IA: Lions of Caliban

[Ecritter]

I think I may actually have to build and fight with this army. Guess I should come up with the rules for them. <_<

[Apothete]

I think that calling this the Final Draft might be a bit hasty.

 

Marked by a savage brutality, the great crusade of the Lions of Caliban moves throughout the Imperium not only battling its enemies but gathering knowledge in all its forms.

 

This is... incongruous.

 

It calls to mind an image of ferocious warrior-scribes, traveling from place to place with their pots of poison ink, sharpened quills, and snarling bookworms held back by chains. There's just something a little off about mingling the descriptions in such a short space. Plus, I think you're missing a comma.

 

It can be said that in its search for knowledge, the Lions walk a very thin line between learning and heresy. Only with the passage of time will their judgment be found.

 

More likely, their judgement will be found in the hands of another Chapter or the Ordos, especially if they're even remotely toeing the line of heresy. You can certainly keep secrets and conceal many things from others through the multifarious excuses and circumstances of the Astartes, from distance and independence to bluff aggression whenever someone comes into your figurative yard. That doesn't mean that it won't come out in some form and there will need to be a way to deal with it.

 

From the honored ranks of the Angels of Absolution and carrying the geneseed of the legendary Lion El'Jonson, a new Chapter of stalwart marines was formed in the 3rd founding in response to great losses during the 1st Black Crusade. Their mission, to take the war to the enemies of the Imperium. So was born the Lions of Caliban Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

Clunky.

 

Curt.

 

Clumsy.

 

Commander Casius, Supreme Grand Master of the new chapter, immediately sent the fleet to battle the dark forces of Chaos. The number and strength of the Chaos Marines they encountered in the Uralan system proved much more then he had expected. His poor planning and inexperience nearly lost the chapter on their first campaign. As it was, a full third of the fleet and nearly half the marines perished and the Lions of Caliban were forced to fall back and regroup. Accepting the blame fully, Casius vowed that never again would a Lion fall because of poor planning and bad intelligence.

 

Firstly, your Chapter Master very nearly steals the name of Ortan Cassius, one of the most famous figures in the Astartes. It's not as if it's even a name buried in a Black Library novel or some obscure bit of previous-edition fluff. This isn't necessarily a problem but it's something to be aware of.

 

Secondly, this is an amazingly common conceit and one which is typically done poorly and justified even more weakly. You're barely doing better here, in that you have a ridiculous number of casualties in their first deployment, which sets a terrible precedent in the eyes of the Imperium, who likely knew that your Marines were off to face this particular threat because they're the ones who would have notified the Lions in the first place. How do the Lions recover their lost geneseed, the materials they probably have little to no spares of, the ships which have now been destroyed, and so on? Where do these replacements come from and why are they given, considering the enormity of their failure?

 

What happens when they don't repulse the Chaos incursion? Who has to clean up the mess and what repercussions does that bring? How many worlds are lost?

 

You have a hugely gaping plot hole here purely for the sake of setting up a doctrine that you want for the Chapter, without justifying or supporting it.

 

And so the path was set for the chapter. Small bands of Scouts would always act as a vanguard and probe areas, interrogating the locals before the main chapter forces entered the field to deal the killing blow. The information gathered by these Scout units would save many marines and provide the much needed intelligence to ensure victory. The Scouts are reserved for this duty and seldom used for direct combat. This setup served the Lions for thousands of years, probe, interrogate, and then attack in force.

 

Beginning a sentence with "and" or "but" is only alright in informal writing. This is not informal writing.

 

Also, how does having the Scouts probing ahead of the main force set the Lions at odds with the majority of the Astartes? They're already intended to be recon and support are they not? There's also the small problem that you're ignoring the Dark Angels' use of highly mobile forces in the form of the Ravenwing, which hasn't really been sufficiently explained in this context, especially when the Angels of Absolution are known for close cooperation with that very portion of Dark Angels. They're practically an extension of the dedicated forces that hunt the Fallen, which you make no mention of so far. Why? How do they escape this responsibility given the choice of Chapter that founds them and the source of their geneseed?

 

Over time, due either to ingenuity or necessity, the Scouts began to gather information by killing and devouring parts of enemy troops and even locals that may have useful information, utilizing the Omophagea implant to quickly learn what they needed. Although this practice was frowned upon, it was recognized that gathering information in this manner was more efficient and the practice not only continued but flourished within the chapter.

 

This part is useful but it could just as easily be rewritten to become a practice of the Lions' own Ravenwing, thus dodging some of the fluff issues that you've raised. However, I would argue that they wouldn't just choose random parts of their victms to consume, choosing instead something symbolic like the heart or the brain. The latter would even provide a semi-plausible excuse for having gained the knowledge.

 

As the centuries passed, those Scouts became full battle brothers and later sergeants, masters, and even the grand masters composing the Inner Circle. They carried the practice with them. Many secret rites and rituals grew from the practice. Within the great chapels of of the fleet's Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, gruesome trophies of battle adorn the walls, and the many chambers and passages of the inner sancta are littered with bones. The Lions are careful to keep this hidden from the prying eyes of visitors.

 

Why keep it hidden?

 

There are a large number of Chapters that make use of the omophagea and it's obviously intended to serve this function, else the Emperor would not have included it in the design of Astartes physiology. The Mortifactors, Soul Drinkers, Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, and any number of others practice the same tactic with varying degrees of ritualization, and there's already a ton of things that a Dark Angels successor is going to have to be hiding. Why add to that without good reason?

 

Only a few centuries after the inception of the chapter a strange phenomena began to appear within its ranks, as the chapter was engaged in battle. Battle brothers would fly into an uncontrollable rage, throw down their ranged weapons and rush headlong into hand to hand combat with enemy forces.

