Rhinos,Dreads,and vindicators..oh my

[7Thunders]

Ok,heres what's up. I want to expand on my black reach box set. I already own one rhino.pedro,and a chaplain.

 

I was thinking about purchasing:Battleforce box set,stern guard,and a vindicator. Which brings me to the following questions.

 

1-I love rhinos B) I think they are cool. Is it worth the points to take all of the little extras,like hunter killer missle and extra armour??

or am I just wasting my time.

2- Why is putting sternguard into a rhino considered a Bad thing??(my local guys are getting on me about this,yet they never seem to pop the tank)

 

3-can somebody tell me what the hell a "Rifle dreadnought" is?? and why do I need one??

I have been up and down the internet trying to find one of these.

 

4-Vindicator- I like it,I have a love of all things that go BOOM!! but Does it work well in a defensive list or should I just add the Dread??

 

I know these are all pain in the butt questions. But i would rather make an army based on my style of play rather than do what everyone else thinks is "the Most awsome".

When ever i play any miniatures game I have a tendency to Dig in and bring the big guns to bear,only moving up when I clear each enemy in my path.

So there it is,the newbie questions have been asked B)

thanks in advance to anyone who want's to tackle this

later

-7

[Jackelope King]

1. Keep Rhinos cheap, especially as you build up your army. You want everyone mech'd up, and unless you go for a mass alpha strike (which pure Codex Marines aren't that good at).

 

2. Your local guys are steering you wrong. People seem to assume that you use them as a suicide drop pod squad, but that's not their best. Marines are at their best when mech'd up, when they can roll up in large numbers, rapid fire, then mount back up and maneuver to the next position. That said, there's some fierce competition for that elites slot, which includes #3

 

3. "Rifleman Dreadnought" is slang for a Dreadnought with 2x twin-linked autocannons. It's a very cheap, very flexible option that can reliably threaten light vehicles (like transports in the mech-heavy land of 5th edition) and all sorts of models on foot (from the lowliest trooper to the nastier Monstrous Creatures). I run three of them in my Biker list.

 

4. The Vindicator, in my mind, suffers from having a short-ranged, single-shot gun. Compared to a Predator (even with just Heavy Bolter sponsons), it gets fewer chances to wound per round, and it relies on the enemy not spacing models well. Scary gun yes, but a scary gun you can only ever take 3 of. If you want to play a sit back and shoot army, that's not the way to go.

[7Thunders]

Well,I guess the vindicator will be put on hold.

 

So,What do I buy exactly,to make a "Rifle Dread"?? will this guy pair up well,with my Black reach Dread?

 

Also,Am i just spinning my Wheels on the purchase of the Battle force box??

 

Reason i ask is: I don't think I am ever going to use those assault guys that much. I may be wrong,but i kind of like the scouts better.

 

As for the Sternguard/Rhino combination,I have been rolling up where I am needed,and jumping out and shooting the hell out of anything i can,and then loading back into the tank and driving to the next fight. My stern guard seem to live quite well.....

 

It's my stupid tac marines that get crushed like watermelons :rolleyes:

[Possessed Marine]

actually, why not do scouts & assault? the scouts are good at getting into enemy lines, but they need support, anything that deepstrikes (assault marines included) will help take pressure off them, or they die quickly. I do like scouts as well, arm one with heavy bolter and ping away with hellfire shells. give your assault sgt. meltabombs, he'll take out pretty much any vehicle (once destroyed - exploded a land raider with a single meltabomb). The sternguard, do work great in combo with rhino, don't let the suicide guys try to tell you different, the only exception is, with Kantor, you might Drop Pod them onto any open objectives, since they are scoring at that point. And remember, tac squads need to be supported by your elites, not the other way around... which is the opposite of Chaos

[FlamingDeth]

Not only does it pair up well with a blackreach dread, but mine are made out of black reach dreads. Those + aegis defense line autocannons make excellent rifle dreads, just magnetized the arms so that I can equip them differently if I should desire.

