A Thousand Sons

[The 13th Goat]

Thousand sons is out, and i think i'm with the rest of you that praises it as one of the better HH novels. However, certain questions have confused me:

 

N

1. ikea On Librarians. GW muddy's the water again, by having Emps ban Librarians. Despite the fact in Fallen Angles (after Nikea), they proudly have 2 at least in the Dark Angles. And Rune Priests are ok, apparently. What is going on?
   
2. Why do they now paint their armour blue? I thought that would be explained. Also, i always thought the Thousand Sons emblem was the snake eating itself, like our transfers supplied in the models box?
   
3. Apparrently all Thousand Sons had powers. But the Ruberic has always emplied that those with psychic powers were magnified, and those without were sealed. :woot:
   

 

Any thoughts

[Ferrus Manus]

1- Yeah, I know. Also, since the Emperor's edicts were never rescinded technically - according to McNeill - all Librarians should be banned post-heresy.

 

2- Both the change of scheme and symbol were to show their reverence for Tzeentch.

 

3- Actually it said that any with little/no powers were turned to dust. Only those of a certain ability level had their powers amplified.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

ikea On Librarians. GW muddy's the water again, by having Emps ban Librarians. Despite the fact in Fallen Angles (after Nikea), they proudly have 2 at least in the Dark Angles. And Rune Priests are ok, apparently. What is going on?

 

Worse. The current fluff on the Siege of Terra (Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace) has lots of BA and IF Librarians involved, and most significantly countering the attempts of the Thousand Sons contingent to breach the Inner Palace. Since this is while the Emperor is still walking around at this point, Nikea is either going to have to be rescinded, fully-trained Librarians are going to have to conveniently spring out of holes in the ground when the plot demands it, or a major rewrite of the Siege of Terra is in the works.

[atin]

isn't there an difference between Librarians and sorceror?

it seems al the spell by the 1K sons are learned by reading books?

Librarians just have them? and train more to get more skilled.

so if i am correct the sorceror's got banned not the libbie's

 

cheers atin

[The 13th Goat]

ikea On Librarians.

 

Ikea on Librarians? Of course! Thats how Emps inforced his mandate: Shoody shelfing for all their scrolls! Curse the High Lords control over the purchasing orders for Legion HQs, and the Emperor's personal love for Swedish design!

:D

[The 13th Goat]

isn't there an difference between Librarians and sorceror?

it seems al the spell by the 1K sons are learned by reading books?

Librarians just have them? and train more to get more skilled.

so if i am correct the sorceror's got banned not the libbie's

 

No, Thousand Son doesn't have them throwing out spells. They prided themselves on knowledge and had tools such as the Enumerations (likened to the focusing litinies modern Librarians use). If you read the book the powers they use are that of the Librarian; natural and from one's self. The exact mandate from the Emperor was:

 

"Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must never again employ any psychic powers."

 

After turning they used spells and enchantments to summon and control the warp. Those that have no powers and become sorcerers have done so via spells, but most had the inherint psychic gene to perform such functions and thus only use spells when they need to channel the warp itself.

[Gree]

[ Those that have no powers and become sorcerers have done so via spells,

 

Those who have no powers got turned into Rubrics remember?

[Gree]

N

1. ikea On Librarians. GW muddy's the water again, by having Emps ban Librarians. Despite the fact in Fallen Angles (after Nikea), they proudly have 2 at least in the Dark Angles.

 
 
It takens time to reach the Dark Angels of the exact descison or the Lion simply did not care.
 

And Rune Priests are ok, apparently.

 
It's because the Wolves don't believe they are psykers.
 
It's stupid I know.
 

Why do they now paint their armour blue? I thought that would be explained.

 
In-joke by Guilliman. He thought it would be hilarious to include a bit of Ultramarine on every Librarian's armor. Cause of the book thing.
 

Apparrently all Thousand Sons had powers. But the Ruberic has always emplied that those with psychic powers were magnified, and those without were sealed. :D

 

Any thoughts

 

It is stated nowhere in the book that all Thousand Sons had powers. Those that did not were simply not important enough.

[Inquisitor Engel]

"Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must never again employ any psychic powers."

 

After turning they used spells and enchantments to summon and control the warp. Those that have no powers and become sorcerers have done so via spells, but most had the inherint psychic gene to perform such functions and thus only use spells when they need to channel the warp itself.

 

But they were still there.

 

It's likely the Emperor just went "Man, since I can't be everywhere at once, I should probably let those loyal to me fight fire with fire..."

[Kodanshi]

the snake eating itself

 

Ouroboros :P

[hmk17]

It is stated nowhere in the book that all Thousand Sons had powers. Those that did not were simply not important enough.