 

Better not let the Mechanicus know that they're throwing weapons down with such a lack of respect, then. That wouldn't go over well, especially not if you're carrying some eight thousand year old relic like a plasma gun.

 

Also, has nobody considered something akin to a shoulder strap or the chains of the Black Templar? Do they lose all ability to think practically after these rages as well, since someone with even a modicum of tactical acumen would realize that you might want to have your gun when the bloodrage has worn off?

 

At first, it was a rarity. One or two brothers would be overcome by the fury, but as the centuries passed it has become much more prevalent. This, as much as anything else, has added to the chapter’s reputation of savage brutality in combat. So slowly the change occurred that it has yet to send up any red flags or cause undue concern within the Administratum. The chapter’s first company was renamed to the Feral Lions, reorganized and rearmed to take advantage of this fury.

 

Just as I've been asking so far, I'm going to find myself echoing the same question: Why?

 

Why is this seen as an advantage rather than a terrible flaw, since they're running heedlessly into close combat without a hint of concern for victory or even the ability to continue fighting once the foe immediately in front of them is dead? Sure, it's a berserkergang and that's a cool visual, but it's stupid when considered from the standpoint of fighting a ground war against foes who might, I don't know, have lots of guns and explosives. Charging headlong into a gunline with your power sword over your head is brave and heroic, but it doesn't do anything worthwhile if the foes that you're trying to gut then shred you with gauss flayers, overwhelming dakka, or the warp-touched inferno bolts of a certain traitor Legion.

 

Even if the Ordo Hereticus doesn't know about this, does the Adeptus Mechanicus? Is it a flaw in the geneseed? If not, why do the Lions permit it to happen when it should be seen as a horrible throwback to the losses that supposedly shaped them, since it's a huge risk with relatively little payback when not in the proper circumstances?

 

How does it jive with their focus on being well informed warrior-scholars? Does it not, in fact, completely clash with the idea of careful scouting, moving only when you know what's ahead, and attempting to control the battlefield?

 

Meeting heavy resistance, a squad of Feral Lions supported by two squads of Imperial Guards fought a hard won battle with a seemingly unending swarm of genestealers. It was a quick and dirty fight, two of the Feral Lions and half the Guards fell to the Tyranids.

 

It was both unending and quick? Really?

 

The Grand Masters of the Inner Circle fear that further incidents of this nature would surely draw unneeded, and unwanted, attention on the Chapter. In response, they are reluctant to deploy the Feral Lions in situations where they would be forced to fight alongside those outside the chapter.

 

Uh...

 

Would this not be the final proof that this mutation is something to be culled rather than husbanded as some kind of siege weapon? They turned on their allies just because they ran out of bodies. You know who else does that?

 

Khornites.

 

The Ordos would roast every one of the Lions alive if word of this ever, ever escapes, and that means that your Chapter's already on the way to damnation because they're concealing a propensity to murder innocents and those who fight alongside them.

 

Now led by Supreme Grand Master Traegen, the Lions of Caliban are organized in a fashion similar to the Dark Angels with only a few significant differences. Other then the changes listed below, the chapter organization is a close copy to the Dark Angels.

 

This is poorly formatted and far too informal. It's also basically turning your Chapter into BloodDarkWolf Angels.

 

Where do you place the Deathwing if your first Company is the ill-advised Feral Lions? Why would a Chapter descended from one of the most dogmatic, tightly controlled lines of succession ditch the highly successful formation that's inherent in the Ravenwing? Keep in mind that you set yourself up as being trained by a Chapter that's basically Ravenwing Two: Electric Boogaloo.

 

Although listed as the 10th Company, the Scouts, also called Cubs, act more independently than any other company in the chapter. Each slightly oversized squad is deployed aboard a small ship and venture far out from the fleet, always searching for enemies for the chapter to strike. The Scouts seldom take part in the chapter's attacks, their mission is one of intelligence gathering.

 

I ask again: Why the break from the Ravenwing?

 

Also, who hunts the Fallen? You have yet to mention them at all and there's no way that the Angels of Absolution would have let a successor of theirs ignore this secret, shameful duty.

 

The combat doctrine of the Lions of Caliban has been well honed over thousands of years. Bands of Scouts, operating from small ships forward of the fleet undertake scouting operations, always precede a Lion attack. Using the information gathered by the Scouts the fleet presses the attack, normally en masse.

 

See above.

 

Also, you're missing another comma.

 

Every generation of the Lions is marked by a rise in savage brutality in combat. It is not uncommon for a large number to fall under the righteous fury and charge headlong into enemy formations, tearing at them with close combat weapons or even their bare hands.

 

So they're basically losing control of themselves, turning into World Eaters Lite, and becoming something which is completely at odds with your stated mission of being intelligent and fighting with information? The Chapter really sees no problem with letting more and more of their number slip away?

 

How large is the First Company now if they're becoming ever more savage and that's where they get stashed?

 

Also, this whole section is too curt, too uninformative, and not all that different from a Codex Chapter, which paradoxically makes saying more seem unnneccesary. As it stands, the only deviation is that they use a special Company as linebreakers.

 

Much like the Angels of Absolution, their parent chapter, the Lions revere knowledge. Verging on heresy however, knowledge is everything to the Lions, and sharing it amongst the others in the chapter is the highest order. Outside the chapter, only the Emperor is worthy of this knowledge. The Inner Circle looks to the day that they can present him the tribute of the combined knowledge the chapter has accumulated.