 

On the assault guys, you don't have to make them into an assault squad. The battle force doesn't just come with prebuilt snap together models, it's the full tactical squad and full assault squad sprue. If you just think of them as a collection of bodies and (rather dynamic) legs and sergeant options, then it comes with 15 tactical marines.

 

For the Vindicator, I rather like it. I normally take two (or three!) in my bike lists. It's a large blast so it can take out swarms, it's Str10 AP2 to instakill multi-wound models, and Str10 ordnance to deal with vehicles -- it really can take out whatever you need to take out. It definitely does depend on playing aggressively to work though, if you're waiting for the enemy to come to you then it's never going to get to shoot.

[Justicar Valius]

unless i am missing somthing you can't move and fire an ordnance weapon on a tank. So that Vindicator isn't going to be firing much.

[FlamingDeth]

Ordnance weapons can fire just fine with a standard 6" move. Ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire only if firing at something outside of line of sight. The vindicator can shoot just fine.

[kaiserstole20]

unless i am missing somthing you can't move and fire an ordnance weapon on a tank. So that Vindicator isn't going to be firing much.

 

Vindicator can move 6" and fire the big cannon, it just can't fire any defensive weapons as well.

[Koremu]

Vindicators are an excellent addition to a Rhino list IMO - they draw fire quite well from the Rhinos.

 

Vindicators aren't at their best Defensively, but it is possible to leave them in Reserve, and have them turn up on turn 2 or turn 3 to go "Surprise! BOOM!" at the now onrusing enemy.

 

Oh and Extra Armour is worth it on Rhinos if the unit inside is important or required somewhere. It does make a difference when you can keep trundling that Scoring unit forward every turn, or get your Sternguard into range of an MC.

[DarkGuard]

1. I wouldn't upgrade them unless you have points left over at the end. One of the brilliant things about Rhinos is that they are cheap, and when you start adding more upgrades to them, the more expensive they are for what is a light transport vehicle. So I'd run them with no upgrades. I don't bother with weapon upgrades, and spending nearly half the cost of a Rhino for extra armour is pretty expensive considering it only ignored one 6th of the vehicle damage table. I haven't regretted not taking it once.

 

2. Putting Sternguard in a Rhino isn't a bad thing. Like others have said, a lot of people consider them suicide units, but they are so much more. They can be linebreakers, sweepers, firebase units, pretty much anything you want them to be (except for CC specialist and even then they're not bad with Pedro around). It depends on your play style. I play my Sternguard as support for my Tactical Squad, jumping out of their Razorback to pour fire and heavy flamers onto the enemy.

 

3. Rifle Dreadnought = Dread with 2x TL-autocannons. Cheap, and brilliant to take out light transports and infantry. You don't need one, their just very good for their points at what they do. But there are other options, such as the combi-pred (autcannon and lascannon side sponsons) and the Land Speeder Typhoon, it's your choice.

 

4. Vindicators are a brilliant unit, they can threaten pretty much anything in the entire game, and their front armour is tough. However, they do have a short range, offset a bit by being able to move at combat speed and still fire (which they couldn't in 4th ed). As for whether they are good defensively or offensively, their short range would suggest they are best being played aggressively, moving up and blowing things up. But they can be good on the defensive too. If your opponent comes to you, then he will move into range of the Vindicator by turn 2, maybe turn 1 if he goes first. So you can use them in either role. Likewise, a Pred with longer range is looked at as defensive because it can get more shots off, but it can be better in an offensive list than a Vindicator because it will rarely have to move to get those shots off.

[RIGHT-Titan]

Only area I feel I can add on what has been said is Vindicator comments.

 

One of the greatest things about it from my experience, is with the Siege Shield it can sit on the other side of cover terrain like a ruined building or some other equally obscuring terrain. Then if anyone is stupid enough to move within 30" of you, you can crash though the terrain and pop off an ordnance blast that is ST10 AP 2. Goodbye Nob Squad. Goodbye Carni. Goodbye Marines with Captain etc. etc. etc.

