IA: Lions of Caliban

[Ace Debonair]

Several small tweaks made following last major change. If no C&C is recieved I'll assume this is ready for submission to the Librarium.

 

I don't have time to tear it up right now but save your fingers the wasted effort. There's still significant issues that need to be dealt with and I already have someone in line ahead of you when I do get a chance to do a critique.

 

In other words, brace yourself, a storm is coming. :o

[Sigismund Himself]

To reduce Apothete's workload, I'll steal this critique.

 

Marked by a savage brutality, the great crusade of the Lions of Caliban moves throughout the Imperium. They battle the enemies of the Imperium and seek knowledge in all its forms. It can be said that in their search for knowledge, the Lions walk a thin line between zealot and heretic. Will their downfall be at the hands of the Ordos Hereticus or their brothers within the Adeptus Astartes, or will they fall to the Chaos they have unwittingly unleashed upon the Imperium. Only time will tell.

I would avoid using the phrase 'great crusade'. It has a lot of meaning in the 40k verse and one normal chapter alone is not a great crusade. Need a question mark on the second last paragraph as well.

 

Following the 1st Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, the Adeptus Astartes had been weakened due to battle losses. In response, the High Lords of Terra deemed a new founding necessary and ordered the creation of several new Chapters of the Space Marines. This was to be the 3rd Founding, and by order of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Angels of Absolution provided the leadership and a training cadre of veterans for a new crusading Chapter.

I would hesitate at putting any reasoning for a Founding down when there isn't one in the official fluff (if I had to, I'd hint at it but stop short of saying it outright). Especially when there's a gap of 200+ years between Abaddon's First Black Crusade and the Third Founding. Also, since this is an IA, don't use numbers instead of words (1st=first etc).

 

Commander Dolgrim, Master of the 2nd Company of the Angels of Absolution, was chosen as Supreme Grand Master of the new Chapter. With the training cadre of Veterans provided, he immediately set about to recruit and train new marines. From the great stores of the Adeptus Mechanicus, they were given geneseed and for the next twenty years the Chapter grew and learned to act as one. Named to honor the legendary Lion El'Jonson and his ancestral home, they were presented their fleet by the Adeptus Mechanicus and given the daunting mission to take the war to the enemies of the Imperium. So was born the Lions of Caliban Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. The path was set before them and their great crusade began.

This reads quite boringly. Make it exciting otherwise there seems little reason to read on for the reader.

 

As is the way of Space Marines, small bands of Scouts act as a vanguard for the fleet and probe the path before them. When enemies of the Imperium are discovered, they interrogate captives and locals before the main chapter forces arrive to deal the killing blow. Over time, due either to ingenuity or necessity, the Scouts began to gather information solely by killing and devouring the hearts of enemy troops and even locals that may have useful information, utilizing their Omophagea implants to quickly learn what they need. Although this practice was frowned upon, it was recognized that gathering information in this manner was more efficient and the practice continued.

There's quite a problem with tense in this section. Also, I don't think the using of one of the Astartes organs counts as ingenious. I would see every scout force as using the Omophagea organ to gather information as otherwise why bother implanting the organ at all? This paragraph does seem like it doesn't tell us that much new about the chapter. I know that you're setting up but using a whole paragraph in Origins to set up seems like a bit of a waste.

 

As the centuries passed, those Scouts became full Battle Brothers and later Sergeants, Masters, and even the Grand Masters composing the Inner Circle. They carried the practice of eating the hearts of the dead with them and it flourished within the Chapter. Many rites and rituals grew from it, and each generation of Lions adding to its ever growing animalistic nature. Eventually the eating of the hearts was expanded to encompass the total body. Now, within the great chapels of of the fleet's Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, gruesome trophies of battle adorn the walls, and the many chambers and passages of the inner sancta are littered with the bones of fallen foes.

Every marine in the Imperium would use his Omophagea. So you really need to explain a bit better why it is only this chapter that descends into the practice of eating the whole body.

 

Only a few centuries after the inception of the chapter, a strange phenomena began to appear within its ranks. As the chapter was engaged in battle, a few Battle Brothers would fly into an uncontrollable fury and rush headlong into hand to hand combat with enemy forces. At first it was a rarity, only one or two brothers would be overcome by the fury at a time. The act was discouraged and aboard the fleet's flagship, Chaplains and Librarians studied the affected brothers in an attempt learn the cause of the fury, and find a way to control it. Because of its rarity, it was deemed a minor concern at the time. As the centuries passed however, it has become much more prevalent, reaching every level of command. This, as much as anything else, has added to the chapter’s reputation of savage brutality in combat.

No chapter would think such a potential sign of geneseed degradation as a minor concern. And to let it spread throughout the whole chapter? It seems a little contrived.

 

After battling the forces of Chaos on the feral world of Largos III, the Lions uncovered a stone obelisk bound by ancient metal bands. The bands bore the mark of Khorne. In the interest of the knowledge that may be gained, the obelisk was transported to the Battle barge Veritas, the Lions flagship.