 

I'd believe this a bit more if you hadn't just spent the majority of the writeup telling us how savage and brutal the Chapter is becoming as it ages, and they've had millenia to become so. If every generation is getting worse, they're going to be turning to the worship of Khorne before much longer and I have a hard time believing that anyone but the highest echelons of the Chapter would even care about their original mission. For that matter, given that it's taken until this point in the writeup to so much as mention them, I'm amazed that they so much as acknowledge that the Fallen even exist. No part of their organization, combat doctrine, origins, structure, or any other aspect of the Chapter seems to admit that they have a duty to the Dark Angels, that they participate in the hunt, or that they see it as something important to honor.

 

Also like the Angels of Absolution, the Lions believe themselves to be pure from the taint of the Fallen. They see these fallen Dark Angels as no more then any other Chaos Marine and treat them as such. Out of respect for their Dark Angel fore bearers and seeing that only the Emperor is worthy of their knowledge, the Lions maintain the secret of the Fallen.

 

Why do the Lions feel that they're worthy of the knowledge if the only entity aside from themselves who deserves it is the Emperor? Is that not placing themselves on even footing with Him on Terra, which is itself a kind of heresy?

 

Several times over the centuries, the Lions have diverted from their mission to pursue rumors of relics and long forgotten knowledge. Many Lions have readily given their lives to capture even the smallest bit of this knowledge. The Chaplains of the Lions direct these hunts and, aboard the Battle Barge Venator, catalog and protect the relics and sacred texts once found.

 

What a shame that they don't share this same zeal for the holiest duty of their immediate progenitor and the Chapter that raised them. I wonder how they've managed to survive this long without even paying lip service to the promises that would have been extracted from them, but which you've conveniently ignored.

 

Why would the Dark Angels and the Angels of Absolution let them not even participate in the more proper hunt? How do the other Dak Angel successors act towards them, considering that you've basically set the Lions up to ignore their shared purpose in the hunt for information?

 

Does the proscription against sharing this secret gathering extend to the much more powerful and established Chapters who would be looking suspiciously at them, possibly even forcing the secret out of the relative upstart? If so, how are they going to resist if a Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain decides to come for a visit?

 

Like every other chapter, the Lions gather their honored dead and return them to the fleet. The precious geneseed is then harvested so the chapter can grow and replace the lost. As the chapter grew more savage, it became common practice for the bodies to then be consumed by his Lion brothers. In this way, the lost are completed reabsorbed in the chapter.

 

This needs more development.

 

It's possibly the only fitting thing I've seen since the Origins section, in that it's a much more visceral and animalistic way to gain knowledge.

 

Early in the chapter's history the Lions also began to bring the enemies dead back to the fleet as well. At first it was simply to harvest teeth, claws and even skulls to be used as trophies to celebrate their victory. As with their fallen brothers, it also later became common to devour the bodies of their enemies in great feasts.

 

See above.

 

Mock battles once used to practice close combat have changed to more savage tests of strength. Its now common to find nude Lions locked in hand to hand combat. Normally the fights end in first blood, but as the fury become more prevalent its becoming more common for brothers for fight for hours and for the fights to last until one Lion lies dead.

 

"Holy crap, we lost a lot of Brothers because of a lack of proper forewarning and intelligence gathering and we now seek to know as much as possible. Let's beat each other to death to prove..."

 

Finish the above sentence, please.

 

Originally the battle cry for the chapter was ‘For Knowledge’, but has changed over time to angry animalistic roars preceding the attack.

 

Appropriate, considering they're devolving into beasts themselves.

 

Oh, and as a final note, since I didn't see a good place to stick this since it's a criticism of a sidebar... What would possess the Chapter to give someone who's become an unthinking berzerker a set of Tactial Dreadnought Armor? Granted, it means that you might survive a little longer as you stomp towards the foe shooting at you, but it's probably better employed by someone who isn't a psychopath that can't even hold onto a gun.

[Ecritter]

Thanks for the comments, I have answers to most ... and some rewriting to do for others.

 

Will work on it and get back to you.

[Ecritter]

This is... incongruous.

 

It calls to mind an image of ferocious warrior-scribes, traveling from place to place with their pots of poison ink, sharpened quills, and snarling bookworms held back by chains. There's just something a little off about mingling the descriptions in such a short space. Plus, I think you're missing a comma.

 

Agreed, but it goes perfectly with the idea of a Chapter completely at odds with itself. They are a contridiction.

 

I'll work on the comma.

 

More likely, their judgement will be found in the hands of another Chapter or the Ordos, especially if they're even remotely toeing the line of heresy. You can certainly keep secrets and conceal many things from others through the multifarious excuses and circumstances of the Astartes, from distance and independence to bluff aggression whenever someone comes into your figurative yard. That doesn't mean that it won't come out in some form and there will need to be a way to deal with it.

 

When and from whom their judgement comes is yet to be seen. The whole idea of this Chapter is Space Marines that most assuredly will sometime in their future be Chaos Marines .... until then they are a brutally effective tool of the Imperium.

 

Firstly, your Chapter Master very nearly steals the name of Ortan Cassius, one of the most famous figures in the Astartes. It's not as if it's even a name buried in a Black Library novel or some obscure bit of previous-edition fluff. This isn't necessarily a problem but it's something to be aware of.

 

Secondly, this is an amazingly common conceit and one which is typically done poorly and justified even more weakly. You're barely doing better here, in that you have a ridiculous number of casualties in their first deployment, which sets a terrible precedent in the eyes of the Imperium, who likely knew that your Marines were off to face this particular threat because they're the ones who would have notified the Lions in the first place. How do the Lions recover their lost geneseed, the materials they probably have little to no spares of, the ships which have now been destroyed, and so on? Where do these replacements come from and why are they given, considering the enormity of their failure?