 

It has the power to threaten anything and yes 24" is short compared to say a lascanon, but it's big enough on a standard table I find.

[pattison]

...with the Siege Shield it can sit on the other side of cover terrain like a ruined building or some other equally obscuring terrain. Then if anyone is stupid enough to move within 30" of you, you can crash though the terrain and pop off an ordnance blast that is ST10 AP 2. Goodbye Nob Squad. Goodbye Carni. Goodbye Marines with Captain etc. etc. etc.

 

And that's what makes it a great DEFENSIVE unit!!

Don't be afraid to use something the way you like it if you have your own idea!

Your friends will be surprised.

 

Note: There was a rather large tourny last weekend and I saw a chaos player defending with among others 2 vindies for 4 turns and winning easily in turn 5.

In turn 4 he had 0 objectives and the opponent (orks) had 3. At the end of turn 5 he won 1-0, almost 2-0...

[DerekLee688]

1. Rhino's are ment for protection and for transportation. Trying to kill anything with them is wasting points. I'd rather spend ten points on a plasma gun for a tac squad, a siege shield for a vindicator, Multi Melta on an attack bike, or weapon swap on a dread. For the Space Marines of any codex, ten points is alot considering what you can do with it.

 

2. Sternguard don't need a Landraider to do what they were ment to do. Mine hoped out of a rhino yesterday and killed 4 terminators and a chaplain, reloaded and nailed two necron destroyers, and walked around the corner to kill 75% of 15 or so necron warriors. Considering their alternatives, rhinos are their best choice. Especially if you run interferance like a land raider, vindi, and Dread in front of their rhino.

 

3. Rifle dreads have range(48"), accuracy(BS4+twinlinked), and shot power(S:7). The only thing they don't have is AP. That doesn't matter vs. vehicles but agianst everything with a 3+ save or better it costs you shots. I say definatly use them, but their primary targets should be things without saves: walkers/transports/landspeeders and then MC's and infantry.

 

4. I've been usning vindies not knowing they can move 6" then shoot. Regardless, no other unit can cause as much havoc in a single shot than the vindi. It has a 13AV front and 11AV on the sides. I tend to place mine in the middle of the front of my army so that anyone wanting that tender side or rear armor is next to my landraider or dreadnaught. Spending a mere 10pts. gets you the ability to atomaticaly plow into terrain to give it a cover save.

[Newtoncain]

Ok,heres what's up. I want to expand on my black reach box set. I already own one rhino.pedro,and a chaplain.

 

I was thinking about purchasing:Battleforce box set,stern guard,and a vindicator. Which brings me to the following questions.

 

1-I love rhinos B) I think they are cool. Is it worth the points to take all of the little extras,like hunter killer missle and extra armour??

or am I just wasting my time.

2- Why is putting sternguard into a rhino considered a Bad thing??(my local guys are getting on me about this,yet they never seem to pop the tank)

 

3-can somebody tell me what the hell a "Rifle dreadnought" is?? and why do I need one??

As other people have siad, use the aegis defence line kit ACs ($20), If you buy another dread, bet the new Ven one.

I have been up and down the internet trying to find one of these.

 

4-Vindicator- I like it,I have a love of all things that go BOOM!! but Does it work well in a defensive list or should I just add the Dread??

These work best in pairs.

I know these are all pain in the butt questions. But i would rather make an army based on my style of play rather than do what everyone else thinks is "the Most awsome".

When ever i play any miniatures game I have a tendency to Dig in and bring the big guns to bear,only moving up when I clear each enemy in my path.

So there it is,the newbie questions have been asked :P

thanks in advance to anyone who want's to tackle this

later

-7

[IvorTangrean]

I am going to raise a counter argument for upgrading Rhinos. In both of my last two games the hunter killer missile I place on my Rhinos have taken out enemy transports and left my opponent stranded in the middle of the table. I like them not as an alpha strike weapon but as a in case you need it weapon, a lot of people don't expect a rhino to be dangerous so that one missile can often be placed on side or rear armour.

