Combatting the wave of Rolla spam lists...

[ShinyRhino]

So, with the new Ork FAQ ruling making Deffrolla rules 100% clear, the world is being inundated with new "Rolla Wagon Spam" lists.

All these lists hinge on multiple Battlewagons with Deffrollas, and a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field (KFF).

The elaborate Ork plan is to simply park the KFF in the center of the vehicle line, and drive forward. Typically Orky.

What ideas have folks come up with to block this tactic?

 

Personally, I've come up with a few:

 

- Deepstriking units. If your opponent doesn't cover his flanks 100%, deepstriking Speeders with multimeltas can drop in and hit side/rear arcs. They're cheap enough to be expendable against the points-heavy Wagon setups. You have to brave the 4+ KFF save, but it's a gamble worth taking, IMO.

 

- Fast-movers. Attack bike squadrons, or even bikers with attached MM attack bikes can maneuver quickly and flexibly, allowing shots at side/rear arcs.

 

- Empty pods. Yes, empty pods. Ork Rolla lists are relying on large blocks of big vehicles. This causes them to start the game in Parking Lot mode. If your list contains drop pods, you can hem in that parking lot for at least a turn, or at least make them maneuver differently than they want to. This tactic relies on the limitations of the Tank Shock/Ram rules. In order to perform a Shock/Ram, the vehicle must follow an exact sequence of steps. First, the vehicle must be pivoted on the spot. If you land a pod within the Battlewagon's pivot diameter, you've just managed to limit his range of motion. Second, the vehicle must move in a straight line forward. If you land an empty pod close enough to the Wagon, you can keep it from Shocking or Ramming its desired target. Even if the Wagon disembarks its Nob payload to attempt to clear your pod out of the way, the Nobz can't clear the pod until at least the Shooting phase, and by then the time for Tank Shock/Ram is gone!

 

- Counter-ramming! Take an empty (or full, whatever), cheap vehicle. Deploy or maneuver it so that it is able to flank the Wagon formation. Ram the Wagon in the side arc. This is a tricky one, as you're taking a hit in return. The cheapest vehicle we have is the Rhino, with its front AV11. You can actually move the Rhino up to 11 inches for the ram into a Wagon's side armor without risking its destruction. The Ork gets a S5 hit on you (2 for AV12 facing, 3 for moving 11 inches). You get a S5 hit on the Wagon (1 for tank, 1 for AV11, 3 for movement), which won't affect the AV. BUT, you are now flush against the Wagon, and it cannot pivot. It can only Ram/Shock things that are DIRECTLY in front of it. If your Rhino is not Immobilized by the Glancing hit, either slide it 1" up or down the side of the Wagon every turn to lock it out of pivoting and give yourself a defense against being assaulted in melee, or (if the Wagon moved away) pivot in your next turn and Ram it in the ass.

 

The counter-ram and empty pods are more stall tactics, allowing you to reposition units that are at risk of being Rammed or Shocked, but used at the right time, they can cripple or frustrate the Ork Wagon list in short order.

 

Anyone else have some ideas?

[Jackelope King]

Wagons still have gargantuan, all-but-unblockable side-arcs. Marines have fast melta capability on bikes and on speeders. We'll be fine.

 

Here's how the arms race is going to go (at least between Marines and Orks):

 

The Orks have their first reliable anti-tank weapon, which only has a threat-range of 13". This means, to combat things like Mech Marines and Land Raider spam, they need to spam Battlewagons of their own.

 

But "spam" in this case is going to be limited to two or three open-topped monstrosities. Why? Orks need to take a Big Mek to get that KFF that they all love so much. That means they can only squeeze in one Warboss to take Nobz as Troops, and while Nobz can take battlewagons as transports, they compete with Lootaz for that precious Elites slot. And they need Lootaz for the arms race.

 

You see, Marines are ubiquitous, and we all know that Land Speeders are good. And if they charge forward with their Battlewagons, we can just zoom over their heads with Land Speeders and provide an quandry: do they keep rolling forward full-bore, and then take multimelta fire up their AV10, open-topped rears? Or do they turn around and deal with the Speeders? Remember that Skimmers are going to get a 3+ "Dodge" against being Rammed, and Battlewagon shooting is pretty weak sauce (especially if you want to spam them). Plus, this means that the orks will either need to send a Wagon back to ram the Speedera (and remember, those wagons have to move their full 13") and have that one out in the open with no cover save, or wheel the whole formation around to deal wtih them. The only reliable method orks have of taking out speeders are going to be Lootaz, who take those Elites slots from Nobz.

 

This means at most, you'll see 4 battlewagons, but I honestly think 2-3 will be seen in more competitive lists, with 4 being reserved for big games like 'Ard Boyz. Yes, it makes Orks a competitive army once again, but open-topped vehicles can die to glances, and a glancing hit on them from AP1 weaponry is just like a penetrating hit. So keep shooting :D

[angelspast]

Well it's been long due for the Orks to get a reliable anti-tank option. No more will people just plop down 3 landraiders for an almost certain win.

 

I don't see marine tactics being really effected by this though. Battle wagons aren't the toughest thing out there to shoot down, being open topped...

[waaanial00]

Ahh but with the Deffrollas being used as Anti Tank do they really need as many lootas anymore?

 

Just doing the math and at 1500 points they can get

 

HQ

Kff Mek

Warboss - PK

 

Elite

3 MANs - Battlewagon Deffrolla

10 Lootas

10 Lootas

 

Troops

 

3 MANs - Battlewagon Deffrolla

19 Boys - PK

19 Boys - PK

 

HS

Battlewagon Deffrolla

Battlewagon Deffrolla

 

With points to spare, upgrades are included to bring each Battlewagon to a sensible level (Armour plates, Grot Riggers, Armour Plates and 1 Big Shoota) as well as including all the regular upgrades you would expect of the Ork Menace.