 

What happens when they don't repulse the Chaos incursion? Who has to clean up the mess and what repercussions does that bring? How many worlds are lost?

 

You have a hugely gaping plot hole here purely for the sake of setting up a doctrine that you want for the Chapter, without justifying or supporting it.

 

Firstly, names are just names and somewhere in the universe someone will have a similiar name. Its not name dropping ... they have nothing in common as far as I know.

 

Secondly, I'm told this is pretty standard doctrine so its not to set what the Chapter does ... just to show their poor leadership in the beginning. The losses were heavy, but considering they were replacing a Chapter that was completely lost during the 1st Black Crusade ... I'd say it was understandable. Losses were heavy in those days ... Legions were gone and the smaller Chapter concept was, relatively, new.

 

Also, how does having the Scouts probing ahead of the main force set the Lions at odds with the majority of the Astartes? They're already intended to be recon and support are they not? There's also the small problem that you're ignoring the Dark Angels' use of highly mobile forces in the form of the Ravenwing, which hasn't really been sufficiently explained in this context, especially when the Angels of Absolution are known for close cooperation with that very portion of Dark Angels. They're practically an extension of the dedicated forces that hunt the Fallen, which you make no mention of so far. Why? How do they escape this responsibility given the choice of Chapter that founds them and the source of their geneseed?

 

The Dark Angels and their 3 2nd Founding Successors, are called the Unforgiven. Not seen any fluff that says any Subsequent successor Chapters are. From the fluff I have read, the AoA consider themselves free of the curse of the Fallen and act in conjunction with the DAs as a matter of loyality only.

 

As to the Ravenwing ... the LoC have just as mobile a force with their 2nd Company. And since its not a requirement of DA successors to have them I don't see a problem.

 

Why keep it hidden?

 

There are a large number of Chapters that make use of the omophagea and it's obviously intended to serve this function, else the Emperor would not have included it in the design of Astartes physiology. The Mortifactors, Soul Drinkers, Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, and any number of others practice the same tactic with varying degrees of ritualization, and there's already a ton of things that a Dark Angels successor is going to have to be hiding. Why add to that without good reason?

 

Perhaps they know its a sign of things to come.

 

Better not let the Mechanicus know that they're throwing weapons down with such a lack of respect, then. That wouldn't go over well, especially not if you're carrying some eight thousand year old relic like a plasma gun.

 

Also, has nobody considered something akin to a shoulder strap or the chains of the Black Templar? Do they lose all ability to think practically after these rages as well, since someone with even a modicum of tactical acumen would realize that you might want to have your gun when the bloodrage has worn off?

 

When the Fury wears off they simply pick up their weapons ... cause the enemy is dead. The Fury doesn't end until then.

 

Just as I've been asking so far, I'm going to find myself echoing the same question: Why?

 

Why is this seen as an advantage rather than a terrible flaw, since they're running heedlessly into close combat without a hint of concern for victory or even the ability to continue fighting once the foe immediately in front of them is dead? Sure, it's a berserkergang and that's a cool visual, but it's stupid when considered from the standpoint of fighting a ground war against foes who might, I don't know, have lots of guns and explosives. Charging headlong into a gunline with your power sword over your head is brave and heroic, but it doesn't do anything worthwhile if the foes that you're trying to gut then shred you with gauss flayers, overwhelming dakka, or the warp-touched inferno bolts of a certain traitor Legion.

 

Even if the Ordo Hereticus doesn't know about this, does the Adeptus Mechanicus? Is it a flaw in the geneseed? If not, why do the Lions permit it to happen when it should be seen as a horrible throwback to the losses that supposedly shaped them, since it's a huge risk with relatively little payback when not in the proper circumstances?

 

How does it jive with their focus on being well informed warrior-scholars? Does it not, in fact, completely clash with the idea of careful scouting, moving only when you know what's ahead, and attempting to control the battlefield?

 

It shows how every member of the Chapter has changed over the centuries. Yeah, early on it may have been seen as a flaw. Now its seen as an advantage, cause having madmen rushing at the enemy seems to 'affect' them. And it wins battles. Refer back to first, when I said they were a contridiction ... even to their own beliefs (I think I even mention that in the Belief Section).

 

It was both unending and quick? Really?

 

Yes. The hoard seemed unending, but the fight was over quickly. Only killing alot and in a hurry could manage this.

 

Would this not be the final proof that this mutation is something to be culled rather than husbanded as some kind of siege weapon? They turned on their allies just because they ran out of bodies. You know who else does that?

 

Khornites.

 

The Ordos would roast every one of the Lions alive if word of this ever, ever escapes, and that means that your Chapter's already on the way to damnation because they're concealing a propensity to murder innocents and those who fight alongside them.

 

Sane men would know better, but since the insanity reaches to the very top of the Chapter ... its hard to make sane decisions about this.

 

Where do you place the Deathwing if your first Company is the ill-advised Feral Lions? Why would a Chapter descended from one of the most dogmatic, tightly controlled lines of succession ditch the highly successful formation that's inherent in the Ravenwing? Keep in mind that you set yourself up as being trained by a Chapter that's basically Ravenwing Two: Electric Boogaloo.

 

The Deathwing are simply Veterans, and are always fielded in Terminator armor. The Ravenwing is the mobile part. I have replaced both with the Black Lions. Highly mobile veterans. And yes using only jump packs and dropping in on the enemy is mobile.

 

I ask again: Why the break from the Ravenwing?

 

Also, who hunts the Fallen? You have yet to mention them at all and there's no way that the Angels of Absolution would have let a successor of theirs ignore this secret, shameful duty.

 

Scouts are simply scouts.