 

Decades of study and probing by the the Lion's Chief Librarian and his psychic brothers uncovered much about the stone. Shea'an the Tormentor, a minor Chaos god, had rebelled against her master. For her transgressions, Khorne had imprisoned her within the obelisk for all eternity. For more centuries then could be counted, the obelisk had stood on Largos III as a warning to any that would dare question the power of Khorne.

 

Considering the danger of having the ancient stone aboard the Veritas, the knowledge that a Chaos god had been imprisoned and held for centuries made further study a necessity that justified the risk it entailed. Even taking the greatest care in their study, it was inevitable that over time the psychics would fall under the Chaos gods infernal influence.

This just reads badly to me. Considering the risk of taint, why would you take it onboard (and onto the flagship? surely you would keep it away from the sacred home of the chapter?)? Okay, you want to get knowledge. They find out that it contains a minor chaos god. This is where most chapters would burn it. Even the Relictors. Why on Terra would you trust the daemon's words? Surely the Librarians are smart enough to figure out that all the daemon wants to do is to be released and would only act in such a way as to ensure this happens? If you want to show that their quest for knowledge is risky or knows no boundaries, I think there is better ways to do it than making the Librarians seem rather incompetent.

 

Tainted by chaos the Librarians broke the restraining bands, freeing the weakened god before setting their efforts to the attempted taking of the Veritas. Many Battle Brothers fell to the attacks of the psykers, but a vicious counter-attack by Battle Brothers overtaken by the Righteous Fury ended the conflict and forced the newly released Chaos god to flee. When it was over the obelisk was shattered, over a dozen Lions lay dead, and the Mistress of Pain had disappeared into the warp. All that was left was for the Lions to share what they'd learned with their brethren.

What effect did this have on the chapter? What happened to the Librarium? Was it dissolved? What impact did this have on their quest for knowledge? Currently, this is a bit of a problem with the IA. A lot of the details and themes seem disjointed as they don't interact with each other. You mention something but you don't mention how this affects everything else about the chapter.

 

There were mixed feelings over the report delivered at the Summit on the Rock, however. While the release of any new chaos god was terrible news, hearing that there may well be a means of possible containment for this god, and all others, gave a glimmer of hope that Chaos could be defeated once and for all.

If they reported this at the Rock, you would think that they would get in a lot of trouble with the rest of the successors.

 

In the rough tunnels, the normal tactics of the Lions became confused and combat broke into small close skirmishes.

 

Meeting heavy resistance, a squad of Feral Lions supported by two squads of Imperial Guards fought a hard won battle with a seemingly unending swarm of genestealers. It was a long and brutal fight, two of the Feral Lions and half the Guards fell to the Tyranids.

Not sure on the 'normal tactics... became confused'. Partly because I don't know what the Lions normal tactics are and secondly because Astartes are generally pretty adaptable fighters (so I'm not sure confused is the best choice of word). Secondly, versus 'an unendless swarm', you only lost 2 marines and half the guards? A little MISS IMO.

 

So taken by the fury, and finding no more Tyranids to fight, the surviving Feral Lions turned on the remaining Guards. In the confining space of the tunnels, the Guards didn't stand a chance and quickly were dispatched. Only when no one else was left standing did the Feral Lions regain their senses. Official reports of the encounter would show the Imperial Guard dying honorably in combat against the Tyranids.

I could understand if they were fighting other humans normally but there's quite a bit of difference between bugs and humans. It seems like these guys are as bad as Khorne beserkers? Also, I think this whole sidebar could be written a lot better and more concisely so that you've basically got a report of the action and then rumours from surrounding units of feral snarls and guardsman's screams on the vox that are dismissed as merely interference or the Tyranids.

 

That's Origins down, more to come this evening (Oz time).

[Apothete]

Alright, so it looks like I both have more time and the aforementioned waiting list taken care of, so let's get down to brass tacks...

 

The very first thing I see as I load this writeup is a banner which, in all honesty, doesn't really evoke either the vaunted brutality or the thirst for knowledge that supposedly mark this Chapter out, though I suppose the biggest sin is the lower-case modern font at the top. It's a hugely jarring distration, at least from my point of view.

 

Marked by a savage brutality, the great crusade of the Lions of Caliban moves throughout the Imperium. They battle the enemies of the Imperium and seek knowledge in all its forms. It can be said that in their search for knowledge, the Lions walk a thin line between zealot and heretic. Will their downfall be at the hands of the Ordos Hereticus or their brothers within the Adeptus Astartes, or will they fall to the Chaos they have unwittingly unleashed upon the Imperium. Only time will tell.

 

I'm pretty sure that I've brought this up before but I'll say it here in case I didn't.

 

The article contains far too much informal writing for something which is supposed to be a pompous bit of historical puffery, exemplified in the question which you didn't even bother to properly punctuate. This is far, far too early in the writeup to be mentioning the dichotomy that you're going to try to justify later, especially since we know next to nothing about them at this point. Any hint of tension or development is now blown because you've already given away the major twist.

 

This is a major no-no.

 

Also, as I had previously noted, you've left their future ambiguous but you're positioning them to be a Chapter which, should their secret be discovered, will have no course of action left to them but utter destruction at the hands of the enraged Imperium. Without a solid base of explanation and expounding upon your reasons, this isn't all that believable. There's just too much at stake with the creation and support of a Chapter to allow any but the most senior or the most remote to operate without scrutiny.