 

Not overtly, no.

 

The majority of them did at one time if not all. Ahriman reflects to Lemuel about this and mentions that at first, none of them were psykers. The powers manifested after a time due to the geneseed of Magnus and shortly thereafter the flesh change began to manifest as well. Many of the Astartes were in suspended animation to stop the change, while some like Ahriman fought it while remaining active. After Magnus' sacrifice, there were only 1000 left alive.

 

Magnus also goes onto point out that all the people of Prospero are psykers at the time he is found. All of them had the ability to shield themselves from the Neurosin or they died (Natural selection at work). Pulling new recruits from the planet to bolster the nearly decimated legion would have been natural. Those recruits would have been psykers. While some were definitely more powerful than others, all the Astartes in his legion would have been psykers in a given cult of Prospero. The glimpses of Shrike show basic unit function with different cults spread amongst units to maximize efficiency. Ahriman also frowns on using their powers so overtly, reminding them that sometime they might have to rely on being "merely Astartes".

 

 

I think GW has been moving to change the whole Rubric thing, as a whole, for awhile now. CSM codex lists the those turned into rubrics as those with "slight to non-existent sorcerous ability" and that those with great sorcerous ability had their "powers augmented". Ahriman and his cabal were then banished. The last time the Thousand Sons are featured is in Wolf's Honour. There, all the TS who die, are reduced to armor and dust; even powerful sorcerers.

 

While we can have the argument of Codex v. BL on canon fluff, both affect each other and have intersected at times. (The most notable instances all being from McNeil's works.)

 

 

As to the Council of Nikea, I was suprised at the change as well. Banning Psyker actiivity and the Librarius was odd given that canon HAD it be a ban on sorcerous practices. A small change as well is that Magnus goes back to Prospero of his own design, not under strict edict of the Emperor as before.

 

I think what we are seeing here is something subtle on the part of McNeil. We all know the events of the Horus Heresy, but the events we know are looked back on through a 10k year old lens of Imperial record. Things will get changed slightly through the lens of time and by the victor. Previous kings get turned into villains by their successors.

 

I suspect that during the Battle of Terra as the Emperor holds back the things in the warp rift, decisions will be made by the Sigilite (under advisement from Sanginius and Khan) that the Librarius is a powerful weapon in the hands of the Imperium and unleashing them will help turn the tide of battle. With the Sigilite dead and the Emperor on the golden throne at the end, the Council of Terra wouldn't argue with results especially if Guilliman was pushing them. Thus a ban on psykers becomes a ban on sorcery and the Librarius finds a home in the Codex Astartes to this day.

 

 

My main thought on all of it is... "There are no wolves on Fenris".

[Gree]

My main thought on all of it is... "There are no wolves on Fenris".

 

From what I understood it was essentially the original settlers mutating because of genetics. Also they seem to be related to the warp, as the tutelaries fled from them. I would not be suprised if the fenrisian scientists did experiments with Chaos.

 

But yes, it puts a whole new perspective on Space Wolves skinning and wearing Fenrisian Wolves as pelts.......

[Lord Tharand]

It's also important to note that this story is told from the point of view of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. What they may perceive as a ban on all psykers may infact just be a ban on sorcerors. I'll bet we get a different story when Prospero Burns comes out.

 

By the time the book starts the Sons have already been dealing with the warp for a long time and it's pretty clear that they're changed because of it. Their little pet tutalaries (sp?) in my mind are just daemons in the warp that they've bent to their will. They perceive them as mystical angelic like beings but should they break through the warp they're probably ugly daemons. As another example, Ahriman often talks about the primordial creator and once you've accepted that you're just one step away from moving to chaos. Even Magnus is corrupted. He often thinks how he has eclipsed his father in power and dreams of more power.

 

In my opinion we're just seeing things through the Thousand Sons lenses, colored as they are.

[A D-B]

It's also important to note that this story is told from the point of view of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. What they may perceive as a ban on all psykers may infact just be a ban on sorcerors. I'll bet we get a different story when Prospero Burns comes out.

 

By the time the book starts the Sons have already been dealing with the warp for a long time and it's pretty clear that they're changed because of it. Their little pet tutalaries (sp?) in my mind are just daemons in the warp that they've bent to their will. They perceive them as mystical angelic like beings but should they break through the warp they're probably ugly daemons. As another example, Ahriman often talks about the primordial creator and once you've accepted that you're just one step away from moving to chaos. Even Magnus is corrupted. He often thinks how he has eclipsed his father in power and dreams of more power.

 

In my opinion we're just seeing things through the Thousand Sons lenses, colored as they are.

 

I'd agree with that, yeah. And the fact it's so subtle (as in, people don't see it right away) is testament to how well it's written, and how insidious the threat really is.