 

Ravenwing was not scouts, read above response.

 

The Fallen. All I've read about the AoA they do not actively hunt the Fallen, they see them as just Chaos Marines and are themselves pure of the incident in their eyes. This is the Chapter that training the LoC, not the DAs.

 

So they're basically losing control of themselves, turning into World Eaters Lite, and becoming something which is completely at odds with your stated mission of being intelligent and fighting with information? The Chapter really sees no problem with letting more and more of their number slip away?

 

How large is the First Company now if they're becoming ever more savage and that's where they get stashed?

 

Also, this whole section is too curt, too uninformative, and not all that different from a Codex Chapter, which paradoxically makes saying more seem unnneccesary. As it stands, the only deviation is that they use a special Company as linebreakers.

 

That's just how they are seen and used in the Chapter. Due to losses, they stay at around 100 I'd say.

 

Fact is, its a deviation from Codex and has to be mentioned as I'm told.

 

not really a quote, just gonna cover all your AoA comments.

 

Nowhere does it say that successor chapters take part in the hunt past the 2nd founding.

 

The fact is that near the beginning the LoC were very similiar to the AoA, but as time has progressed they have started to collectively lose their minds.

 

In combat they are brutal and animalistic, but the chapter still maintains its goal of collecting knowledge. As I've stated before, they're a contridiction.

 

eating people

 

Will work on adding some more to this.

 

Oh, and as a final note, since I didn't see a good place to stick this since it's a criticism of a sidebar... What would possess the Chapter to give someone who's become an unthinking berzerker a set of Tactial Dreadnought Armor? Granted, it means that you might survive a little longer as you stomp towards the foe shooting at you, but it's probably better employed by someone who isn't a psychopath that can't even hold onto a gun.

 

I've not mentioned Dreads anywhere in the IA. Assuming that they are Codex adherent in everyway other then the ways mentioned in the Organiztion section, I'd have to say Dreads are treated the same as they are in every other Codex chapter.

[Ecritter]

Question, would it be fair to say that Casius was stripped of leadership after the first encounter?

[Ace Debonair]

Oh, and as a final note, since I didn't see a good place to stick this since it's a criticism of a sidebar... What would possess the Chapter to give someone who's become an unthinking berzerker a set of Tactial Dreadnought Armor? Granted, it means that you might survive a little longer as you stomp towards the foe shooting at you, but it's probably better employed by someone who isn't a psychopath that can't even hold onto a gun.

 

I've not mentioned Dreads anywhere in the IA. Assuming that they are Codex adherent in everyway other then the ways mentioned in the Organiztion section, I'd have to say Dreads are treated the same as they are in every other Codex chapter.

 

Tactical Dreadnought Armour is the posh name for Terminator armour. ;)

 

 

Also, has nobody considered something akin to a shoulder strap or the chains of the Black Templar? Do they lose all ability to think practically after these rages as well, since someone with even a modicum of tactical acumen would realize that you might want to have your gun when the bloodrage has worn off?

 

When the Fury wears off they simply pick up their weapons ... cause the enemy is dead. The Fury doesn't end until then.

 

Good point though, having the more insightful members chain their weapons to them would be a nice touch.

Instead of having to run so many metres back through angry enemy fire to pick up their gun or whatever, you know? :tu:

 

 

Casius could probably be stripped of command. You could even have him step down because he feels he has shamed the chapter an maybe a quick line about him admitting he was guided by 'rage first, knowledge second' as a sort of horrible forewarning of what happens to the chapter.

[Ecritter]

Sorry Tactical Dreadnought armor ... my mistake. Well, since everyone is comparing this to the Death Company of the Blood Angels ... it makes no sense for them to give Terminator armor to Marines with the rage but they do. What I'm saying is ... it is insane to do it, and thats the point. The whole Chapter is going insane.

 

And chaining the weps to the Marines is a good idea, now I have to decide if I'll add it in or just stick to the insane people don't always do the smart thing excuse.

[Octavulg]

Ecritter, there are a bunch of Chapters mentioned in Codex: Dark Angels that are not Second Founding and hunt the Fallen. The Disciples of Caliban are dedicated to hunting down Cypher, in point of fact.

 

It used to work the way you mention, but it has since changed.

[Ace Debonair]

And chaining the weps to the Marines is a good idea, now I have to decide if I'll add it in or just stick to the insane people don't always do the smart thing excuse.

 

Add it in. :blink:

 

You have too much insane, not enough smart.

In a chapter that goes insane by trying to get smarter, at least a few nods in the direction of sense will help give a sense that they learned something before going mad. :sick:

 

EDIT:

Well, since everyone is comparing this to the Death Company of the Blood Angels

 

Actually, you did that, and on a different thread.

I pointed out your 'rage' idea was something else entirely. ;)

[Apothete]

Ecritter, I came to critique your thread because you asked me to decide if it was ready for submission to the Librarium. As succinctly as I can put it, you're not very close at this point for a number of reasons - fluff, structure, and reasoning among them.

 

After the headbutting the last time I got involved in one of your threads, I'm going to state outright that I'm not willing to fight you on this. If you seriously want this writeup to be ready then take the advice that you asked for. I'm not telling you these things to break you down or trash your concept, but the sad truth is that I came to the thread with no preconceptions about the purpose of this Chapter, never having read it before, and the conclusion I came to was completely different from the one that you say that you want people to take from it.

 

As a writer, your job isn't to please yourself so much as it is to communicate clearly to others. Else, why not just keep a diary?

 

In any case, I'm going to try again. If you don't want my criticism, kindly say so and we can both part ways without this turning ugly.

 

Agreed, but it goes perfectly with the idea of a Chapter completely at odds with itself. They are a contridiction.