[DerekLee688]

Ok, if your army lacks krack missiles and you have an abundant amount of rhinos etc. then HK's aren't that bad of an idea. A typhoon puts out 2 kracks a turn for 90pts. totaling a min. of ten per game, or you can get nine HK's on various vehicles if you got that many, and fire them all in one turn.

[Koremu]

If you are running Khan or Sicarius, I would point out that Unlimited-Range, Outflanking Krak missiles are almost certainly going to have a side arc, somewhere.

[7Thunders]

First off,I want to thank all of you. It's nice to be on a forum where the help is'nt acting like a bunch of pompous know-it-alls B)

 

"IF" I purchase the battleforce,box,sternguard,and vindicator,my army would look something like this:

 

HQ

Pedro

chaplain/with power fist

 

Troops

Tactical combat squad

Tactical squad (10 guys)

Tactical squad (10 guys)

Scout squad (5guys)

 

Transports:

Rhino/extra armour,hunter killer missle

Rhino-just plain

 

Elites:

terminator squad

Sternguard squad

Dreadnought (from blackreach set)

FAST ATTACK:

Assault squad/combat shield

 

Heavy Support:

Vindicator/siege shield.

 

That should come to about 1460 points.

My plan is to put the sternguard into the rhino along with pedro.

I wanted the scouts to go deep,and use a locator beacon,and have the terminators show up and try and help box the enemy in.

Mean while,one full tactical unit will hang back with the vindicator and the Dread,for up the middle support.

The rest will take up position on any available flanks ,and i will hope to surround the enemy.

...Yea,I know real strategy there huh? :rolleyes: :lol:

But I am still learning so this is the best i could come up with at the moment.

Feel free to tellme what I am doing wrong. UI am not ordering untill wensday any ways B)

[RIGHT-Titan]

Not bad..

 

I'm not a huge fan of scounts.. but I understand why you want them.. The big problem I have with them is the fact that in some games they are low hanging fruit.

 

Easy kill point and not going to really have an impact after the termies are in.

 

I personally would drop them, add a third rhino or get better wargear.

 

What are you fitting on the Tac squads?

 

I personally love melta shots. A Meltagun/Missile Launcher combo on the tac squad gives a relatively cheap heavy punch that can handle a bunch of units with Frag missiles or instakill 2 T4 models it can see/wound. If you add Powerfists or less expensive, a Combi-Melta to your sergeant then you get some more anti-vehicle punch.. Nothing like riding the rhino up to them and popping 2 Melta shots out the top of it.

 

It is a one trick pony but I love it.

 

I'd try if possible to fit a second vindi but if you can't no big deal.

 

I'd probably drop the Extra armor on the rhino.. it's good for keeping it moving but a lot of the time you'll get Penned and it won't matter a lot.. so I'd drop it..plus you only have it on one of them and might either a) forget about it, or :rolleyes: accidentally add it to your other rhino.

 

The HK is a fun surprise for someone's 13AV tank for sure though.. so if it fits amazing. :lol:

 

Are your termies assterms or tacterms? How do you have them fit?

Same question for the Sternguard and how many models in each unit?

 

Solid list.. I just have some questions B)

 

Very good start... Pedro is good from all I hear.. I just am not a huge fan of losing Combat Tactics.. especially with Stern.

 

But that's totally personal.

[angelspast]

You've gotten alot of good advice, so I don't have too much to add...

 

Just a heads up, vindicator is sadly not ordnance and only a large blast.

 

Consider a gating librarian along with sternguard.

[7Thunders]

@right titan: My Tacticals are from the black reach box. So I only have a missle launcher and a flamer on the first group.

 

as for my second tactical unit,I have not decided yet. I have a hell of a hard time with tacticals for some reason.

I always seem to forget about the movement rule,so i tend to move all of my guys,and forget that i can't fire my heavy weapon :)

that's one of my biggest screw ups. :blush:

 

Sternguard.Only 5 of them right now. I was considering taking out the 5man tac squad and converting them to sternguard. I like to use Combi-meltas when i can.

