it out and learn to play it.

 

Makes me a better player and also makes for a more interesting game if the enemy did the same.

[hmk17]

I know where your friend is coming from. When I started playing M:TG (3 years clean from the cardboard crack now), the two friends that brought me in were used to playing each other. One played a Green deck that was about big guys. To counter after a bunch of losses, my other friend made this nasty little Black deck designed to just trash the green deck. And it did.

 

To me that is the tweaking your friend is talking about.

 

Amongst a small playgroup you get to know your opponents and their armies, the natural thing in any competitive game is to look for an edge. If they beat you, you look to solve the problem. If you beat them, you naturally look to shore up and expand based on the outcome. The typical solution to tweaking in small playgroups is to tweak right back, creating a flux where none of you never really know until the lists hit the table.

 

I typically run a standard list designed to deal with the average things we will see. Though for scenario games, I will usually tailor out the list before going in as you typically know what you will be facing.

[Commander Sasha]

I'm still learning my tastes, but I keep lists in my army bag, usually on spreadsheets that do the maths for me; I have a page of anti-horde at 1k, 1k5, 1k75, and another for anti MEQ; that seems fair to me!