 

No, it really doesn't.

 

I spent a lot of my morning writing you out as cogent and detailed a critique as I could so that you could see just where your justifications fall through and how the writeup will look when broken down critically. A single line of unjustified, unreasoned response is frankly insulting.

 

While I understand what it is that you want this article to show people, it currently doesn't.

 

When and from whom their judgement comes is yet to be seen. The whole idea of this Chapter is Space Marines that most assuredly will sometime in their future be Chaos Marines .... until then they are a brutally effective tool of the Imperium.

 

Actually, they're psychopaths who kill their allies and probably will turn on each other before long, moving beyond the "honor" duels where they already murder. Between the consumption of sentient flesh and their increasingly animalistic natures, they're not gently meandering towards damnation but sprinting in leaps and bounds for the bottom. A more subtle approach to this would leave me more room to grant you even a modicum of agreement but you're really not paingting the Lions as degenerating Loyalists.

 

They're already damned in everything but spoken belief. As we all know, actions speak louder.

 

Secondly, I'm told this is pretty standard doctrine so its not to set what the Chapter does ... just to show their poor leadership in the beginning. The losses were heavy, but considering they were replacing a Chapter that was completely lost during the 1st Black Crusade ... I'd say it was understandable. Losses were heavy in those days ... Legions were gone and the smaller Chapter concept was, relatively, new.

 

This justification doesn't even make sense, though.

 

How could it possibly be "pretty standard doctrine" that the Imperium looks the other way when a new Chapter completely, utterly fails at its first mission and has to requisition enormous amounts of material to replace what they've lost? You're costing the Mechanicus materials and manufactorum runtime that could be used to supply others who aren't failing, which makes the Lions a horrible investment. I could almost believe it if you'd had them do some kind of atonement for their stunning lack of skill, but you haven't even presented a course of events that's remotely plausible.

 

Also, don't think I didn't notice that you dodged some of the important questions that haven't been answered. Who had to clean up their mess? What was the cost in men and worlds when they failed to defeat the Traitors? Why was this even greater waste ignored by the Adeptus Terra? How are they going to replace their lost ships? Where is the genseed going to come from? How do they explain the sudden need for enough geneseed to replace hundreds of fallen Battle Brothers? What about the armor and other wargear?

 

Without some ridiculously powerful ally, and a progenitor Chapter likely wouldn't take all that much pity on such an abject failure, who's shielding them from the after effects? Wouldn't the sensible response to be strike their colors and try again with a new Chapter, since that's what the Lions were created to be? Why not move them away from such a hotly contested warzone and into some backwater where they might be able to find their feet fighting scattered Eldar pirates or something equally minor, rather than costing the Imperium untold men, equipment, and ancient technology?

 

Oh, and if you think that the Chapters were a "new" concept, the Third Founding was almost exactly a thousand years after the Second. That's plenty of time to have figured out basic things like what to do with one that can't do their jobs.

 

The Dark Angels and their 3 2nd Founding Successors, are called the Unforgiven. Not seen any fluff that says any Subsequent successor Chapters are. From the fluff I have read, the AoA consider themselves free of the curse of the Fallen and act in conjunction with the DAs as a matter of loyality only.

 

Certainly more were created than are recorded, and all those Chapters are still extant to this day. These Chapters collectively call themselves the Unforgiven, and they pursue their own shadowy agenda , forever seeking to absolve themselves of the Dark Angel's ancient sin.

-p.73, Codex: Dark Angels, 4th Edition

 

Each of the Unforgiven Chapters follows the Dark Angels' pattern of organization closely, and each has its own Inner Circle. They all have formations which are similar to the Deathwing and Ravenwing Companies, although they are not named as such. Some of these Chapters use special uniforms and markings for the units, while others do not.

-p.73, Codex: Dark Angels, 4th Edition

 

The Angels of Absolution are known to have close ties with the Dark Angels Chapter, and have on numerous occasions launched joint operations with the progenitor formation. The Angels of Absolution Chapter's 2nd Company has worked closely with the Dark Angel's Ravenwing, pooling the two Chapter's resources in orde to hunt far and wide for the Fallen.

 

...

 

In doctrine and temperament the Angels of Absolution are very close to the Dark Angels. The two Chapter's teachings are largely consisten - the only noted divergence lies in the emphasis placed on the Chapter's guilt concering the Fallen.

-p.75, Codex: Dark Angels, 4th Edition

 

So, is citing the Codex at you enough or do I need to pull up my own arguments that you already disregarded?

 

Perhaps they know its a sign of things to come.

 

That's nonsensical.

 

Why would a Loyalist Chapter dedicated to the careful accrual and misering of knowledge, so spooked by a catastrophic deployment that they won't go into combat without first extensively scouting, see animalistic fury as something not to be resisted? You're meta-justifying this because you want to have both characteristics but there's just no consistency between the statements that you're making and the early description of the Chapter itself. Without outside influence of the sort that makes people get bilious at Ben Counter, this just isn't believable as it stands.

 

When the Fury wears off they simply pick up their weapons ... cause the enemy is dead. The Fury doesn't end until then.

 

See above.

 

It shows how every member of the Chapter has changed over the centuries. Yeah, early on it may have been seen as a flaw. Now its seen as an advantage, cause having madmen rushing at the enemy seems to 'affect' them. And it wins battles. Refer back to first, when I said they were a contridiction ... even to their own beliefs (I think I even mention that in the Belief Section).

 

You can say whatever you like. You cold even keep the writeup exactly as it is.

 

That isn't the same thing as creating something which makes an ounce of sense, which this writeup currently doesn't. Yes, I can read the segments where you make the assertion that they're a condtradiction. That's hard to argue and it's not really the issue here.