[Draeden]

isn't there an difference between Librarians and sorceror?

it seems al the spell by the 1K sons are learned by reading books?

Librarians just have them? and train more to get more skilled.

so if i am correct the sorceror's got banned not the libbie's

 

cheers atin

 

Worth mentioning this distinction before the conversation goes on too far.

 

The difference between a Psyker and Sorceror isn't how their powers are learnt, it's their power source.

 

A psyker is someone who uses only their own potential to affect the empyreon and the materium.

 

A Sorceror is someone who uses the energies of the empyreon to augment their abilities as a psyker. Effectively you're tapping into other peoples psychic conciousness to make your own stronger.

 

However due to warp-fiends, this practice generally leads to possession or worse. Hence why Sorcerors often make Daemon-Pacts. The Daemon grants the Sorceror safe access to a portion of warp energy beyond their own, and in turn the Sorceror does something for the daemon.

 

That's how I've always viewed it.

[Dark Mechanicum]

isn't there an difference between Librarians and sorceror?

it seems al the spell by the 1K sons are learned by reading books?

Librarians just have them? and train more to get more skilled.

so if i am correct the sorceror's got banned not the libbie's

 

cheers atin

 

Worth mentioning this distinction before the conversation goes on too far.

 

The difference between a Psyker and Sorceror isn't how their powers are learnt, it's their power source.

 

A psyker is someone who uses only their own potential to affect the empyreon and the materium.

 

A Sorceror is someone who uses the energies of the empyreon to augment their abilities as a psyker. Effectively you're tapping into other peoples psychic conciousness to make your own stronger.

 

However due to warp-fiends, this practice generally leads to possession or worse. Hence why Sorcerors often make Daemon-Pacts. The Daemon grants the Sorceror safe access to a portion of warp energy beyond their own, and in turn the Sorceror does something for the daemon.

 

That's how I've always viewed it.

 

Dark Heresy has it described as Psykers are bound to the Emperor, while with sorcery you make deals with Chaos itself with no protection and they get power equivalent to psykers but in using the full power of the warp behind them. Or something like that.

 

Also, on the view of the Thousand Sons, oh yea its from their point of view but the Space Wolf book will also be the same way, everything from their view. Unfortunatly when writing books based on a single legion with them as the protaginists you get only their points of view. I think that is why the Army units and remambrancers too show a different viewpoint.

 

In, A Thousand Sons you have the four main remambrancers who show the difference in what the Thousand Sons think. Good example is when Magnus tells Ahriman to use all the ways possible and they burn out a remembrancer, the survivors go to leave after telling the Thousand Sons that they are monsters for what they did.

 

Oh, I re-read the book and yea. I just got the joke about the Dark Mechanicum and the Titan on Prospero....I want to build one like that now.

[Draeden]

Dark Heresy has it described as Psykers are bound to the Emperor, while with sorcery you make deals with Chaos itself with no protection and they get power equivalent to psykers but in using the full power of the warp behind them. Or something like that.

 

Problem with that is, is last I checked, there were Psykers around long before that Cultist-Emperor showed up. I'm going to have to say that the Dark Heresy reasoning is wrong.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Problem with that is, is last I checked, there were Psykers around long before that Cultist-Emperor showed up. I'm going to have to say that the Dark Heresy reasoning is wrong.

 

Does it have to be wrong? After all, the Black Ships take all psykers to Terra for a purpose. It can easily be interpreted as meaning that all post-Heresy psykers are bound to the Emperor. It doesn't have to be a straight yes/no answer.

 

Also, depending on the exact nature of the Shamans, the Emperor was around well before psykers were. He appears around 8000 BC, whereas psykers only begin to (re)emerge at the start of the Age of Strife.

[Piousservant]

It's also important to note that this story is told from the point of view of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. What they may perceive as a ban on all psykers may infact just be a ban on sorcerors. I'll bet we get a different story when Prospero Burns comes out.

 

By the time the book starts the Sons have already been dealing with the warp for a long time and it's pretty clear that they're changed because of it. Their little pet tutalaries (sp?) in my mind are just daemons in the warp that they've bent to their will. They perceive them as mystical angelic like beings but should they break through the warp they're probably ugly daemons. As another example, Ahriman often talks about the primordial creator and once you've accepted that you're just one step away from moving to chaos. Even Magnus is corrupted. He often thinks how he has eclipsed his father in power and dreams of more power.

 

In my opinion we're just seeing things through the Thousand Sons lenses, colored as they are.

