Emperor's Scourge Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Anyone else find the information disclosed by Magnus to his Captains about the Canis Helix and Fenrisian Wolves interesting? It seemed to me that Magnus was saying that the Canis Helix is NOT a result of Russ' geneseed, but its a genetic marker inherent in all inhabitants on Fenris. Like the earliest settlers altered their own DNA(spliced with Terran Wolf DNA) in order to survive on Fenris. "There are no wolves on Fenris" Magnus says this. Anyone thinking what I'm thinking? That Fenrisian Wolves are descendents of the original settlers that had their Canis Helix mutated much like the Wulfen today? This also begs the question...if Russ' ORIGINAL geneseed(one that hasn't already been implanted and taken on characteristics of a Fenrisian host) was implanted in a non-fenrisian would it be pure? Or perhaps the failure of the Wolf Brothers was BECAUSE they weren't native Fenrisians? Not sure where WB were recruited from so this could be off base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Not everything written should be taken seriously, battle reports from White Dwarf is a great example for that. With Games Workshop and their inconsistency with fluff especially. I wouldn't worrie to much! your concern also alarmed me when I read that part in the book, but its just like what Russ told Magnus, At the end of chapter 11. Not everything needs an explanation. Some things just are! The inconsistencies happen with different authors and even artist. In the book, Ahriman describes Russ by having copper coloured hair. While in the preview cover of the upcoming Prospero Burns, the artist has Russ with blonde. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2298336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I put up a long post about A Thousand Sons in the Tzeentch board. Basically I found A Thousand Sons severely dissapointing and wouldn't give any real credence to any of McNiell's rambling on the Space Wolves and Fenris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2298410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 wouldnt it make more sense that magnus would just be giving a pre-battle speech to his captains to bring down the hype of the space wolves? i mean, honestly saying that the space wolves are descended from a bunch of dogs seems to be more of an insult. plus, this would not account for how russ himself has the canis helix since he is not a fenrisian, he was made by the emperor himself. just magnus spreading misinformation to stop his army from wetting themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2298415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted February 26, 2010 Author Share Posted February 26, 2010 He wasn't saying that the Space Wolves were descended from wolves. I took it as meaning that the Fenrisian Wolves were descended from the original settlers along with the human inhabitants of Fenris. Two divergent mutations of the same gene spliced population. As for Russ...well if you wanted you could say that because he's a Primarch and designed to be adaptable perhaps he absorbed a bit of the canis mutation while he was killing and eating on Fenris. Yeah, its just McNeil's plot rambling, but still...interesting idea if GW decides to run with it in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2298456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Well, if the Space Wolves Legion (pre-rediscovery of Russ and recruitment of Fenris) already had the signs of the Canis Helix (skin,teeth, feral appearance, even wulfen or mark of wulfen) then Magnus would just be talking out his butt. As has been shown throughtout the universe of 40k, Chaos has always used lies and deceit to further their goals and ambitions. It would only make sense that a Chaos commander would try and create any lie to break the myth/fear of the legendary Space Wolves to bolster the confidence of his subordinates. This has even been used in current wars. Spreading of misinformation and sharing of "bad" intel to lessen the fear of an enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2298915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Several things... 1. Remember this is written from the perspective of the sons. Who knows the veracity of his statements or even if he clearly understands 2. IF it is revealed to be true in any GW medium that is sanctioned by their fluff meister Alan Merrett then it is canon. For example the Emperor sending us to attack Prospero versus being told to attack Prospero by the traitor Horus is not canon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted February 26, 2010 Author Share Posted February 26, 2010 Magnus wasn't an Agent of Chaos in this book. He turned to Chaos AFTER the wolves sacked Prospero and Horus turned everyone against him. All the way up to Horus' fall, Magnus was loyal to the Emperor. A Thousand Suns takes place well before the events on Davin. Not saying this is all canon because there's basically no such thing in 40k. Anything can be rewritten or reworded at any moment...especially Black Library stuff. Just having a discussion from the point of view that Magnus' statements are true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 While Magnus makes veiled references to the genetics splicing that Human scientists performed in early colonization he also makes another more subtle reference that I found interesting. "I wonder if there were any native species on Fenris?" Think about all that is on Fenris. Doppelgangers, Wolves, Bears, Trolls, Mastodons, Kraken, etc. (there are a good number of species we know from various sources.) Were all of them once human? Or were they all something else? When Phosis Tokar is fighting the wolf at the end of the book, he locks eyes with it and sees the truth. "Alien" is used as a descriptor a little later on. Add to it, that all the wolves throughout the book could see the Tuetlaries of the Thousand Sons and reacted to them. The subplot of "There are no wolves on Fenris" is the counterpoint of the Thousand Sons "flesh change". While the Canis Helix helps bond and strengthen the geneseed of Russ (a very powerful psyker as the book reveals) allowing the Wolves