Powerfists, hardly a musthave for me anymore

[Zhukov]

Yes, although I promised not to come up with any new ideas with the chaos codex anymore, I could not resist my curious mind.

 

 

Part 1; Powerfist on Plague Marines

My powerfists on my Plagues are hardly ever 'their points worth'. First I thought, maybe its just me and I'm using them wrong. However I practicly win almost all of my games, so I looked closer at it.

 

Its 40 points for each powerfist. (champ + fist). What exactly is it supposed to do? Anti armour? Anti MC? Anti walker? Anti character? Anti infantry?

 

Anti armour: I never have problems destroying armour. Obliterators/Princes/meltaguns do this fine. Also if you manage to catch up armour in CC, you also have Kraks.

Anti MC: you should never be in combat with MC's in the first place. Yes that sounds maybe a bit stupid, but it is kinda true in my opinion.

Anti Walker: same, you dont want to be in combat with these. They are ussually slow, so its easily avoidable. Also a powerfist is NOT a reliable way of dealing with. 1 hit, penetrating on a 5 or even a 6 in the case of an Ironclad? No please.

Anti character: how much instakillable characters do you meet in combat? In my case its not many, and if I look at the popular lists in other countries I dont see them that much either.

Anti infantry: too expensive for that I say.

 

Yes of course they can help against all of this. But look at it in this way: Can you not spend the points in a more effecient way? My main problem is the reliability: 2 base WS 4 powerfist attacks are not reliable against anything. Not hitting, or hitting once but failing to wound is very common. (34% chance of doing nothing with 2 powerfist attacks against a WS4 or higher; T6 or lower oponent? Ugh.)

 

One of my most important rules in 40k (for competative play) = Reliability is good. Yes really simple, I know. Keeping it simple is another one!

 

Should you have no powerfists at all in your list then?! Well no. On Berzerkers they are GREAT. WS5, 3 attacks base is a big difference. Not too mention these guys belong into combat. Thats a big difference with Plague Marines (and to a lesser extent normal CSM), they inflict the most damage with their specials.

 

Part 2; Greater Deamon

From one thing came the other, and the Greater Deamon came into my mind. Personally the thing my struck me as being particularly bad about taking a GD was the fact that it means you cant take the powerfists, as you need 2 naked champs, which also increases his cost.

I'll explain it better with the plain facts:

100 points. Takes the place of a champion. 1 champion is not reliable enough, so you must have 2 available. Champions with powerfist arent really an option, as that would set you back another 25 points.

 

What if I would take 2 plain Plague Marine champions as possible hosts? That would make the total cost of the GD 100 + 23 + 15 + 15 = 153.

 

Personally I think the stats of a greater deamon are good. Maybe even reallly good. Its like a normal Deamon Prince. T6, so already MoN on it. 4+ invulnerable, which is as good as 3+/5++ I say. 1 more attack but one less iniative. WS 8 is nice.

 

The biggest drawback you hear from some people (including me) is I think: A deamon Prince does it cheaper and more reliable! Yes, but what if you already have 2 Deamon Princes? Why are the Deamon Princes so expensive in the Deamon codex: because they can take 2 as hq + 3 in heavy support. More = better. More High Toughness wounds into your army, another Target (with awesome damage potential) on the table.

 

Also you dont know when it comes! Well that not neccesarily bad. I mean you dont know when it comes, but neither does your oponent. I'm always glad when my oponents reserves all come on the table in turn 2, no more surprises.

 

Bad mobility. Yes it has no wings. So yes, his total threat range is only 12". However, on the good side he deploys somewhere about half down the field. (deployement, moving up 12" with the rhinos, 2" out of the transports + running). If he comes in the 3rd or 4rd turn the chances or even bigger he even pops up in the middle of the action = win.

 

Well having some ideas about unit setups or a different unit in general is 1 thing. But without putting into a list and having good playtest results its still wortheless. So here is a list where I'm thinking about. Its 1700 points. Its the GT standard here, so thats why probably.

