Best anti-hoard unit on the Codex?

[Titan87]

So I am finishing out my Army list and am contemplating adding a 10 man assault squad with 2x Flamers and a Sgt with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. As it stands now it looks like my army will have trouble with hoard/large model count armies. So with the last 265 points I was wondering what do you guys think is the best anti hoard units in the vanilla codex? I was thinking a 10-man assault squad with dual flamers and Sgt with Upgrades (not sure what yet). What are your suggestions?

 

My current list has

Lysander

Librarian (possibly still figuring it out)

10x Assault Terminators

2x Land Raiders

3x Tactical with Rhinos (Sgt. with Powerfist)

Landspeeder squadron (2x MM+HF)

Landspeeder squadron (2x MM+HF)

 

that leaves me with about 265 points

[FlamingDeth]

I wouldn't really go anywhere near assault squads for the purpose of dealing with hordes. The major horde armies, orks and tyranids, are also big on close combat, and taking something that's alright in CC and charging right up to something that's good in CC doesn't seem like a good play. On the other hand, as long as one of those LRs in your list is a dedicated transport, you could use those points to get yourself two thunderfire cannons, or if both the LRs are dedicated transports (ie split the assault terminators into two squads of 5), then you could get three whirlwinds. Templates for everyone, yay!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

assault squad is a very reliable choice. but take another look at a thunderfire cannon

[Jackelope King]

Assault Squads are going to get mauled. I think we're going to have to wait for the Blood Angels Codex to see a decent Assault Marine army.

 

Thunderfires, especially as one-ofs, but in general too, are weak, and will roll over and die when faced with a stiff breeze.

 

Make those Land Raiders into Crusaders for starters. That'll help get you ready to deal with large numbers of enemy models. And you can never really go wrong with Dakka Predators (Autocannon w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons). If you have around 265 points, you can spam 3 and be in good shape.

 

You're already well mech'd up. You've got two rungs up on foot armies just because of that (with the exception of modern foot armies, like new Tyranids and Space Wolves).

 

The most important thing to remember: you don't have to kill an entire horde army to win. You just need to kill the threats.

[greatcrusade08]

On the other hand, as long as one of those LRs in your list is a dedicated transport, you could use those points to get yourself two thunderfire cannons, or if both the LRs are dedicated transports (ie split the assault terminators into two squads of 5), then you could get three whirlwinds. Templates for everyone, yay!

 

Nope cant do this, only one termy squad can have a dedicated transport, which means one will have to take HS slot.

2 thunderfires is a good idea..

Against orks the assault marines can do well, but less so against nids mainly due to initiative.

 

ever thought about some heavy flamer speeders?

[FlamingDeth]

On the other hand, as long as one of those LRs in your list is a dedicated transport, you could use those points to get yourself two thunderfire cannons, or if both the LRs are dedicated transports (ie split the assault terminators into two squads of 5), then you could get three whirlwinds. Templates for everyone, yay!

 

Nope cant do this, only one termy squad can have a dedicated transport, which means one will have to take HS slot.

2 thunderfires is a good idea..

Against orks the assault marines can do well, but less so against nids mainly due to initiative.

 

ever thought about some heavy flamer speeders?

Can't believe I've missed that. So much for that idea. Speaking of missing things, he's already got four heavy flamer speeders in his list. ;)

[DerekLee688]

I'd only run Jump troops with a chapy. However my HQ's of choice are Capt. and Librarians.

 

Typhoons are nice vs horde 3 Heavy bolter shots and two frag missles on the move. Two for 180pts with points left over, you put extra armor on your landraiders right?

[Koremu]

Whirlwind.

 

Light the blue touchpaper and stand well back.

[kaiserstole20]

An assault squad with 2 flamers can maul a horde, especially when paired with a chappy. I'm a big fan of the shoot then charge ability of the assault squad... just make sure you don't eliminate so many models that you are out of charge range.