Not too much of a fan of plasma,since the first time I proxied them,I did nothing but blow my self up ;)

 

Terminators: these again are from the black reach set,so they Are pretty plain. I was just going on what i have at the moment. ^_^

To be honest,termies are cool and all but i just don't seem to connect with them.

 

One of my playing partners suggested some "scout bikes" to harrass the enemy. But I have no clue as to how that would fit in.

 

I do not absolutley need to have a "VINDICATOR" if it does'nt fit, then that's just too bad. i would rather have something in there that is going to pull it's partof the work

consistently,in stead of being a one shot wonder.

 

*** I'm pretty easy to play games with.Looking at my army.you can see that there is pretty much nothing in there that i am too utterly attached to.

my opponent can blow up any thing they see fit...........unless it's my sternguard,then I have to make an example out of him :lol: :P ****

[SpecialIssue]

You've gotten alot of good advice, so I don't have too much to add...

 

Just a heads up, vindicator is sadly not ordnance and only a large blast.

 

Consider a gating librarian along with sternguard.

 

The Vindicator's Demolisher cannon is Ordnance, which automatically means that they pop a large blast. Means that they can move, shoot the Dem. cannon (but nothin else) and against vehicles let you roll two dice of AV penetration and pick the highest. Definitive reasons to put them in most lists. Plus, I tend to look at that 24" range as actually 30"- add 6" for the movement you're allowed before shooting.

Like others have said before, I find that they work very well as defensive units as well and area denial.

[DarkGuard]

First off,I want to thank all of you. It's nice to be on a forum where the help is'nt acting like a bunch of pompous know-it-alls ;)

 

"IF" I purchase the battleforce,box,sternguard,and vindicator,my army would look something like this:

 

HQ

Pedro

chaplain/with power fist

 

Troops

Tactical combat squad

Tactical squad (10 guys)

Tactical squad (10 guys)

Scout squad (5guys)

 

Transports:

Rhino/extra armour,hunter killer missle

Rhino-just plain

 

Elites:

terminator squad

Sternguard squad

Dreadnought (from blackreach set)

FAST ATTACK:

Assault squad/combat shield

 

Heavy Support:

Vindicator/siege shield.

 

That should come to about 1460 points.

My plan is to put the sternguard into the rhino along with pedro.

I wanted the scouts to go deep,and use a locator beacon,and have the terminators show up and try and help box the enemy in.

Mean while,one full tactical unit will hang back with the vindicator and the Dread,for up the middle support.

The rest will take up position on any available flanks ,and i will hope to surround the enemy.

...Yea,I know real strategy there huh? :D :)

But I am still learning so this is the best i could come up with at the moment.

Feel free to tellme what I am doing wrong. UI am not ordering untill wensday any ways B)

 

Looks pretty good, just a couple of comments to make, but everything I say can be ignored if you want :)

 

Start with Tacticals, you have a 5 man squad there that looks out of place. It doesn't seem to have upgrades for the Sergeant or a transport? Do you have a particular game plan for it? If not, I'd drop them, you'd still have 2 full scoring units of Marines and the Scouts plus the scoring Sternguard, so you're covered on scoring units. In fact you could probably drop two of your choices from the Troops section and the list would still be good because the Sternguard score with Pedro.

 

Scouts are cool, I quite like them, shotguns on them can make a good harassing unit, and the teleport homer is good for the Termys. If you drop the 5 man Tactical Squad consider investing in a Land Speeder Storm for your Scouts, I'd recommend a HF. Means you can drop them off somewhere far forward in Turn 1, blow up tanks with meltabombs, be a pain, and eventually get Termys down where your opponent doesn't want them.

 

How many men in the Assault Squad? What upgrades? IMO you shouldn't run Assault Squads with less than 10 men, they die too easily otherwise, and a power fist is pretty much a must. Special weapon up to you. I'd consider trying to get them to 10 men if they aren't, or drop them if you can't.