 

Hq

Deamon Prince; Wings, MoN

Deamon Prince; Wings, MoN

Greater Deamon

 

Troops

5 Plague Marines; 2 Plasmaguns

7 Plague Marines; 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, Champ

7 Plague Marines; 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, Champ

8 Berzerkers; Rhino, Champ with Powerfist

 

Heavy Support

2 Obliterators

2 Obliterators

2 Obliterators

 

Essentially I dropped 2x Warptime + 2x Powerfist from my ussual list and included the Greater Deamon. So 4 upgrades, for 1 more stand-alone target.

 

I'm pretty eager to test around with this a bit, unless everybody says things like: 'you are nuts', 'doesnt work', 'get a job' or other things.

 

Either way, comments and discussion highly wellcome! (note, its not about my list, thats only included for the function of an example)

[Hellios]

Well I admit powerfists don't have to be on every unit... my Havocs? errm no although it also depends how you play a unit, I guess if I had assaulty havocs with meltas...

 

I also use Greater Daemons... in my 1kson army and considering how much my "champions" cost, its not really efficient for me although it has probably won games for me... however I could certainly see it being more worthwhile with cheaper sacrifices.

[Zeller]

Interesting read. I've considered trying the GD. It does look like a nasty potential. I chose not to hop on the PF bandwagon when the codex came out so my champs have chain swords with the occasional power weap.

 

I agree that the PF isn't necessarily necessary considering your other force choices. In addition having 2 powerfist attacks is pretty unimpressive. This is even more evident with the Black Templars. One pf attack in a crusader squad. Not worth it.

 

However, I must ask if you will still hold to this despite the new bugs. Considering the number of fexes and other friendly creatures the nids can bring, especially a dsing trygon or two that appear near a flank where your heavy support are not, perhaps a pf or two spread around would be helpful. Then again considering if you charge your champ goes last and you will probably lose more marines than wounds you can inflict on the creature.

[Cruentus Nex]

Power fists strike me as something you give to a unit that you want to be able to handle a multitude of situations. Yeah, you shouldn't be CC'ing a Monsterous Creature, but sometimes they like to come cc you. And if you get a hold of one of those T8 ones, you get to stand there every round of CC and watch him destroy your unit. The PF at least gives you a fighting chance. Even if they're not t8 it can help to reduce the amount of time you have a unit tied up in CC. Particularly if it's a more shooty unit to begin with. Now if you plan on putting the unit in the back field and doing nothing but shooting at long range, the PF will probably never earn it's points, but anything that has to get within small arms range(18-24") is in danger of being charged at some point in the battle. And a str 8 attack certainly won't hurt ya.

 

It could also come in handy against high toughness or multi-wound non-IC characters. Tyranid warriors have multiple wounds(i think ?) and SM Attack Bikes. I'm sure there are some others, but those are the only ones I can think of.

[Corpse.]

I powerfist my plaguemarines because I'm aggressive with them. They often roll into a defense line and, well the next paragraph shares what people prefer.

 

IG armies, I face sentinels that counter charge. These guys are used instead of orgyns for their anti melee. Try rolling a bunch of 6's to hit and it gets frusterating.

 

Ordnance+Walker forces, even eldar do it. (Wraithlord+pair of prisms etc) Its a common two sides of the coin deal. Walkers try to take the stuff that cant beat them up in melee, and the blasters try to pop things that pour out of transports. Even if they can't see them, they can still place the center of the hole over the side of the vehicle that the troops are hiding behind, even with 4+ cover saves there will be casualties and a pinning check.

 

In addition, facing sniper+walker forces is also a big thing, because where there are walkers there is a fire line that is superior to a nurgle players fire line. (If a nurgle player could make a decent fire line.) So facing superior firepower with AP2 str8 or better weapons the main dish they serve, I'm often forced to go in. Even when I use a rhino wall to block fire, even when I do much else. I either am forced to hide or die if I don't use melee as an option.

 

I cannot afford to go a game without a powerfist champion, that I can place in an agile way to take out what I need to remove. A greater daemon popping in? Great! I use that too, in addition to the fists and 2 dreadnoughts I often bring. But either way, in an area with over 500 40k players, and facing tournament lists every other game. (And I do mean lists that have won their worth in cold hard cash or prizes or both) I do not see the use of a power weapon that strikes at initiative 3, or taking none at all.