[Xeonic]

It's worth noting that just giving your tacticals the basic free missile launcher (or cheap plasma cannon!) and free flamer makes them pretty handy for anti horde(optional combiflamer would give them moar template power), and you're probably taking tactical marines anyways. They can also fire flamer and combiflamer and charge those opponents who have furious charge as well, though they're not exactly as potent in assault as assault marines. ^_^

 

Dual flamer assault squad(w/ chaplain!) is great because it can also do it's own mop up, followed in effectiveness in my opinion by thunderfires, whirlywinds, dakka preds, and vindicators. Quad heavy weapon(HBs, MLs, or PCs) dev squads get an honorable mention, but they're the most static option of all. Still, with a good field of fire they can take a heavy toll, as long as they don't have to move anywhere.

 

3x dakka preds with or without optional storm bolters is a crazy amount of firepower on the cheaps, but it also would take up all three HS slots.

It's kind of a shame that they didn't make predators a squadron, three dakka preds in a squadron would be a no brainer for many lists. :lol:

[Deuce11]

Typhoon ML Land Speeders, perhaps.

[2500kgm3]

What do you think about LandSpeeders with two heavy bolters each? If I recall correctly, they are about the same price of a standard predator with autocannon and no sponsons, and you can get 3 in a squad, so the problem of using up too many organization chart slots is nullified. The heavy bolter is not a very good weapon nowadays, but you can get 6 fast-moving heavy bolters for the cost of roughly a tri-las predator.

[Justicar Valius]

Or how about 2 typhoons and 1 heavy bolter speeder to soak up the hits? 3 heavy bolters and 4 frag missiles (defensive weapons people!). or you can use the Krak to bring the pain to nids MCs or take out some transports. Plus they can stay 36" away without fear of melta.

[DarkGuard]

Assault Squad is pretty good for horde control. Yes against Orks and Nids they may not be ideal, but with 2 flamers, and hopefully some supporting fire they'll only be wiping up a few survivors in assault. Also, Guard can be a horde army, as can Tau (I'm pretty sure they both have some cheap Troops choices), and as these are big on shooting, you can easily outmatch them in combat. However, you do pretty much need to field 10 of these guys and they can get pricey compared to other choices.

 

Thunderfires are also very good for their points. 4 blast templates that wound on a 2+/3+ (dependent on ammo), with option to ignore cover or slow down units, yes please! Glass cannon though? Put it in a bolstered ruin and try and claim a cover save. The only bad thing is that they can't deploy high up.

 

Landspeeders of various flavours can also be very good. Double heavy bolter, heavy flamer, or my favourite the typhoon. 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter per speeder is pretty good, and they are cheaper than the TFC.

 

Also cheaper than the TFC are Whirlwinds and Dakka Preds. The Whirlwinds can hide and throw huge blast templates at hordes, while the Dakka Pred has good front armour and is direct shot, it comes down to how good your shooting rolls and scatter rolls are.

 

Also, you could use a Dev Squad with heavy bolters, not too expensive, and trust me, these guys will cut through any unit in the game that hasn't got an armour value. Sternguard are also a good choice, I'd run them with 2 heavy flamers to help hit more hordes and do more damage. And don't forget 4x flamer Command Squad, stick in a heavy bolter Razorback to add to the anti-horde.

 

In short there are a lot of good anti-horde choices. My favourites would be the Thunderfire Cannon, the Dev Squad and the Typhoons. All of these can sit back and unleash a large amount of anti-infantry firepower at the horde of your choice. But in the end it comes down to your playstyle, and of course, who you are playing.

[Giga]

MM/HF speeders do all the anti-horde job you need. Throwing 2-3 heavy flamer templates at a big horde unit is bound to destroy 60-80% of models in it.

 

Assault squads and whirlwinds can deal very well with hordes, but they're pretty shoddy otherwise, so not a good investment, I think.

 

Overall, there's a bunch of other stuff that helps with anti-horde;

 

- tac squads with flamer and combiflamer (very anti-horde killy, especially if you run vulkan)

- librarian with avenger (as a bonus, it also slaughters MEQ)

- sternguard (especially if you give them dual heavy flamers and have pedro to make them scoring)

- dakkapred, 2-3 of them even more so

- LR crusader (though I still think the godhammer is overall better)

- vindicator

 

 

 

 

 

If I were you, I'd just spend those 265 pts either on two dakkapreds and a combipred (combipred for long-range anti-tank, two dakkapreds for horde), or I'd go for a pair of vindicators for heavy target saturation.