 

Following the 1st Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, the Adeptus Astartes had been weakened due to battle losses. In response, the High Lords of Terra deemed a new founding necessary and ordered the creation of several new Chapters of the Space Marines. This was to be the 3rd Founding, and by order of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Angels of Absolution provided the leadership and a training cadre of veterans for a new crusading Chapter.

 

You have structural and fluff issues here.

 

Unless writing an informal piece, you shouldn't be using numbers for the Foundings or major events like Black Crusades. Additionally, I think that anyone who knows enough to understand what that war was would also grasp that a weakened Imperium was facing losses of soldiers and wargear, which means that the opening sentence is dabbling in superfluous writing. Oh, and Founding should be capitalized.

 

Why would the Biologis be able to order the Angels of Absolution to do anything other than send in their geneseed tithes? To the best of our knowledge, it's the High Lords of the Adeptus Terra which creates the Chapters, requests training for the neophytes, and authorizes the distribution of resources by way of the Mechanicus and Munitorum.

 

Commander Dolgrim, Master of the 2nd Company of the Angels of Absolution, was chosen as Supreme Grand Master of the new Chapter. With the training cadre of Veterans provided, he immediately set about to recruit and train new marines.

 

So the training cadre wanted to train? What else would they be there for? This is both repetitious (see the exact uncommon phrase used mere sentences before) and unneccessary, so it should either be reworded or dropped. Also, unless Dolgrim was choosing a course of action which wouldn't be expected - charging directly into a WAAAAGH with only rank neophytes and his loyal Angels of Absolution followers, for example - why is this even worth mentioning? It's what one would expect a new Chapter to be doing, not something different and thus needful in an Index Astartes.

 

From the great stores of the Adeptus Mechanicus, they were given geneseed and for the next twenty years the Chapter grew and learned to act as one.

 

Why twenty years? Why not more? Why not less? What pushed them to act at the end of that time period rather than pursuing limited deployments while building strength and allowing some Brothers to become experienced enough to lead as more and more come up to speed?

 

If one assumes that aspirants are taken at the peak of candidacy and immediately put into training and modification programs, then that's barely enough time for two generations to rise to line Companies. Even at a prodigous recruitment rate and assuming enough manpower and resources to properly oversee the screening, assimilation, adaptation, and training of the raw adolescents, how would they achieve much of anything in so short a time? If it doesn't bear a particular influence upon the writeup, why is it worth mentioning? If it does influence the writeup, why aren't we seeing it in the text?

 

Named to honor the legendary Lion El'Jonson and his ancestral home, they were presented their fleet by the Adeptus Mechanicus and given the daunting mission to take the war to the enemies of the Imperium.

 

An Astartes lives to fight the enemies of man. It's in his blood and bone.

 

How is this a daunting task when it's what he is created to do?

 

As is the way of Space Marines, small bands of Scouts act as a vanguard for the fleet and probe the path before them. When enemies of the Imperium are discovered, they interrogate captives and locals before the main chapter forces arrive to deal the killing blow.

 

I've addressed this before as well and you seem to have ignored the point, so I suppose it ought to be brought up yet again.

 

Why, if they're being trained by a fiercely loyal and dogmatic Chapter like the Angels of Absolution, would the Lions of Caliban deviate from the organization and methodology of the Ravenwing and Deathwing paradigm? It's even stated, as I noted, that the Angels of Absolution are known to field their own equivalent of the Ravenwing alongside that of their parent Chapter. Unless you're going to justify this reliance on untried Scouts rather than battle-hardened Brothers who have been at least partially initiated into the secret knowledge of the Fallen, then you've got a hole the size of an Oberon Class Battleship in this writeup.

 

Now, you may not care about that, but it's there and it isn't going away just because you don't feel like explaining.

 

Over time, due either to ingenuity or necessity, the Scouts began to gather information solely by killing and devouring the hearts of enemy troops and even locals that may have useful information, utilizing their Omophagea implants to quickly learn what they need. Although this practice was frowned upon, it was recognized that gathering information in this manner was more efficient and the practice continued.

 

This is still pure handwavium territory, in that you make a bald statement and then gloss over the obvious consequences in order to pursue your stated goal for the writeup. Yes, we know that you want degenerate warrior-monks who are turning into animalistic berzerkers, but we need a good, solid explanation of how the practice of deliberately consuming foes came into being and wasn't purged. You make something of a start on this when you point out the usefulness of such a tactic, but a similar argument could be made by the Excommunicate Traitorus Relictors and their expedient use of daemon weaponry.

 

Once again, this is a weak card in your house and it topples the rest because you have yet to shore it up appropriately. Nothing for the rest of the writeup makes a bit of sense unless you can hurdle this point and tell us why Scouts who devour for knowledge weren't purged or censured for their actions. Aside from their company structure and the secret of the Fallen, the Dark Angels are staunch and almost-Codex Loyalists, which means they're not too likely to tolerate public behavior which calls Inquisitorial scrutiny down on them and theirs.