 

(Edit)

Sniper Forces:

2 Mind War + 3 Wraithlords, kill the fist and charge with the lords. 3(or more) Dreadnoughts+Telion+Vindacre+MotF(HS dreads) force, same thing. Various other ways I do not care to share that can be a sniper style army with walkers. (The other ways are extravagant and malicious on par with what people should really call cheese.)

[Brother Nihm]

The biggest drawback you hear from people (including me) is I think: A deamon Prince does it better and more reliable!

Personally I think that its biggest drawback is its random appearances (unreliable) and lack of mobility. Then there's the lesser drawbacks like its point cost. GD + champion = bad.

 

Do you need fists?

I don't think so. Not if your other selections can handle MC's, Walkers and armour reliably. I always include two in my lists, because I like to be covered.

[the jeske]

the problem with the GD is when you play with someone who plays a reserv or fast moving army . if you run in to eldar or tau he may never see hth [and even with a naked asp champion , x2 considering the build ] is a gamble . of course people will say that runing 2 termicid is gamble too , but that is another thing to talk about.

For me the GD is too uncontrolable , I remember when I first heard about a chaozilla wining a GT [or at least being top chaos] and started testing to living heal out of the build and in the end , I came to the conclusion that runing 2 DPS 3 defilers and more zerkers is just more optimal . I never did test the build with pms [probablly with more plasma with a 50/50 set up] , it may be something interesting . would probablly work less as an assault army and more like a counter one .

 

as the fist goes . yes I wont disagree with the fact that the number of eternal warrior model is bigger then it was at the begining of 5th ed , but still a lot of stuff can still be instant killed [lords, BA HQs , sm HQs , sw hqs and probablly more important nid t4 guys] . of course there is a difference between csm and pms that people sometimes tend to forget [that csm are better at shoting and assaulting] , but I still think that the fist has a place in chaos armies [on most champions at least] . mostlly because when I do believe that MC, HQs and walkers can be avoided to some extant its not always the case [of course csm can be played more agresive then pms , so that does change the game play a bit] and a fist means that even if the unit goes down it puts those important 2-3 wounds on the opposing unit .

 

as you said before Z high str A are all nice and fun , but if a dread/walker has problems with getting in to hth[and it probablly has a pod so this is more or less the same] is a GD that may pop turn 2 when its out of range of stuff a good deal? I understand it with a assault army like a zerker one where one more target is always better , but pms should not be too close to hth , shoting [even double plasma taping ] is less dangerous to them [generally and considering cover in 5th ed] , then ending up with 7 man against a unit with powerfist . even if they win the chance they will drop belowe 5 models is too big [but again am not a math person I maybe wrong here] .

[Zhukov]

At look at it in this way:

If a MC or Walker does manage to catch up in combat with 1 of my Plague Marine squads, then that means he has a lot of them. (someone who only take 2 or 3 wont manage that believe me). In that case he runs an army which is heavily focused on CC/hth. In that case I should have no problems keeping my Princes alive for some additional turns, along with my Zerkers and maybe even Oblits. So: They charge in and rescue the Plagues!

 

Same for the GD actually: Plagues again (but this time intentionally) as a 'pinning unit', GD can help them out.

 

I never did test the build with pms [probablly with more plasma with a 50/50 set up] , it may be something interesting

If you say its not total fail, I'll give it a try heh.

 

the problem with the GD is when you play with someone who plays a reserv or fast moving army . if you run in to eldar or tau he may never see hth

Well the question is, how long are they really fast? I need to pop their transports as quick as possible, as always. Thats also why the Plague are equipped with 2x melta both (yeah I'm dropping my flamers maybe too heh), and the 3x2 Oblits.

Also they really pay for it. Both Eldar and Tau pay so much for their superior transports and mobility that I'm oke with that. Also they tend to trouble with taking out Oblits at range.

 

as you said before Z high str A are all nice and fun , but if a dread/walker has problems with getting in to hth[and it probablly has a pod so this is more or less the same] is a GD that may pop turn 2 when its out of range of stuff a good deal?

Yes its about the same indeed. However an SM army totally works differently. They almost dont have units which they want into combat, so you only have to avoid the Dread. (his other forces probably want to avoid you, unless you play as Guard or Eldar etc).

