Chaos Marines or Berzerkers

[minigun762]

In my constant re-evaluation of my Chaos Marines since the SW codex came out, I'm not looking at replacing them with Berzerkers.

 

The main reason is that my standard CSM unit is

10 CSM, 2 Meltaguns, Power Fist, IoCG, Rhino = 255 points

Really what this squad is doing is hopping out of a Rhino, rapid firing and then either assaulting or being assaulted.

 

Comparing this to the standard 8 man Berzerker squad we see

1) Berzerkers are cheaper (12 points)

2) Berzerkers are Fearless (not saying alot compared to LD10 rerolled but still there)

3) Berzerkers have a S9 Power Fist on the charge

4) Berzerkers always have more attacks then my CSMs

5) CSMs have twice the shooting power IF they don't charge

6) CSMs have access to Meltaguns for transport busting

 

So what we see is that Berzerkers > CSMs in pretty much all ways besides having a reliable method for opening up transports prior to the charge. Is that worth all the other disadvantages?

[Ashe Darke]

They're less flexible as a unit. But provided you're putting them where they are needed then it should not be a problem. It just means you need to think more about where things are positioned on the board etc.

[chillin]

4) Berzerkers always have more attacks then my CSMs

 

really ?

(assuming you dont get charge in, which is certainly not guaranteed out of a rino)

8 Bz - 8 bp shots + 24 hth attacks =...........32 total attacks

10 csm - 20 bolter shots + 20 hth attacks = 40 total attacks

of course if the csm have a flamer, add another 5 or so to the total, so 45 compaired to 32.

 

Bz are WS.5 but I don't know that makes them better then a squad with so many more attacks. And those 2 spec weops makes the csm so much more versatile. what do brzrkrs do gainst a vehicle that moved more then 6", much less a skimmer ? How far can Bz move across dif terrain ? Maybe as little as 2 or 3". How far can csm's rapidfire across diff terrain ? 12"

I'm not saying that csm's are better then brzrkrs, but you would have a hard time conviencing me that brzrkrs are "better" then csm's.

Brzrks are better at hth. But are most game decided by hth alone ? No.

I think you are compairing apples and oranges.

 

As far as re-evaluating csm's since the SW's dex came out... I have still yet to lose vs SW's (maybe 6-7 games vs 2 different players). SW's can have a squad as good as csm's for a few fewer pts., but there are other differences in the dex's that seem to me (so far) to ballance things out. I play against SW's tomorrow against a guy that is pretty good player (I've played against him using his BT's and crons). I'll let you know if I still feel same after tomorrow.

[ntgcleaner]

The concern about the differences between the two types of squads should be minimal. You use berzerkers for assault against infantry. Using the CSM with all of the specials are more specified towards tearing open the tin can and then possibly assaulting what's inside.

 

The two squads are specialists no matter what anyone says. I personally have had a dilemma between using a LR or rhino for berzerkers, but because they are specialized in assault, I hate the fact of putting them in a rhino because of the loss of the possible long move assault. I would put those CSM in a rhino and bog around for a bit taking transports out.

 

Just make sure you're using each squad to the potential that they are naturally given.

[spartan249]

You do know that boltguns are rapid fire, yes? If you rapid fire, you can not charge, so it's just 20 shots.

[the jeske]

the only important difference is the two melta guns . thats why a 2/2[be it zerker/pms or zerker/csm] set up is better for chaos , then 4 pure zerkers. chaos needs to pop transports fast , zerkers can do that but only out of land raiders , what forces a rush build[that has a lot of bad match ups] . the lr also cost a lot so for giving the option to pop transports[or to make it more simple charge out of transports] we pay in losing oblits as anti tank units . so we dont really gain much anti tank .

[Corpse.]

Rhino+Unit Synergy

 

Rhino drops off a unit then it rapid fires and then gets charged. In total, the CSM will have 4 technical 'tries' to hurt you. Two shots before hand (+ special weapons) and then after the damage is done, the unit will charge I4 WS4 2 attack unit of models. It's the rapid fire advantage, greater if facing fragless+cover/I3- units.