 

Instead, what I keep trying to goad, cajole, urge, and perhaps even browbeat you into doing is to actually provide a reason that ties those two completely disparate concepts together for reasons other than fiat.

 

Yes. The hoard seemed unending, but the fight was over quickly. Only killing alot and in a hurry could manage this.

 

Then you need to reword that section, because it doesn't say that anything seemed like it took forever. It says that it did.

 

Even if you do so, though, it still doesn't make that much sense and feels like puffery.

 

Sane men would know better, but since the insanity reaches to the very top of the Chapter ... its hard to make sane decisions about this.

 

This is a fiat explanation.

 

There is no reason that the early Lions wouldn't have purged or at least isolated the first of their number to show this bizarre behavior. It's not good enough to just say that you're going somewhere with the story, you have to take us there.

 

The Deathwing are simply Veterans, and are always fielded in Terminator armor. The Ravenwing is the mobile part. I have replaced both with the Black Lions. Highly mobile veterans. .

 

You know, for someone trying to lecture me in how the Dark Angels conduct their business, you seem to be making a lot of factual errors.

 

The Deathwing are not "merely veterans," they're the secret elite of the Chapter and party to at least some of the secret of the Fallen. The regular, rank and file Brothers don't much, if anything, of what happened on Caliban and afterwards. Being chosen for the Deathwatch is a great honor and it comes with the even greater responsibilty of being told about the sins of the past, while also being given the chance to do something about it. That's one of the primary roles for the Interrogator-Chaplains and senior members of the Deathwatch who may be deployed into other Companies, in fact... They're always watching for those with the skill, mettle, and flexibility to come to understand what must be done without betraying the secrecy that is so paramount to their great quest.

 

And yes using only jump packs and dropping in on the enemy is mobile

 

It's also a pointless deviation which you give no reasoning or justification for, whereas there's a deep and storied tradition in both the Dark Angels and your chosen progenitors for the use of bikes and speeders.

 

I said it in the first critique and I suppose I'm going to have to keep doing it here: Why?

 

Explain to us why this change was made and what useful purpose it serves that the old doctrine did. How does it affect their relations with the Angels of Absolution, who adhere to the traditional ways? What do the other Unforgiven think of it?

 

Ravenwing was not scouts, read above response.

 

I'm trying to decide if you're trolling me or just haven't read much about the Dark Angels.

 

The Ravenwing are not capital-S Scouts because they're not uninitiated Marines who have yet to complete their training and be brought into a line company, but they are little-s scouts because their primary function is to seek out the Unforgiven and coordinate the capture or destruction of those who can be found. I could break out the codex and cite it again but I really shouldn't have to on so basic a point of doctrine.

 

Fact is, its a deviation from Codex and has to be mentioned as I'm told.

 

Great, you mentioned it.

 

Now comes the more difficult and vastly more important part where you justify and explain the change in their organization. You've yet to do that aside from making tautological references to existing statements.

 

Nowhere does it say that successor chapters take part in the hunt past the 2nd founding.

 

See my earlier citation.

 

In combat they are brutal and animalistic, but the chapter still maintains its goal of collecting knowledge. As I've stated before, they're a contridiction.

 

Yes, they are. Sadly, right now, they're a poorly explained and rationalized one despite the fact that there's actually some gems buried in the dirt. You have good ideas contained in the text but you're weighing them down unbearably with this refusal to come up with good links between the past and the present.

[Ecritter]

Apothete I really appreciate your critique and have worked hard on a new revision to deal with several of the issues. Please don't take my responses as arguments, I was simply trying to convey my thoughts and original ideas as to how I see the Chapter.

 

Major rewrite posted, C&C welcome.

[Walter Payton]

Apothete I really appreciate your critique and have worked hard on a new revision to deal with several of the issues. Please don't take my responses as arguments, I was simply trying to convey my thoughts and original ideas as to how I see the Chapter.

 

That isn't how it comes across, sorry.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Apothete I really appreciate your critique and have worked hard on a new revision to deal with several of the issues. Please don't take my responses as arguments, I was simply trying to convey my thoughts and original ideas as to how I see the Chapter.

 

That isn't how it comes across, sorry.

 

Which is why the internet is rubbish for coveying emotion or e-content.. Except for the words "you're dumped" ;)

[Ace Debonair]

Major rewrite posted, C&C welcome.

 

That's rather better overall than the previous version!

 

The only big question I have is how vigorously the chapter pursues the Fallen. Some DA successors (most, I think) will leave another theatre of war to hunt Fallen if they appear. Others will finish the fight they're in first.

 

To be honest, I see these guys as going after the Fallen even if it means leaving the battlefield, if only to make them seem more like the other, more 'normal' DA chapters. Even under the 'insanity', it'd be a nice touch to have them aware on some innermost level of their duties. :P

[Ecritter]

Ace, thanks for the suggestion. You'll find it added in draft 4.1.

[Wolfbiter]

Just when I thought I was out, the new version pulled me back in... :)

 

I'm definitely enjoying the recent versions; good progress has been made since the original drafts.

 

About this quote:

 

Several times over the centuries, the Lions have diverted from their mission to pursue rumors of relics and long forgotten knowledge.

 

When I read this I thought, "I wonder if they are seeking this knowledge to either secretly find a cure for the berserk tendencies of the chapter, or to help hold on to their traditions in some way to keep from losing control completely?"

 

Just a thought, if it's helpful, let me know.

[Ecritter]

Just when I thought I was out, the new version pulled me back in... :)

 

I'm definitely enjoying the recent versions; good progress has been made since the original drafts.