 

Actually a pretty decent list with 4 AV14. though of course Deffrollas dont solve every situation it is certainly a big boost.

 

One thing to remember though is that few people will want to transport more than 2 Battlewagons around with them, they are a bit bulky. Its also going to take a while for most Ork players to build their Deffrollas so you might get a better appreciation of the impact of this in a couple of weeks time.

 

Still Marines should be OK, as long as you take both ranged and close AT. Also use more multi level terrain, Orks cant tank shock stuff which is on the first floor.

 

Wan

[BlackSpike]

Orks now have vehicles with 13" threat range vs vehicles. :D

 

Other armies have had this (and better) for a long time. Similar tactics should work!

Sure the KFF provides some protection, but not vs assault so get stuck in there!

Get side/rear-armour strikes from attack bikes, speeders etc.

[FlamingDeth]

Reading the FAQ, there's a bit that mentions being able to tank shock/ram more than one unit if they're all in a straight line, and a bit that mentions D&G attempts still receiving the extra hits, even if they succeed. Is there something that I'm missing that makes them better antitank than they were before?

[BlackSpike]

Reading the FAQ, there's a bit that mentions being able to tank shock/ram more than one unit if they're all in a straight line, and a bit that mentions D&G attempts still receiving the extra hits, even if they succeed. Is there something that I'm missing that makes them better antitank than they were before?

 

There used to be debate as to whether Deff Rolla could be used against vehicles. It states it can be used in Tank Shock, but the rules were unclear if it included Ram attacks. Some people said yes, some said no.

 

GW have now said YES.

[deepstrike]

Wagons still have gargantuan, all-but-unblockable side-arcs. Marines have fast melta capability on bikes and on speeders. We'll be fine.

 

Here's how the arms race is going to go (at least between Marines and Orks):

 

The Orks have their first reliable anti-tank weapon, which only has a threat-range of 13". This means, to combat things like Mech Marines and Land Raider spam, they need to spam Battlewagons of their own.

 

But "spam" in this case is going to be limited to two or three open-topped monstrosities. Why? Orks need to take a Big Mek to get that KFF that they all love so much. That means they can only squeeze in one Warboss to take Nobz as Troops, and while Nobz can take battlewagons as transports, they compete with Lootaz for that precious Elites slot. And they need Lootaz for the arms race.

 

You see, Marines are ubiquitous, and we all know that Land Speeders are good. And if they charge forward with their Battlewagons, we can just zoom over their heads with Land Speeders and provide an quandry: do they keep rolling forward full-bore, and then take multimelta fire up their AV10, open-topped rears? Or do they turn around and deal with the Speeders? Remember that Skimmers are going to get a 3+ "Dodge" against being Rammed, and Battlewagon shooting is pretty weak sauce (especially if you want to spam them). Plus, this means that the orks will either need to send a Wagon back to ram the Speedera (and remember, those wagons have to move their full 13") and have that one out in the open with no cover save, or wheel the whole formation around to deal wtih them. The only reliable method orks have of taking out speeders are going to be Lootaz, who take those Elites slots from Nobz.

 

This means at most, you'll see 4 battlewagons, but I honestly think 2-3 will be seen in more competitive lists, with 4 being reserved for big games like 'Ard Boyz. Yes, it makes Orks a competitive army once again, but open-topped vehicles can die to glances, and a glancing hit on them from AP1 weaponry is just like a penetrating hit. So keep shooting :cuss

They just shoot the landspeeders with lootas

[greatcrusade08]

quick question, doesnt the KFF provide a cover save or is it an inv save?

If its cover it doesnt protect the wagons from CC meltabombs :lol:

[waaanial00]

quick question, doesnt the KFF provide a cover save or is it an inv save?

If its cover it doesnt protect the wagons from CC meltabombs :lol:

 

Its a cover save. Nothing protects a Vehicle from Grenades, apart from movement however you can bet your wage packet that someone is thinking of first turn charging with a LSS and scouts :lol:

 

Wan

[FlamingDeth]

They just shoot the landspeeders with lootas

He actually mentioned lootas as a way to deal with landspeeders in that post you just quoted. Regardless, lootas have to be stationary to fire and speeders are fast enough that you can pretty much always be out of LoS of the lootas. If you let them shoot down your speeders it's entirely your fault.

 

In general I agree, fast melta will deal with battlewagons with little trouble. Missiles or lascannons to side armor will also deal with them just fine, so will meltabombs or powerfists, though those will take a little bit more finesse to use. AV14 is way less dangerous and impressive when they have to run it directly up to our lines to put it to effective use.

[greatcrusade08]

quick question, doesnt the KFF provide a cover save or is it an inv save?

If its cover it doesnt protect the wagons from CC meltabombs ;)

 

Its a cover save. Nothing protects a Vehicle from Grenades, apart from movement however you can bet your wage packet that someone is thinking of first turn charging with a LSS and scouts ;)

 

Wan

 

guilty as charged, just take out the transport with the KFF and bobs your mothers brother...

[Grey Mage]

*shrugs* itll die down in a month or so once theyve all had a chance to go "SEE I TOLD YOU!" and then find that its not a must have anymore.

[DerekLee688]

Ork players around me don't own collections to allow such dynamic list changes. At most I'll see two rolla's in any list. Until the serious players come to the tournies.