 

Whilst I like your reasoning (and agree in part), on the specific part about Nikea the canonical answer is that the Emperor banned all psykers in the Astartes - he order the closing of the Librarius departments and banned the training of psykers, not just sorcery. That didn't used to be the case (and I personally prefer the original approach, I think it made more sense) but it was retconned from sorcery being banned to all psykers in the Horus Heresy Artbooks. So it isn't even a case of the Sons biased views, in that instance.

 

I actually think that from our perspective the book is quite balanced (reading between the lines), despite being coloured by the Sons views. I still sympathise with the Sons because they were still loyal to the Emperor but at the same time it is quite clear they had slipped a long way down the precipice... I hope Prospero Burns manages to achieve the same kind of balance in it's approach.

[Draeden]

Problem with that is, is last I checked, there were Psykers around long before that Cultist-Emperor showed up. I'm going to have to say that the Dark Heresy reasoning is wrong.

 

Does it have to be wrong? After all, the Black Ships take all psykers to Terra for a purpose. It can easily be interpreted as meaning that all post-Heresy psykers are bound to the Emperor. It doesn't have to be a straight yes/no answer.

 

Also, depending on the exact nature of the Shamans, the Emperor was around well before psykers were. He appears around 8000 BC, whereas psykers only begin to (re)emerge at the start of the Age of Strife.

 

Farseers, Weirdboyz, Old Ones, and any other number of Old One Races that were in existance long before the Emperor. All of them are psykers. And none of them are bound to the Emperor.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It's also important to note that this story is told from the point of view of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. What they may perceive as a ban on all psykers may infact just be a ban on sorcerors. I'll bet we get a different story when Prospero Burns comes out.

 

By the time the book starts the Sons have already been dealing with the warp for a long time and it's pretty clear that they're changed because of it. Their little pet tutalaries (sp?) in my mind are just daemons in the warp that they've bent to their will. They perceive them as mystical angelic like beings but should they break through the warp they're probably ugly daemons. As another example, Ahriman often talks about the primordial creator and once you've accepted that you're just one step away from moving to chaos. Even Magnus is corrupted. He often thinks how he has eclipsed his father in power and dreams of more power.

 

In my opinion we're just seeing things through the Thousand Sons lenses, colored as they are.

 

Whilst I like your reasoning (and agree in part), on the specific part about Nikea the canonical answer is that the Emperor banned all psykers in the Astartes - he order the closing of the Librarius departments and banned the training of psykers, not just sorcery. That didn't used to be the case (and I personally prefer the original approach, I think it made more sense) but it was retconned from sorcery being banned to all psykers in the Horus Heresy Artbooks. So it isn't even a case of the Sons biased views, in that instance.

 

I actually think that from our perspective the book is quite balanced (reading between the lines), despite being coloured by the Sons views. I still sympathise with the Sons because they were still loyal to the Emperor but at the same time it is quite clear they had slipped a long way down the precipice... I hope Prospero Burns manages to achieve the same kind of balance in it's approach.

 

Also, no psykers where to use their powers again; they were to be "common" Battle-Brothers.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Farseers, Weirdboyz, Old Ones, and any other number of Old One Races that were in existance long before the Emperor. All of them are psykers. And none of them are bound to the Emperor.

 

Since Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game for the Imperial Inquisition, I don't think its descriptions of psykers within the Imperium were ever intended to apply to non-Imperial non-human psykers. ;)

[Draeden]

Farseers, Weirdboyz, Old Ones, and any other number of Old One Races that were in existance long before the Emperor. All of them are psykers. And none of them are bound to the Emperor.

 

Since Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game for the Imperial Inquisition, I don't think its descriptions of psykers within the Imperium were ever intended to apply to non-Imperial non-human psykers. B)

 

 

That's my point exactly. The description sounds more like Imperial Propaganda than actual Truth.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Farseers, Weirdboyz, Old Ones, and any other number of Old One Races that were in existance long before the Emperor. All of them are psykers. And none of them are bound to the Emperor.

Since Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game for the Imperial Inquisition, I don't think its descriptions of psykers within the Imperium were ever intended to apply to non-Imperial non-human psykers. :D

That's my point exactly. The description sounds more like Imperial Propaganda than actual Truth.

 

Why does it have to be seen in an absolutist light? Surely it's easy to interpret the entire Dark Heresy quote within its own context and only apply it to Imperial psykers?

 

It's also quite possible for sorcerors to have been around before the Great Crusade. By your current logic, that means 'A Thousand Sons' must be Imperial propaganda rather than actual Truth, since the Thousand Sons sorcery 'issue' could not be true if there were sorcerors beforehand. Or perhaps (like the DH quote) the Thousand Sons problem only applies within the Imperium? :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It's also quite possible for sorcerors to have been around before the Great Crusade.

 

makes me think 'Shaman'.