 

As the centuries passed, those Scouts became full Battle Brothers and later Sergeants, Masters, and even the Grand Masters composing the Inner Circle. They carried the practice of eating the hearts of the dead with them and it flourished within the Chapter. Many rites and rituals grew from it, and each generation of Lions adding to its ever growing animalistic nature.

 

See above.

 

Also, what exactly is it that you see as the difference between rites and rituals? Why is that not redundant? That whole ending sentence is clunky and needs to be redone, presuming you can find a good excuse for the concept in the first place.

 

Only a few centuries after the inception of the chapter, a strange phenomena began to appear within its ranks. As the chapter was engaged in battle, a few Battle Brothers would fly into an uncontrollable fury and rush headlong into hand to hand combat with enemy forces. At first it was a rarity, only one or two brothers would be overcome by the fury at a time. The act was discouraged and aboard the fleet's flagship, Chaplains and Librarians studied the affected brothers in an attempt learn the cause of the fury, and find a way to control it. Because of its rarity, it was deemed a minor concern at the time. As the centuries passed however, it has become much more prevalent, reaching every level of command. This, as much as anything else, has added to the chapter’s reputation of savage brutality in combat.

 

There's still a massive problem with your handling of this issue as well. To borrow from the good folks who I cited earlier, this is essentially a Wall Banger inconsistency.

 

There is next to no reason to believe that a Chapter descended by only two generations from the highly paranoid and secretive Dark Angels would, in effect, ignore a trait which could possibly lead to their very own shameful split. If nothing else, the Interrogator-Chaplains would want words (or worse) with these poor souls and would possibly either order them excoriated until the behavior stopped, remanded to the Apothecarion for testing and study, or even turned over to the Angels of Absolution or the Dark Angels in case they had discovered some new threat to their purity. There's just no way that something as mild as discouragement would be the response of a Chapter with even a hint of sense were Brothers suddenly showing a tendency to become mindless combat monsters, especially when that behavior not only endangers themselves and their comrades but the success of the mission. This isn't the Space Wolves or World Eaters, where berserkers are a known factor and exist within the cultures from which they're recruited, and the increse in frequency would probably worry the hell out of anyone in the command structure.

 

Is it because of the recruits that they're taking in? Has their geneseed gone unstable? Is there a moral threat which is corrupting the Chapter from within? What other explanation might present itself?

 

The one thing that wouldn't happen is calmly accepting something for which there is no historical precedent in a lineage where the only breach with tradition lead to a violent schism that broke a world and lead to a secret civil war. You've also completely failed to address my previous objections on this point.

 

After battling the forces of Chaos on the feral world of Largos III, the Lions uncovered a stone obelisk bound by ancient metal bands. The bands bore the mark of Khorne. In the interest of the knowledge that may be gained, the obelisk was transported to the Battle barge Veritas, the Lions flagship.

 

...so they knowingly collected an artifact of the Ruinous Powers, rather than destroying it or handing it over to the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy?

 

Really?

 

What could possibly motivate them to do such a thing and how would it serve their purposes to face the corruption that the obelisk presents? Also, the rest of this segment reads as if you cribbed the level of explanation that Ben Counter provides for the Soul Drinkers turning, only you forgot to provide the reasoning that he did. At least they had the excuse of going to war in order to rescue a Chapter relic, rather than choosing to accept Chaos bald-faced by picking up an object that they know is tainted.

 

Unless this is altered or further supported, it's completely unbelievable. On top of that, you've basically invented some kind of demigod status rather than just calling Shea'an a daemon.

 

Even taking the greatest care in their study, it was inevitable that over time the psychics would fall under the Chaos gods infernal influence.

 

The appropriate term is either "psyker" or some variant of Librarian, though in this case I'd call them all bloody idiots and completely improbable.

 

There were mixed feelings over the report delivered at the Summit on the Rock, however. While the release of any new chaos god was terrible news, hearing that there may well be a means of possible containment for this god, and all others, gave a glimmer of hope that Chaos could be defeated once and for all.

 

We have absolutely no fluff evidence that there are tiers within the Ruinous Powers, just the five major ones and their servants. Being able to bind a single powerful daemon is in no way evidence that anyone, human or Astartes, could do anything directly to the likes of Khorne (who created the prison). Incidentally, magical constructs are anathema to the big, bloody-handed berserker and his calcerous chair, in that he hates sorcerors and psykers alike. Why would he have employed something like that in the first place?

 

Additionally, there's no reason to believe that the Dark Angels or their allies would accept the Lions as anything other than abject heretics after the incident aboard the Veritas. They've shown themselves willing to traffic in daemonic artifacts and unable to control either their line Brothers or their Librarians, which doesn't leave them with a whole lot of argument that they possess enough sense to be allowed to roam at large. What possible reason is there for not either destroying them on the spot or turning them in for Excommunicate status and the eventual purge?

 

As the article stands, the Lions should be destroyed, their colors stricken, and their records expunged so that they are nothing but an embarassing stain upon the honor of the Dark Angels and Angels of Absolution.

 

The Lions of Caliban are a fleet based chapter to a large extent. The capital ships of the fleet normally stay in close, while the frigates manned by Scout squads, range far and wide probing for enemies of the Imperium.