[pueriexdeus]

Seems as though everybody is missing the best option out there.

 

Dev Sqd w/2x HB, 2x PC.

 

Facing hoards let them come to you. I have successfully used my noted Dev Sqd and have destroyed Nids, and Orks at range, avoided HtH and won the game. Another option is a Speeder Squadron of 3x AssCannon/HB.

 

Keep in mind that in a 5 turn game, well placed ranged firepower will force the opponent to loose troops each turn.

 

Most replies are of the MM/Flamer option, are you crazy? That puts you in CC range of the survivors and then negates any ranged fire support that might be available. Avoid HtH, let him come to you, and shoot the pants off of him.

[Bartali]

Assault squads can't assault there way out of a paper bag, against Orks or Tyranids they'll be killed in assault by troops choices costing a lot less then they do.

 

Space Marines kill horde armies by shooting them. A lot.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

LAND RAIDER REDEEMER anti horde anti everything

[Archon Yggrasil]

Several possibilities to consider:

 

Changing up one of the Land Raiders for a Redeemer (would allow for 6 Termies in the Raider, so Lysander could be part of that squad). The tactics for this almost requires you to Tank Shock the unit to line up the enemy squad how you want them, then flamer away, so be aware not to do this to Str 10 or melta-equipped enemies. This option also still leaves you 275 pts to spend for Sternguard which would be my choice for the squad that the Librarian leads, possibily in a Drop Pod for startle effect. Equipped with combi-weapons, (flamer or melta or some combination thereof) they can easily create a beachhead on one side of the board to allow a flanking maneuver an easier time of making it there.

 

 

Who are you planning to run Lysander with? Running him with the Assault Terminators would negate his Bolter Drill special rule and one of your best reasons for taking Lysander in the first place (and a real help against horde armies). I would recommend including 10 standard Terminators with Stormbolters and running Lysander with them, possibly Deep Striking the whole lot to bolster defenses wherever they are needed (20 rerolling bolter shots, and up to 4 frag missiles with cyclone launchers). I understand you only have 265 pts left, so I would also remove the Assault termies from one of the Land Raiders to get the points. Granted, this is a huge target, but they are tough enough to handle it.

 

Overall, you have a very good list, I'm just unsure of Lysander's involvement in it.

[pattison]

For anti-horde:

Land Speeder Typhoons

Land speeders w/ MM&HF

Whirlwind

or generally everything that lays a template.

 

About the assault squad:

It is a complementary unit. Do not even think about using them against CC specialized foes, but against anything non-cc they will shine.

Especially when accompanied by a chaplain.

AND they look extremely cool. :) Love 'em.

[ShinyRhino]

Overall, you have a very good list, I'm just unsure of Lysander's involvement in it.

 

I think Lysander gets put in Assault Terminator units just because he matches their armament. He's one of those odd units that gives a nice boost to a unit that he doesn't work well with. If you put him in a Tactical Terminator squad, he adds to their shooting, but otherwise stands around with his thumb up his backside. If you assault with the Tac Terminators after the stormbolter shots, he tends to be overkill in melee, and your unit ends up standing around waiting to be shot to pieces in the enemy turn. However, he does have that shield to soak a save or two with.

 

So, it's somewhat natural to want to put him in a unit with matching armament (hammer/shield), though you do lose his Bolter Drill bonuses. He's kind of like putting a wrecking ball on the front of a steamroller, lol.

[Archon Yggrasil]

I think Lysander gets put in Assault Terminator units just because he matches their armament. He's one of those odd units that gives a nice boost to a unit that he doesn't work well with. If you put him in a Tactical Terminator squad, he adds to their shooting, but otherwise stands around with his thumb up his backside. If you assault with the Tac Terminators after the stormbolter shots, he tends to be overkill in melee, and your unit ends up standing around waiting to be shot to pieces in the enemy turn. However, he does have that shield to soak a save or two with.