 

Berzerkers must either remain in the rhino to stay still for a turn to exit and charge from it, or have something stall the enemy before getting the charge. (Hard to do, considering they get focused on being zerkers and all).

 

Either way, it's a case of one unit takes the heat, the others return the heat issue when it comes to zerks. Balanced units do much more, but not as good as the specialists.

 

You wouldn't expect to rapid fire and have 10 CSM survive a charge from a large mob of orks. Zerkers however, will likely do the similar damage as a CSM unit rapid firing then getting charged, being I4 and downing a few more orks before being swarmed.

[chillin]

You do know that boltguns are rapid fire, yes? If you rapid fire, you can not charge, so it's just 20 shots.

 

You do know that 10 csm's get 20 attacks when they hit back in CC, yes ? So it's 20 shots and 20 hth attacks just like I said.

[minigun762]

(assuming you dont get charge in, which is certainly not guaranteed out of a rino)

8 Bz - 8 bp shots + 24 hth attacks =...........32 total attacks

10 csm - 20 bolter shots + 20 hth attacks = 40 total attacks

of course if the csm have a flamer, add another 5 or so to the total, so 45 compaired to 32.

Thats a fair point Chillin. I guess I was thinking of stat-wise, not squad-wise but you're correct. Its hard for me to math-hammer out the potential of the Bolters vs just Bolt Pistols. It can make a big difference simply because of the extra range and shots or it could be fairly minor if all you're trying to do is assault something.

 

 

As far as re-evaluating csm's since the SW's dex came out... I have still yet to lose vs SW's (maybe 6-7 games vs 2 different players). SW's can have a squad as good as csm's for a few fewer pts., but there are other differences in the dex's that seem to me (so far) to ballance things out. I play against SW's tomorrow against a guy that is pretty good player (I've played against him using his BT's and crons). I'll let you know if I still feel same after tomorrow.

What I did last night was sit down with the SW codex and I tried to make an equivalent army to my Chaos army. Now thats not to say I was going for the toughest list possible but one that was a close mirror to my own.

What I got was something like:

 

HQ:Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with fancy upgrades to basically make it a Daemon Prince equivalent. Came out to be better then a Warptime DP but 50% more expensive.

ELITE: 5 man Terminator squads with a mix of PW/PF and a heavy weapon about 10% more expensive but suffers from LD9 only.

TROOP: 10 man GH with Melta/Fist/Wulfen Mark/Rhino = 10% less then CSM squad but LD8. Not sure if 1 PF attack + 1+D6 Rending is better or worse than 2 PF attacks.

HEAVY: 6 man Long Fangs, 4 ML + 1 PC for same price as a Defiler or 2 Oblits. More firepower then either squad but completely static.

 

So what I'm seeing is that compared to SW, I have access to cheaper HQs and Elites, more expensive troops and different but similiarly priced Heavies.

My conclusion then is not that I need to swap Troops but rather I need to move my emphasis from CSM spamming to include more elites and HQ units. Does that sound logical?

[Corpse.]

If this is a full "Wolf vs Chaos" thing.

 

Final Points:

 

Chaos is renown for first turn assaults even with zerkers using lash. (Raider+Anything+Lash=Assaulting up to 30+" away)

Chaos can has units as troops that can do more then most armies elite selections can do.

Chaos reroll LD is better then not being allowed to run and suffer those fearless armor saves.

Chaos often gets the charge anyway, and works in unison as an army more often then wolves do.

 

A few small points differences here and there makes little difference in the hands of a decent player. A few local DA players proves that constantly.

 

If it's any moral booster, I have at least three wins per loss against the local wolf players, even those who attempt to mimic chaos playstyles.

[Possessed Marine]

running pure 'zerks isn't all it's cracked up to be, it's better to have regular CSM's to pop open any transports they come across, then have the 'zerks slaughter the (former) occupants of said transport