 

Close to what?

 

Also, how are they largely fleet based? Either the Chapter considers the ships to be their homes or they have one or more planets on which they have settled.

 

Though the Lions are more at ease on the move, it is not uncommon for them to set up a base on a world when combat operations require them to remain in a given area for an extended period of time. For this reason, old, unused Lion Monasteries can be found on several worlds throughout the Imperium.

 

Why would the Lions bother to build monasteries unless they were planning extended operations that would require their lingering presence, rather than operating from the ships? It's a waste of material, time, and focus which could be better applied to the hunt for the Fallen (which you also haven't addressed) or the prosecution of their other duties.

 

The backgrounds of the marines in the chapter are as diverse as any in the Adeptus Astartes. Each adding their uniqueness to the whole of the chapter.

 

Sentence.

 

Fragment.

 

Now led by Supreme Grand Master Traegen, the Lions of Caliban are organized similarly to the Dark Angels with only a few significant differences. The changes are a recent development to honor the Righteous Fury and its power against the forces of Chaos.

 

Should I really bother with this segment when you have yet to properly support the mere existence of the so-called Righteous Fury?

 

The combat doctrine of the Lions of Caliban has been well honed over thousands of years. Bands of Scouts, operating from small ships forward of the fleet, undertake scouting operations and always precede a Lion attack. Using the information gathered by the Scouts the fleet presses the attack, normally en masse.

 

I'm still waiting to hear why untested neophytes who have yet to earn their armor are preferred to Veterans with enormous experience and a knowledge of what they're fighting for.

 

Every generation of the Lions is marked by a rise in savage brutality in combat. It is not uncommon for a large number to fall under the righteous fury and charge headlong into enemy formations, tearing at them with close combat weapons or even their bare hands.

 

Why isn't Righteous Fury capitalized?

 

Much like the Angels of Absolution, their parent chapter, and the other Chapters of The Unforgiven, the Lions forever hunt the Fallen. The Lions hold this duty supreme, and follow it with such vigor that they will withdraw from battle or suspend the search for knowledge to pursue the Fallen when located. The Lions coordinate their activities with the Dark Angels and their successor Chapters in regard to this secret mission. It is not unknown for the Lion's Supreme Grand Master to join the summit on the Rock. Also like their parent chapter, the Lions revere knowledge. The Lions however, hold it in such a high regard as to be verging on heresy.

 

This is far, far too late in the article to be mentioning the Fallen.

 

The Lions are a chapter at odds with itself. When in battle, the Lions seem to be a completely different Chapter. They are torn between the time honored ideals and rituals the chapter began with and the newer, more savage, ones that have grown over the centuries. A cautious secrecy within the chapter has grown to hide the more animalistic beliefs from the more 'civilized' members of the Imperium.

 

Chapter, Chapter... You double up and forget to capitalize one instance of the use.

 

Also, in true broken record fashion, I'll refer you back to the segment wherein I ask for the justification for their savagery.

 

Knowledge, no Matter the Cost

 

Why the lower case?

 

Several times over the centuries, the Lions have diverted from their mission to pursue rumors of relics and long forgotten knowledge. Many Lions have readily given their lives to capture even the smallest bit of this knowledge. The Chaplains of the Lions direct these hunts and, aboard the Battle Barge Veritas, catalog and protect the relics and sacred texts once found.

 

Knowledge, knowledge...

 

Early in the chapter's history the Lions also began to bring the enemies dead back to the fleet as well.

 

I believe you'll find that the possessive form is "enemies'" with an apostrophe if you meant to be plural, or "enemy's" if you meant to be singular. In this case, it would matter how many different groups of foes to which you refer.

 

The geneseed of Lion El'Jonson, by way of the Angels of Absolution, was used to create the Lions of Caliban. All the geneseed are pure and functioning properly. Tests within the chapter have determined that the Righteous Fury is not a part of the geneseed but caused by a yet undetermined source, perhaps with time the true cause of the fury can be determined.

 

What do tests from the Mechanicus, who probably know better, have to say?

 

Also, you use an odd plural construct in the second sentence, since the organs and implants are controlled and modified by the geneseed but not a part of it. Why?

 

Preferred Enemy – Units of the Black Lions[/b] company add units and characters designated as the Fallen as Preferred Enemies.

 

If you thought this was ready for submission, perhaps you should check for broken tags and simple formatting mistakes.

[Sigismund Himself]

Apothete has hit all but one of the points I was going to so I'll finish with it and some general advice.

Only the Strong Survive

 

Mock battles once used to practice close combat have changed to more savage tests of strength. Its now common to find nude Lions locked in hand to hand combat. Normally the fights end in first blood, but as the fury become more prevalent its becoming more common for brothers for fight for hours and for the fights to last until one Lion lies dead.

Why wouldn't they stop the practice then? There's an awful lot of investment gone into those Astartes, far too much to put more risk of death from your own brothers.