 

So, it's somewhat natural to want to put him in a unit with matching armament (hammer/shield), though you do lose his Bolter Drill bonuses. He's kind of like putting a wrecking ball on the front of a steamroller, lol.

 

That's just it, though. I'd want him to be the overkill that allows the squad to get out of assault quickly. I would use him and the squad as a buffer zone; deep strike him to mid-range, open up with all weapons and slowly move back to the main gunline as the horde approaches. I've seen elsewhere people saying Lysander gets easily bogged down in assault; not if he's in that Tac Termie squad! In this way, he and the squad will (likely) actually receive the charge that would otherwise crush a flank or a mid-line unit. Yes, he and the squad lose the advantage of number of attacks, but with the number of shots being laid down, you're probably better off with an extra round of shooting anyway. In the event that you have the opportunity to charge, they'll still likely wipe the floor with said unit in one round and leave it at that.

 

He could also accompany a large squad of Sternguard for a similar effect. In fact, Sternguard my be a better choice due to the special bolter rounds and bolstering their close combat ability.

 

He is like putting a wrecking ball in front of a steamroller which is precisely why I'm thinking he may be better suited bolstering other sections of the army. That being said, I have never fielded him, so this is purely speculation on my end. Tactically, he seems better with bolter weapons, in practice he may indeed be better ignoring those rules.

 

-Yggrasil

[DerekLee688]

I've been praising typhoons for their ability to crank out two frag templates and three heavy bolter shots on the move. Yesterday I played against necrons and marines at the same time. Krack missiles vs. 3+ & we'll be back= win. Krack vs. Terminators=win.

 

Long story short, you won't be sorry fielding these agianst ANY list. HB and frag ML vs horde and krack on MEQ/TEQ/MC/walker/transports. I can only imagine how happy I'll be to have these against Mech. Plague marines.

 

 

 

 

I love the HF/MM speeders too. They're only 70pts. each and have the best odds on getting that MM to what needs it. Yes, template range means CC range, but how hard is it to set up an assault unit (Tac's/Termies/Drea) to tie up the unit after you flame them? If you're still worried, you can fly the full 12" and still drop the template and then they only hit the speeder in melee on 6's. Faster the vehicle goes, the harder it is to punch.

[Excubitor]

I don't know if anyone else does this, but for me anti-horde is definitely the Thunderfire Cannon. Why? Subterranean rounds. Making those huge units (2-3 per thunderfire with good placements/lucky scatters) move through difficult terrain for turn after turn buys you extra time to whittle them down. 120 orc boyz coming at you in spearhead? easy as pie (plates ;) ). I don't know if this work for everyone, but it always makes things a little easier for me (killing bikers/jump troops on a roll of 1 is also fun).

[Brother Captain Josef]

So I am finishing out my Army list and am contemplating adding a 10 man assault squad with 2x Flamers and a Sgt with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. As it stands now it looks like my army will have trouble with hoard/large model count armies. So with the last 265 points I was wondering what do you guys think is the best anti hoard units in the vanilla codex? I was thinking a 10-man assault squad with dual flamers and Sgt with Upgrades (not sure what yet). What are your suggestions?

 

My current list has

Lysander

Librarian (possibly still figuring it out)

10x Assault Terminators

2x Land Raiders

3x Tactical with Rhinos (Sgt. with Powerfist)

Landspeeder squadron (2x MM+HF)

Landspeeder squadron (2x MM+HF)

 

that leaves me with about 265 points

 

Titan. I love my thinderfire and never leave home without it. It's sheer volume of fire thins hoards very nicely and you can usually give it a 3+ cover. But...

 

Looking at your list though I would recommend taking 2 vindicators. The fear factor of plonking those next to your dual landraiders makes for some very hard target allocation for your opponent as both dish out the hurt. (well ass termies in lr anyways!) <230 pts>

 

For the last 30 odd points I would load your tac sergeants with combi flamers. Your tacs are your real anti hoard anyways (and will most likely be unmolested as your opponent tries to drop lr and vindis but remember to use the either paired with one another or in support of something else. <30pts>

 

As an aside I agree that you should consider making one of your landraiders a crusader or redeemer just so you can stick lysader in it.