Is a command squad with plasma guns a good idea?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

As it says, what do you guys tink of a command squad with 4 plasma guns, company standard and either a thunder hammer or power weapon? since I was thinking of using this in my Pre Heresy Thousand Sons (Finally got the red Scorpians set), the apothocary could help negate "gets hot" and with a librarian in Terminator armour and storm sheild with them, who could use force dome to protect them, put here since whilst using it for my Pre Heresy Thousand Sons, I may use it for my Sallimanders if it works, so what do you tink?

[gil galed]

I don't see why not, sounds pretty cool, and good against all those nasty nid armies you see alot :), do pre heresy TS, so much cooler than sallies

 

~Gil ^_^

[marine]

As much as it's a good idea, should a pre-heresy force use that much plasma, it was supposed big, cumbersome and barely man portable. Although the horus heresy books completely ignore this. I prefer to use plasma cannon models as plasma guns to represent the size problems pre-heresy.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

As much as it's a good idea, should a pre-heresy force use that much plasma, it was supposed big, cumbersome and barely man portable. Although the horus heresy books completely ignore this. I prefer to use plasma cannon models as plasma guns to represent the size problems pre-heresy.

I must admit I thought about that, but in the Horus Heresy art book "Collected visions", there is a picture of a thousand sons "support" squad, about 5-8 guys if I remember correctly, all with what looks like longer then normal Plasma guns, almost rifle like, I dont think I have the skill or parts to convert them, but I may give it a go, I have converted a plasma gun from a bolter and plasma pistol already for this squad, and I have so many plasma pistols it's annoying, kept getting about 10 in the old Blood claw and Grey hunter boxs, really nice idea about the plasma cannons, seems a bit bulky, but is still a nice idea, also what do you think would be better, 2 power weapons or 1 thunder hammer, once I have finished moddelling I will try and post pictures, thank you for the feedback, it is always welcome.

[Montuhotep]

How about combining the ideas? As in a regular plasma gun or your creation mated to the Cannon backpack and feed lines? Gives an air of a 'halfway house' kinda weapon that's still in development, more fitting for the 31st Millennium.

As to the original idea, it's a very sound one; mine regularly eat everything put infront of them, including Termies.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I have a list that runs a Captain with a combi-plasma, a Librarian with Gate of Infinity and a combi-plasma, and four plasma guns. I've only run it once, and it was brutal. Of course, this was a 1000-pt list, so the army had... pretty much nothing else. But it was fun!

 

The trick is to not get carried away by tricking it out (I'll admit, the captain was expensive and unnecessary in the unit, beyond allowing me to actually take the Command Squad in the first place); one good template and they're goners.

[Kronk]

Against other marines and chaos, a squad of plasma gunners is going to get past power armor fairly easy. They had better stay in cover.

 

Plasma is totally worth the risk in my book.

[ShinyRhino]

Sounds like a fun unit to play with, but one that will draw fire like a iron filings to a magnet. I'd be sure to either put them in elevated hard cover as a firebase, or in a Razorback for mobility. You can get a 12" move in with the Razor, diembark, and Rapid Fire all that plasma another 12".

Just be sure to roll all the to-hit rolls for each member of the squad separately, so you're legal. Gets Hot! is done per-model, and if you roll snakeyes for one gunner, you won't lose two models to his ineptitude (plus, you'll get rerolls for his armor saves from the Apothecary).

[kaiserstole20]

I usually attach a gating librarian w/plasma pistol to a 4x plasma gun command squad. It usually does pretty darn well and it's a lot of fun.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I have always been a suporter of 5e comand squads as fire bases. And plasma is one of the best loadouts for that (12 shots (4 at >12" and 8 from rapid fire) will kill a coverless carnifex/hive tirant with dependability, very few things can boast the ability to kill one of those in two turns of shooting, especialy for under 200 pts.)

[Giga]

I like to run a command squad with powerfist and 3 plasmaguns, usually in a rhino or in a razorback.

 

It's certainly not a be-all-end-all sort of unit, but I find it usually does a fine job. It's quite survivable for a 5 men unit, and it's reasonably effective against everything.

 

I also believe plasmagun command squads are currently the best command squad option, since close combat command squads are overly expensive, all meltagun command squads are overshadowed by speeders and attack bikes, and all-flamer command squads are just too specialized.

[DarkGuard]

When I've run a Command Squad I've run them with 4 plasma guns, and they've been able to kill pretty much any unit at range they look at.

 

Now, however, as my Captain is now running around with a Jump Pack, I'm considering changing it to 3 plasma guns and a Company Champion. Power Fist may be better, but it's more expensive, I have enough power fists in the rest of my army and I like the Company Champion. So the unit disembarks, shoots anything that moves, and the Company Champion deals with survivors in combat.

[Wonderbraa]

What are the general thoughts on biker command squads with 4 plasma? Alot of people are suggesting that a 4 plasma command squad works best in heavy cover or in a building so the hiding places will be reduced. Also its quite alot of points for a 5 man squad, but as i fight nearly only chaos and necrons the thought of 4 plasma with FNP and that much mobility is hard to ignore...