 

The themes of the IA aren't put together well right now. They seem to pop up only when needed and don't interact with one another. A prime example is the knowledge theme. This is really only mentioned twice; once with the finding of the Chaos artefact and in Beliefs. There's no hint of it in Origins and we're left wondering how it came about. I think that might be the result of trying to fit too many ideas into the chapter. You've got the hunt for the Fallen, hunt for knowledge and a descent into an animalistic state. If you drop the hunt for knowledge and keep them a DA successor (or drop the DA successor/Hunt for the Fallen and keep the hunt for knowledge) then I think the writing of the IA will become a lot easier.

 

Currently, it's too short (2500ish). Once you've fixed up what you've already written and sorted out the themes, I would look at adding more.

[Ecritter]

No arguements, just some questions so I can continue.

 

A major question one critique says why mention eating the dead cause its common practice and the other says why in gods name would you do something so dangerous.

 

Which is it?

 

A few other questions so that I can get this IA right.

 

Opening Paragraph - I followed the Octaguide for the layout of the IA. It states:

 

Introductory Paragraph

Typically, before any IA, there is a brief statement of the Chapter and who they are – almost an abstract of the Chapter. It sums up the IA very briefly, focusing mostly on their history and any particular quirks. It ends, as all such paragraphs in 40K fluff do, by assuring the reader that the Chapter is totally awesome and dangerous. Or alluding to doom in the near future. Take your pick. They're only a few lines long – don't get carried away. These are easier to write after the IA as a whole has come together, but writing them beforehand can help you focus your ideas.

 

Is the Octaguide wrong or did I not follow it correctly?

 

Founding - The DIY Guide states:

 

1. The High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor degree a new Founding of Adeptus Astartes Chapters. There is great jubilation and much quaffing.

 

2. The Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars selects geneseed from the tithed stocks, say from the Ultramarines / Roboute Guilliman gene-line, although as there are only nine First Founding Chapters out of the thousand possible, it is most likely that the geneseed selected will actually be from a successor Chapter.

 

3. The Adeptus Mechanicus cultures some more geneseed from the original sample selected using mindwiped subjects floating in big glassteel tanks. They would also supply some equipment (Rhinos, ships, armour) to get them started, with the rest expected to be produced by the new Chapter's Forges, or requisitioned like every other Chapter does.

 

4. A small cadre of experienced marines from the chapter that supplied the geneseed is given the honour / responsibility of training the initiates from the fledgeling chapter. This would ensure that they follow (broadly) in the footsteps of their parent chapter from a doctrinal and philosophical point of view, although there is still the potential for deviations... children never turn out exactly like their parents.

 

5. The cadre could be made up of a captain from the parent chapter to be the first Chapter Master, along with experienced marines to become the training scout sergeants, and eventually marine squad sergeants and captains. There would also be specialists like a Chaplain, Techmarines, Apothecaries and Librarians to get the chapter going and train up a new generation from among the initiates.

 

6. This would number between 20-40 marines, and there is no way that the First Founding chapters could do this for multiple (up to 20 at a time) successors. Again this supports the idea that later Founding Chapters would have to have a hand in founding the new Chapters, so while two thirds of Chapters are from the Guilliman geneline, the actual geneseed and initial cadre of Marines might have come from the Mortifactors, Black Consuls, Eagle Warriors or any other Chapter with Guilliman geneseed as well as directly from the Ultramarines themselves. For ease of explaination GW (and the Administratum) may call all of them with the Guilliman geneline 'Ultramarines successors', and there is always the chance of snobbery existing, with a chapter wanting to call itself an Ultramarines successor when technically it is the successor of a 25th Founding Guilliman Chapter that no-one has ever heard of.

 

7. The Chapter will recruit and grow in numbers until after many decades it reaches the full compliment. It will participate in battles and campaigns as it's numbers allow, perhaps fighting alongside other Chapters until it has sufficient numbers to conduct independant actions. Remember that a Chapter will rarely send its whole compliment of ten companies to war other than in the most dire of circumstances, so squad and company level actions are common and will be possible quite early in the Chapter's history.

 

8. The initial cadre of marines may return to their parent chapter once they have got the new Chapter running - they may always be Crimson Fists at heart. Alternatively they may elect to stay. Going back to being a Captain after having been a Chapter Master might not appeal to many. It could depend if the secondment was temporary, or of a more permanent nature.

 

I formated the process of my Founding following this, was I wrong?

 

I also noticed after I made this change that IA: The Exonerators treated it in a similiar manner:

 

The devastation wrought by Abbadon's forces during the Ghost War left the defenses of Sector Scarum severely depleted, offering the High Lords of Terra little choice but to raise a new Chapter to join the Astartes Praeses.

 

Other then being shorter, how is that different?

 

As for the Black Crusades, I can only find the date the Crusades started. I find it hard to believe that Crusades that span such great distances lasted only a year. Is there a tome somewhere that I've missed that tells how long each Crusade lasted? Also, I thought the 'official' title was the 1st Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler not the First Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, is this not right?

 

Its my understanding that the DAs and their successors have Scouts just like every other Chapter, and these Scouts carry out normal scouting missions that are completely different from the scouting the Ravenwing does for the Fallen. Is this not correct?

 

In this portion of the IA, I'm specifically talking about the normal Scouts. I've dealt with the Black Lions scouting for the Fallen later and in a couple different places, since its a special scouting duty and not part of normal Chapter scouting and combat. Is this wrong?