to be a more stable piece of genetic engineering. However, the same cannot be said of Magnus' geneseed and the ravages of its instability on the Astartes who bore it. While we might not get a direct answer from GW on this new bit of fluff, I think it is supposed to be one of those topics that hangs open and out there for debate. Chaos players will point to it and argue that we are the same as them, while we can make our on decisions as to the meaning of it. Edit: While Magnus was loyal to the Emperor, he was most definitely Chaos. Bargaining with daemons and creatures of the warp leads to Chaos (Puritan Inquisition: 101), Magnus didn't realize it was until the end (despite EVERYONE telling him throughout his life) due to his own hubris. In the end, he surrendered to it fully to try and save his Legion and the people of his world from complete annihilation. I really liked the Faust metaphor he uses, in comparative to his own situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 While Magnus was loyal to the Emperor, he was most definitely Chaos. Bargaining with daemons and creatures of the warp leads to Chaos (Puritan Inquisition: 101), Magnus didn't realize it was until the end (despite EVERYONE telling him throughout his life) due to his own hubris. In the end, he surrendered to it fully to try and save his Legion and the people of his world from complete annihilation. Thats not quite as it was written. Magnus made the offer of his soul for the restoration of his Legion, but he didn't realise that "something" took notice and that it would bite him on arse. It seems that Valdor had a hand in turning the attack in to what it was. the passage with the fight between Ahriman and Ohthere, it seems he told a lie to the Wolf Lord. As for the Canis Helix, it still makes the SW monsters that maybe the opposite of the flesh changed, but still monsters just the same. Maybe those wolves are the original inhabitants, just change by a freak biological experiment. Hope the next book goes in to more detail, and given that the two authors worked together, some of the plot hole should make a lot more sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 It doesn't make sense with the whole, Primarchs being scattered and eventually landing on their planets. It makes it appear like Russ crashing on Fenris was not so much of a coincidence, especially with the whole new Canis Helix theory. I'd say Russ hit jackpot. I mean out of all the planets in the galaxy, what are the chances he would crash on Fenris? either its lack of imagination on the writers part, or its sheer genius plot twist! for the bigger picture of things to follow in the long run. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Well the primarchs being scattered is not necessarily an accident. Chaos works in mysterious ways...maybe some of the re-locations helped them (Word bearers) maybe some did not work so well (Space Wolves) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 I like the new fluff to be honest. I always thought it was kind of stupid to think that normal humans would survive on Fenris. Its an uber Deathworld. Some deathworlds are declared as such because of environmental concerns...others because of native flora/fauna. Fenris is a deathworld because of both. Its "native" species are all hyper predators. The land itself is constantly reshaping. It has no real value in the way of resources. The ONLY value it has to the Imperium is as a home and recruitment pool of the Space Wolves. I read all that and wonder...why the hell would anyone want to settle it? Why would it still have people on it thousands of years later? A Thousand Sons gave us something approaching an answer. Is it official? No its Black Library...until it shows up in a Codex its not solid. Is it an interesting idea? I think so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Other home worlds produce Space Marines, warriors of the Imperium. Fenris produces heroes not just for the Imperium, but for every man, woman and child loyal to the All-father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arraken Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Think about all that is on Fenris. Doppelgangers, Wolves, Bears, Trolls, Mastodons, Kraken, etc. (there are a good number of species we know from various sources.) Were all of them once human? Or were they all something else? More than likely, Kraken are at least the remnant of a Hive Fleet. Numerous creatures on numerous worlds (Catachan Devil for example) are left overs from a previous Hive Fleet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Think about all that is on Fenris. Doppelgangers, Wolves, Bears, Trolls, Mastodons, Kraken, etc. (there are a good number of species we know from various sources.) Were all of them once human? Or were they all something else? More than likely, Kraken are at least the remnant of a Hive Fleet. Numerous creatures on numerous worlds (Catachan Devil for example) are left overs from a previous Hive Fleet. And that's my point. There's a double meaning to everything Magnus says in that passage. (Part of McNeil's intentional vagueness on the issue.) While he can easily refer to gene encoded humans being transformed (Say, twisted by psychic backlash of the Eldar cataclysm that started Old Night), we don't know what other "visitors" might have left behind that humans found and bent to their purposes. Things like the Kraken are possible evidence of xenos visits before human arrival. There were a lot of races in the galaxy back in the day. Fenris had been sitting there for a longtime before humans arrived and who knows what nightmares Old Night brought. Its even theoretical that the wolves could actually be daemons incarnate given they can see and frighten the tutelaries (who are, in fact, temporarily leashed itty-bitty daemons). Odds are good the wolves are meant to be a part of theSW/TS dichotomy that we can see glimpses of throughout the book. Given the amount of gene talk in Legion, Abnett might have some kind of follow up on this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/193473-canis-helix/#findComment-2299712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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