[DarkGuard]

What are the general thoughts on biker command squads with 4 plasma? Alot of people are suggesting that a 4 plasma command squad works best in heavy cover or in a building so the hiding places will be reduced. Also its quite alot of points for a 5 man squad, but as i fight nearly only chaos and necrons the thought of 4 plasma with FNP and that much mobility is hard to ignore...

 

Well as I see it plasma guns would be more effective on bikers due to the relentless rule, meaning more damage could be put out from afar, and they could still follow up. However, IMO I would prefer to go for more combat orientated biker command squads. You're putting in points to make them move faster, and while they are more durable in combat a battle cannon will still ruin their day. They can move fast and get into combat by Turn 2, so why not use them like that? I reckon plasma gun foot command squads are preferred so much not just because of FNP, but because unless you get them bikes or a LR (both of which are expensive), it is hard to run them as a dedicated assault unit. They are more likely to more damage jumping out of a Razorback firing plasma then jumping out and firing bolt pistols. Bikes don't have this limitation and so can be geared more towards combat with more effectiveness.

[Giga]

What are the general thoughts on biker command squads with 4 plasma? Alot of people are suggesting that a 4 plasma command squad works best in heavy cover or in a building so the hiding places will be reduced. Also its quite alot of points for a 5 man squad, but as i fight nearly only chaos and necrons the thought of 4 plasma with FNP and that much mobility is hard to ignore...

Too expensive, for only 5 models.

 

Despite T5 and FNP, these guys are still going to get murdered by any high str weapon (str8 or higher inflicts instant death and therefore ignores FNP, and often will be AP3 or better), not to mention completely decimated by high str barrages and the like. This same squad is also extremely vulnerable to plasma.

[Gaz1858]

Given they have a 24" range why not leave the libby out (saving either 100 or 150 points) and just put them in cover in your dep zone. Should give them a 4+ cover save more often than not and saves you some points for something else

[DarkGuard]

Given they have a 24" range why not leave the libby out (saving either 100 or 150 points) and just put them in cover in your dep zone. Should give them a 4+ cover save more often than not and saves you some points for something else

 

Plasma guns are most effective at 12" range though, and they're not really a counter-attacking weapon IMO as they can't assault afterwards (not that you need to assault to effectively counter-attack). Therefore it's best to get these weapons at close where you can double their rate of fire, and therefore their effectiveness. A librarian is one way to get them up close (plus he can support them in myriad ways), although a Razorback can be just as effective and keep them out of harm for the couple of turns that they're in the vehicle.

[Giga]

Given they have a 24" range why not leave the libby out (saving either 100 or 150 points) and just put them in cover in your dep zone. Should give them a 4+ cover save more often than not and saves you some points for something else

I'd keep them out of terrain, myself. If they fail a dangerous terrain test, all they get is a 4+ FNP save, or they die. It's too risky for an expensive unit like that.

[kaiserstole20]

Given they have a 24" range why not leave the libby out (saving either 100 or 150 points) and just put them in cover in your dep zone. Should give them a 4+ cover save more often than not and saves you some points for something else

 

For me the big benefit of having a gating libby is changing the angle. Expensive unit hiding behind a building? Not hiding any more.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The bikeing plasma squad while quite shooty, has reached the point of to expensive (in points) to be worth while. If you realy want them on bikes I would sugest flamers with one or two CC weapons (power fist or lightning claw) with a bike captain. (4 flamers is a lot of templates, which can be followed by a potent charge, if you attach a MoTF also/instead it will be 5 templates). Or meltas for high speed vehicle hunting. The big problem with comand squads on bikes is when you start adding the bikes to the equation they start costing enouph that you would be better off buying other models to do the same thing. Its the same problem with CC comand squads, though they are very killy, by the time you get the upgrades to make them killy, you might as well have just used some terminators. Which is why I prefer the cheeper footsloging comand squad with maxed out special weapons, maybe a lightning claw, and a Rhino/razorback. There is very little else in the codex that can give you such a high concentration of special weapon firepower as cheaply.

[River Black]

I'd keep them out of terrain, myself. If they fail a dangerous terrain test, all they get is a 4+ FNP save, or they die. It's too risky for an expensive unit like that.

 

Bikes dont get a FNP for a dangerous terrain test. If they roll a 1 for the test they take a wound.

[Giga]

I'd keep them out of terrain, myself. If they fail a dangerous terrain test, all they get is a 4+ FNP save, or they die. It's too risky for an expensive unit like that.

 

Bikes dont get a FNP for a dangerous terrain test. If they roll a 1 for the test they take a wound.

Why not?

 

I don't have the rulebook handy, so I can't check, but as far as I remember there's nothing about FNP being unusable against failed dangerous terrain tests.

[Arkios]

I'm pretty sure FNP is unusable if the wound doesn't allow any armour saves at all, and failed dangerous tests disallow armour saves. Gotta grab the book and check it out though.

[Koremu]

... Neither can it {Feel No Pain} be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc).

 

Emphasis and clarity are mine, but as you can see, the FNP entry specifically notes dangerous terrain wounds as disallowing FNP.

[Giga]

Doh, guess you guys are right. ><

 

Well, that's one less reason to use command squads on bikes. :/