 

Can you please explain how the Righteous Fury, which is basically been toned down to be just rushing headlong into hand to hand combat, can be seen as an impurity of any kind? And why it should be seen as more then a nuisance as written now?

 

I wrote Shea'an to be a minor god not a daemon. The Lexicanum lists several minor gods, are they wrong ... are there only the four major Chaos gods?

[Octavulg]

It can be both. Space Marines do have the ability to eat the dead and gain their knowledge, and it would be incredibly dangerous to eat Chaos worshippers due to their physical and mental corruption.

[Ecritter]

Octavulg - I'm sorry, I edited my question into more questions while you were posting.

[Octavulg]

Well, I'm not answering them all, anyway. ;) I have an essay to do. ;)

[Ecritter]

Thanks. Once I get these answers, I should be able to work things out.

[Ferrus Manus]

As for the Black Crusades, I can only find the date the Crusades started. I find it hard to believe that Crusades that span such great distances lasted only a year. Is there a tome somewhere that I've missed that tells how long each Crusade lasted? Also, I thought the 'official' title was the 1st Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler not the First Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, is this not right?

"Potato, potato" - granted the phrase doesn't work well across the internet, but it gets the point across. The convention is that in formal writing, you don't use numbers (i.e use Three instead of 3), unless in exception circumstances.

 

Its my understanding that the DAs and their successors have Scouts just like every other Chapter, and these Scouts carry out normal scouting missions that are completely different from the scouting the Ravenwing does for the Fallen. Is this not correct?

Pretty much, the Ravenwing are primarily used to scout for the Fallen and act as the 'quick capture' option. I guess Scouts are used as recon units in actual battlefield roles.

 

I wrote Shea'an to be a minor god not a daemon. The Lexicanum lists several minor gods, are they wrong ... are there only the four major Chaos gods?

There could be a minor god, it could just be put down as an extraordinarily powerful daemon who has crowned themselves 'god.'

 

As for the others I'm not so sure, I'll get back to you.

[Ecritter]

Ferrus Manus, thanks for the reply.

[Apothete]

Which is it?

 

As Octavulg said, it's pretty much both.

 

The omophagea is obviously included within the Astartes phsyiology for a reason and intended to be used, but some Chapters are more willing to employ it than others. Even amongst those who are known to devour the flesh of foes - the Mortifactors come to mind - there are still limitations on how and why they employ the ability. Regardless of the enormity of information which might become available and the protection afforded by Astartes physiology, it's risky to consume Chaos-tainted flesh and there's no telling what one might catch from the Xenos.

 

Look no further than the Cell-kin for an example of what can happen if one isn't careful enough.

 

Our real objection isn't to your Marines consuming the dead in order to gather intelligence, it's to the way in which you progress the practice without any apparent reasoning behind it. This is a major point of deviance and you're not telling us why it's happening, other than an overly simplified fiat declaraton.

 

Is the Octaguide wrong or did I not follow it correctly?

 

It's the latter, honestly.

 

While I'm sure that we could find some point on which Octavulg and I disagree when it comes to Index Astartes articles were we to look hard enough, our echo-chamber criticism is probably evidence that I'm going to basically telll you to listen to the guy when it comes to improving your writing. You can tell us about your Chapter and their quirks without blowing the surprise.

 

Since you cite my own bastard child as a counter example, I'll point out that nowhere in that paragraph did I say that they were Gethesmenites, that they would develop a reliance on a Chapter-wide vox network, that they see themselves as perfecting the human race in the name of the Emperor, or that they would eventually both toe the line of tech-heresy and maintain a navy which would make the Adeptus Terra nervous. Instead, I showed some elements of their initial character as it would be inherited from their progenitors and explained the circumstances under which they came to be, which sets the stage for the development I then attempted to show afterwards.

 

There's still room for dramatic tension in the article and the surprises, such as they are, are still to come.

 

As for the Black Crusades, I can only find the date the Crusades started. I find it hard to believe that Crusades that span such great distances lasted only a year. Is there a tome somewhere that I've missed that tells how long each Crusade lasted? Also, I thought the 'official' title was the 1st Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler not the First Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, is this not right?

 

To address the first point, I'd honestly agree with you that a single year is about as believable as a chocolate hammer. With an assault that's meant to breach the defenses and head for the stars, you'd expect either overwhelming manpower and weaponry at a single point or so many fronts engaged that there's no hope of containing all of the aggressors. Abbadon may not have won so far but he's no fool, which leads me to believe that he would marshal his strength until such a time as he honestly believed he could smash the defenders.

 

On the latter point, I'll just say that I don't care what the "official" version is if what you say is true. It's silly and should be written properly since it doesn't change anything fluff-wise, yet fixes a stylistic issue.

 

Its my understanding that the DAs and their successors have Scouts just like every other Chapter, and these Scouts carry out normal scouting missions that are completely different from the scouting the Ravenwing does for the Fallen. Is this not correct?