In the case of SW its different. They also kind of play the same as Chaos. Plus the biggest difference: Dreads their major problem is melta. They cant droppod themselves near a unit with melta. (at least not if they want to survive). A GD does not die instantly when he sees 2 meltas. Same with MC's: Dreads cant handle them, GD can put up a good fight against almost all MC's.

I see the GD as superior to the Dread in terms of what role it furfills.

 

Ah well maybe its not as good as I hope, but I dont think its bad either. Maybe just not as good the usual things.

[the jeske]

Thats also why the Plague are equipped with 2x melta both (yeah I'm dropping my flamers maybe too heh)

cant run away from melta spam . but I would think about runing 50/50 plasma/melta set up or at least test it .

 

 

as the transport vs eldar/tau goes . well I dont like 50/50 chance. yes with 6 oblits we can stun those serpents and falcons, but can we kill them or how many can we kill before the oblits drop to 2-3 models ? [again this has to be tested I never tested a pm semi zylla build] . is it worth for the tau or eldar player to sacrifice a unit to blow up one of our and what does the sacrifice mean[aka how many units do we have to keep near or how many have to redirect shoting for that to happen] ?

thats a lot of question , personally [and again am speaking about my personal view here , not from a view of a tester of this build] is that it aint stable enough . IG becomes "funny" to play against from 1650 up , eldar and tau can run more stuff[not that 1500+ is an ideal points game for those armies] + we have the standard problems with SW/BAs . they are identical as troops go , offten have better or just as good hvy support . our guys at least in theory are more choppy [3MC 2 with fly] , but unlike chaos , SW or BAs dont have to be in short range to win or maybe am just too much in to testing the seth build [and it runs more smooth then a lash/oblit build in 4th ed] .

 

In the end it has to be tested to get more precise data about the build.

 

Yes its about the same indeed. However an SM army totally works differently. They almost dont have units which they want into combat, so you only have to avoid the Dread. (his other forces probably want to avoid you, unless you play as Guard or Eldar etc).

In the case of SW its different. They also kind of play the same as Chaos. Plus the biggest difference: Dreads their major problem is melta. They cant droppod themselves near a unit with melta. (at least not if they want to survive). A GD does not die instantly when he sees 2 meltas. Same with MC's: Dreads cant handle them, GD can put up a good fight against almost all MC's.

I see the GD as superior to the Dread in terms of what role it furfills.

yes that is all true. What I worry about is more about GT meta choices. IF more MC are played then plasmas rule and then no fist and GD on pms suck[because we make our units that are safer in hth less killy and they arent really killy to begin with] , if the meta is more about dread builds [like the BA seth one , vulkan builds , IG and ork too , but those tend not to run walkers] then meltas are better and GD are harder to kill [it also makes nids happy , fewer chances to kill trigons is always good] . So its a choice thing in the end , you pick certain builds and meta them or run a 50/50 build and be ready to counter all [but less effective].

 

right now I cant really test that build , but Ill ask some friends to do it Z.

[Zhukov]

cant run away from melta spam . but I would think about runing 50/50 plasma/melta set up or at least test it

Yeah good point.

 

 

yes that is all true. What I worry about is more about GT meta choices. IF more MC are played then plasmas rule and then no fist and GD on pms suck[because we make our units that are safer in hth less killy and they arent really killy to begin with] , if the meta is more about dread builds [like the BA seth one , vulkan builds , IG and ork too , but those tend not to run walkers] then meltas are better and GD are harder to kill [it also makes nids happy , fewer chances to kill trigons is always good] . So its a choice thing in the end , you pick certain builds and meta them or run a 50/50 build and be ready to counter all [but less effective].

Interesting and very true indeed. I honestly dont know which builds are most popular in our countries at the moment. It sometimes seems like it takes more time for the 'best builds' to reach here.

 

right now I cant really test that build , but Ill ask some friends to do it Z.

That would be very nice Jeske.

[minigun762]

I could see this being better for Plague Marines then CSMs or Berzerkers simply because they're not known for being super tough assaulters. Hell with Blight Grenades, they are usually better off rapid firing into a squad instead of moving to assault.

 

Could it work? I think so, especially if it works alongside the trend to field larger than Termicide squads if need be.