 

The Dread could benefit from a Drop Pod, but IMHO it's fine, it can still move and fire the MM. I just prefer attack bikes to have my MMs for the cost.

 

Chaplain with PF? I take it that's that awesome model? It is nice, but I would consider if you need a second HQ choice at 1500pts. However, as Pedro is cheaper than most special characters, and as Chaplains are cheap it shouldn't matter too much. What unit does he ride with? Reason I ask is that he's best in combat, and the best unit dedicated for combat he can join is the Assault Squad, which he can't keep up with at the moment. Consider dropping him and adding those points to getting something like a....

 

..... 2nd Vindicator. Honestly, 1 Vindicator is a fire magnet, 2 Vindicators are safe, as it's harder to take them out, they both throw out those horrible pie plates, and there is a psychological thought in your opponent over that firepower.

 

Otherwise, it looks like a solid life, best of luck.

[pryor]

FAST ATTACK:

Assault squad/combat shield

 

The Combat Shield isn't really worth it for 5 points considering the ablative wounds provided by the squad.

By all means, leave the shield on the model because 1) you may want to get the Storm Shield later on & 2) it looks awesome!

If your Sgt has the Power Fist (which is good insurance IMHO) consider putting the points to the even better Thunder Hammer.

You hit them & they get back up all groggy if they get up at all!

[RIGHT-Titan]

@right titan: My Tacticals are from the black reach box. So I only have a missle launcher and a flamer on the first group.

 

I'd consider ordering a sprue of meltaguns for 10 bucks off the GW website.. most GW stores will even allow you to do delivery to the store and that way you won't have to put your credit info on the site if you don't want to

 

as for my second tactical unit,I have not decided yet. I have a hell of a hard time with tacticals for some reason.

I always seem to forget about the movement rule,so i tend to move all of my guys,and forget that i can't fire my heavy weapon

that's one of my biggest screw ups.

 

Might just be my confusion but remember if any model in the unit moves the unit can't fire any Heavy weapons.

 

Sternguard.Only 5 of them right now. I was considering taking out the 5man tac squad and converting them to sternguard. I like to use Combi-meltas when i can.

Not too much of a fan of plasma,since the first time I proxied them,I did nothing but blow my self up

 

10 is better for sure imo.. although 5 is not bad at all. I am not a huge fan of plasma.. but there are uses.. if it doesn't work for you, then try combi meltas to get that punch. The ammo choices of the sterns already should give you a good punch against most infantry.

 

Terminators: these again are from the black reach set,so they Are pretty plain. I was just going on what i have at the moment.

To be honest,termies are cool and all but i just don't seem to connect with them.

 

Don't feel you HAVE to take Termies to be effective. I played a game recently where my DS Termies didn't come in until the fight was basically over. So it can be done ;) I converted my AoBR termies to Assault Termies with TH/SS combo, but tac terms are nice just get something to use for The Cyclone Missile Launcher.

 

One of my playing partners suggested some "scout bikes" to harrass the enemy. But I have no clue as to how that would fit in.

 

I hear bikes are a great way to get melta shots in but I can't stand bikes.. just a personal thing.. so I'll leave that one ;)

 

I do not absolutley need to have a "VINDICATOR" if it does'nt fit, then that's just too bad. i would rather have something in there that is going to pull it's partof the work

consistently,in stead of being a one shot wonder.

 

I would actually suggest trying to fit a SECOND Vindicator in your list. It's only 125pts with a siege shield and is an awesome area denial/offensive/defensive weapon. My comment was just that if you really can't fit it, not to stress over it.

 

*** I'm pretty easy to play games with.Looking at my army.you can see that there is pretty much nothing in there that i am too utterly attached to.

my opponent can blow up any thing they see fit...........unless it's my sternguard,then I have to make an example out of him :P :P ****

 

Hope that helps.. I'm not a veteran by any means but I have played a number of games lately and I think I've done ok ;)