 

The Dark Angels and their successors do, indeed, possess Scouts which they use in a limited reconnaisance role, but their primary purpose is to act as skirmishers, harassers, and commandos in that they are swifter and more lightly armored than the full Brothers that they aspire to be. The mistake that many people seem to make is in interpreting the poorly chosen name which has been given to the unit as a statement of purpose, when the fluff generally treats them more as a nuisance and special-purpose weapon rather than a true scouting body.

 

If you read the Scout entry in the Dark Angel codex, it backs this interpretation quite handily.

 

I actually agree with and support this interpretation because it makes more sense for battle-hardened, well trained, veteran Brothers to be responsible for finding and marking targets than it does for the newest members of the Chapter to do so. In other words, I think that the Space Wolves model for scouting makes more sense than the neophyte model does, though both do have at least some arguments in their favor.

 

Is this wrong?

 

Not if you can argue it successfully. Do so and I'll stop pointing the incongruities out.

 

Can you please explain how the Righteous Fury, which is basically been toned down to be just rushing headlong into hand to hand combat, can be seen as an impurity of any kind? And why it should be seen as more then a nuisance as written now?

 

I've tried to explain this to you twice now.

 

Is it really that hard to understand my reasoning as it's been laid down?

 

I wrote Shea'an to be a minor god not a daemon. The Lexicanum lists several minor gods, are they wrong ... are there only the four major Chaos gods?

 

I think that I found the segment that you're referring to and, in all honesty, it's not that impressive even if taken at face value. Three of the four named entities are joke characters intended as references to writers that influenced the development of the warp and Chaos in general, and one is the renaming of an older being called Malal which has gone away due to potential copyright issues.

 

You could argue that such beings exist but it would probably be easier to support and more believable if you recognize that the examples given were of unaligned Chaos spirits and thus probably more aptly referred to as extremely powerful daemons that exist independent of the Gods. Your creation is a contradiction, both a God and the servant of a God.

[Ecritter]

Apothete, thanks for the explanations. They will make continued work much easier.

[Apothete]

Apothete, thanks for the explanations. They will make continued work much easier.

 

So long as you actually use them, I don't mind reading and critiquing. It's not a waste of my time until I do this through multiple edits with no fruit to show for my efforts.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

So long as you actually use them, I don't mind reading and critiquing. It's not a waste of my time until I do this through multiple edits with no fruit to show for my efforts.

 

And then.... Apothete smash!

 

;)

[Ecritter]

One last question. I'm considering changing to a Blood Raven successor chapter .... but no information is available (that I've been able to find) as to what founding they came from .... so I'm not sure what the earliest founding I could use. Any ideas?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

One last question. I'm considering changing to a Blood Raven successor chapter .... but no information is available (that I've been able to find) as to what founding they came from .... so I'm not sure what the earliest founding I could use. Any ideas?

 

Now Juarez stomp!

 

Don't do it, dude... Seriously, what do the Blood Ravens have that you really need? Other than an ability to make me really mad.

[Ecritter]

Why would the Blood Ravens make you mad ... if I may ask?

 

I was able to find this data on the Blood Ravens;

 

The Blood Ravens' dark secret may be that they have descended not from one of the Loyalist First Founding Chapters but from the Thousand Sons Legion, as before the Horus Heresy the Thousand Sons may have copied and modified their gene-seed and left the new gene-seed on Mars for the tech-priests to use to create new Space Marine Chapter. This would mean that the Blood Ravens Chapter is not a Successor Chapter but is technically one of the First Founding Chapters.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Why would the Blood Ravens make you mad ... if I may ask?

 

Basically, the Chapter was shoehorned in and forced down everyones throats because of the games by Relic and now "they are so awesome" has taken hold.

 

It makes me sick.

 

 

Honestly, if you think it's the best for the Lions - you'd need to change the name :D - then go for it.. But if you want my opinion you're going to need a damn good reason as to why.

 

EDIT: The origins of the Blood Ravens are unknown.. So any data suggesting otherwise is false, to my knowledge.

[Ecritter]

Well my reason would be their thirst for knowledge and the fact they're fleet based. Other then that I'm still looking for more data on them. The Thousand Sons twist seems cool, but honestly I've never played the Dawn of War games.

[Ferrus Manus]

If you did, it would only hurt your chapter more.

 

I mean, why? you've already got a chapter that's descended from DA stock, and thus is centred around the Fallen. Therefore, a change of geneseed will only result in a complete rewrite of the Chapter. Now, to me this just seems like your running away from the issues my colleagues have pointed out; wasting both their time and yours. To be frank, the problems they've pointed out like structure, grammar and unexplained aspects aren't exclusive to this chapter; even a complete re-write will bring these back up, just using different situations.

 

My advice: stick to it.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Justy please, don't do it.. The Blood Ravens have no credibility in my eyes so using them as a geneseed source would only destroy what work you have already done.

[Ecritter]

I guess I'll try again with the DA, but its gonna take a complete rewrite either way.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I guess I'll try again with the DA, but its gonna take a complete rewrite either way.

 

Aye, maybe it will.. But it won't be so much work as long as you stick with the Darn Angels. Imagine how much DA-related content would need to change to reflect a BR heritage; can you say almost everything?

[Ecritter]

Been a long night at work, guess I'll start the rewrite tomorrow. I already know how to get the eating the dead in without having the Fury.