 

About this quote:

 

Several times over the centuries, the Lions have diverted from their mission to pursue rumors of relics and long forgotten knowledge.

 

When I read this I thought, "I wonder if they are seeking this knowledge to either secretly find a cure for the berserk tendencies of the chapter, or to help hold on to their traditions in some way to keep from losing control completely?"

 

Just a thought, if it's helpful, let me know.

 

As always, thanks to you and everyone for their comments. I'm glad the Lions could pull you back in. :P

 

In the beginning I see them going after the Knowledge because that's what the AoA does, and it was the environment they came from. Now .... I see it more as a 'pack rat' thing. They gather knowledge (don't really use it), hoard it away, and one day hope to present it to the Emperor (of course that will never happen).

 

Your idea is interesting, but I see the insanity so ingrained at this point ... no one is really interested in a cure. Ask an insane man if he's insane and he'll say no ... everyone else is. That's the Lions now.

 

++++++++++++++++++

 

Header test

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/Space%20Marines/lion-logo-trans2.png Lions of Caliban: one step from chaos

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/Space%20Marines/lion-logo-trans2.png Origins

[Ecritter]

Been playing around with the graphics ... looks good?

 

Should the Doton Incident remain in main article or be moved to sidebar?

 

Major rewrite due out tonite.

[Ecritter]

As promised, major rewrite posted. C&C greatly appreciated.

 

++++++++++++

 

Fleet table test

 

[i

Veritas	Battle Barge	Inner Circle, 1st Company (Feral Lions), Armory, Administrative and Support Personnel
Aequitas	Battle Barge	6th Company (Tactical) and 8th Company (Assault)
Veneratio	Battle Barge	7th Company (Tactical) and 9th Company (Devastator)
Venator	Strike Cruiser	2nd Company (Black Lions)
Vindico	Strike Cruiser	3rd Company (Battle Company)
Proeliator	Strike Cruiser	4th Company (Battle Company)
Talio	Strike Cruiser	5th Company (Battle Company)
10 Scouts	Gladius-class Frigate	Scout Squad and Chapter Serfs
6 Strike Escorts	Nova-class Frigates	Chapter Serfs
20 Escorts	Hunter-class Destroyers	Chapter Serfs
75 Rapid Strike Vessels	Sword- and Firestorm-class Frigates, Cobra-class Destroyers	Chapter Serfs

[Ecritter]

New Game Play section added, still looking for C&C.

[Ecritter]

Major change adding minor chaos god .... C&C please.

[Dark Sire]

Sorry this is going to be short and "sweet" but im kindve not the most knowledgable 40k'er but i couldnt help ( try ) and offer a few bits of c&c on the few things i figured i could help with getting you towards your librarium goal.

 

Firstly just a quick sentence structure issue:

 

Now, within the great chapels of of the fleet's Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, gruesome trophies of battle now adorn the walls, and the many chambers and passages of the inner sancta are littered with the bones of fallen foes.

 

I believe in this instance one of the nows should be dropped.

 

As the centuries passed however, it has become much more prevalent and reaching every level of command.

 

Drop the first , and the 'and' and replace the 'and' with a , instead.

 

Even taking the greatest care in their study, it was inevitable that over time the physics would fall under the gods influence.

 

physics should probaly be psychic's, or psykers?

 

Tainted by Chaos, the Librarians broke the bands and freed the weakened god and set about to try to take the Veritas.

 

perhaps try changing to 'Tainted by chaos the Librarians broke the bands, freeing the weakened god before setting their efforts to the attempted taking of the Veritas' as an example.

 

It was a mixed report delivered at the Summit on the Rock. A new Chaos god had been released upon the Imperium, but at the same time news of a possible way to imprison her and the others Chaos gods gave hope that Chaos could be defeated once and for all.

 

It may just be me but this doesnt seem to be flowing right when i read it.

 

'There were mixed feelings over the report delivered at the Summit on the Rock however. While the release of any new chaos god was terrible news, hearing there were means of possible containment for this god and all others gave a glimmer of hope that Chaos could be defeated once and for all.'

 

But even so there seems to be something missing between:

 

Tainted by Chaos, the Librarians broke the bands and freed the weakened god and set about to try to take the Veritas. A vicious attack by Battle Brothers overtaken by the Righteous Fury quickly ended the conflict and forced the newly released Chaos god to flee into the warp.

 

and:

 

It was a mixed report delivered at the Summit on the Rock. A new Chaos god had been released upon the Imperium, but at the same time news of a possible way to imprison her and the others Chaos gods gave hope that Chaos could be defeated once and for all.

 

to me it seems to be a bit jumpy, like its not flowing together because im missing some explanation connecting the two events or at least leading from one to the other.

 

to a large extent. The larger ships

 

two versions of large so close together doesnt read to well, at least to me.

 

Sorry i didnt realise what the time was and i have to run. Dont mean what ive written offensively, but maybe try using a program like word which also deals with grammar and sentence structure to help with what ive suggested. I could be completely wrong in my critiques, im not qualified at all :lol: but to me those things just seem to need attention for the quick squiz i had over the first bit. Best of luck.

[Ecritter]

Dark Sire thanks for the input, several changes have been made.

[Ecritter]

Several small tweaks made following last major change. If no C&C is recieved I'll assume this is ready for submission to the Librarium.

 

Thanks to everyone that has helped make this a workable chapter.

[Apothete]

Several small tweaks made following last major change. If no C&C is recieved I'll assume this is ready for submission to the Librarium.

 

I don't have time to tear it up right now but save your fingers the wasted effort. There's still significant issues that need to be dealt with and I already have someone in line ahead of you when I do get a chance to do a critique.