Land Speeder MM+HF

[White Hunter]

So I was building a list and I decided to break from my standard of a squadron of 2 Multimelta+Heavy Flamer speeders. Do you guys think that these speeders need to be run in pairs to be effective, or can they still be effective as 2 individual solo units?

[rat of vengence]

A solo units they are less vunerable and better able to split their fire upon different targets (eg melt a transport then flame the contents).

 

That said, I prefer specialised Landspeeders. It is rare that you move slowly enough to use two heavy weapons, and rarer still that the HF/MM combo is effective against the same target that didn't shred you while you were moving that slowly.

 

RoV

[White Hunter]

sorry to be a noob but what do you mean by "specialised landspeeders"?

[Jackelope King]

To answer your original question, Land Speeders are at their best when you can afford the FOC slots to put them in seperate squadrons, as they're far less vulnerable when not using the squadron rules.

[Koremu]

To answer your original question, Land Speeders are at their best when you can afford the FOC slots to put them in seperate squadrons, as they're far less vulnerable when not using the squadron rules.

Disagree.

 

The advantages of Land Speeder Squadrons are;

 

That hit allocation is done by the owning player, which means that damage hits (especially penetrating hits) can frequently be "stacked" onto one model, leaving the other(s) unharmed. While this obviously works in Squadrons with a pre-set sacrificial Land Speeder, it is no less effective for simply using up damaged Land Speeders.

 

That Cover is calculated as a factor of all three models, which means that if two of your Land Speeders (including your "sacrifice" Speeder and any that are currently shaken) are out of LOS/in Cover, the third gets a Cover Save even if right out in the open.

 

That they are only 1 Kill Point, not 3.

 

All of which make them significantly less vulnerable in game terms.

[Jackelope King]

"Sharing cover" is nice, but unless you're a Tau Piranha and come equiped with your own Disruption Pod, it's not reliable enough in an actual game to matter.

 

Immobilized results count as wrecks are a significant decrease in the survivability of the unit. Even discounting them being open-topped, squadrons are the only vehicles that can be killed on a glance from any weapon in the game. That is huge. And our Speeders are already open topped. So the odds of destroying a speeder on a glancing hit in a squadron are equivalent to destroying any other vehicle on a penetrating hit. Understanding the implications of the vehicle damage table is key to understanding 5th Edition. If you can lose vehicles on a glance to non-AP 1 weapons, you have significantly decreased their survivability. It's that simple.

 

In terms of damage allocation, I'm sorry, but that's a waste of 50 points to take along a skimmer that you plan on not doing anything with just so you can maybe allocate two hits to it if you're lucky.

 

Kill points are irrelevant in 2/3 of games, and lists that try to minimize kill points tend to get stomped anyway. Plus I play Tau as my other army. I'm used to my vehicles literally bleeding kill points. I just make the other guy bleed more. :blush:

 

...

 

Squadrons are nice for packing more firepower into the Force Organization Chart. Without the ability to cram 9 Land Speeders into a list, Marines would start to run out of fire power at high point value games. As is, Marines have a lot of flexibility in the Force Organization Chart, and can put effective forces on the table at most point values. But if you have the choice between running the Speeders as a Squadron and running them individually in seperate Force Organization Slots, run them seperately. The rules don't lie.

[SpecialIssue]

And our Speeders are already open topped. So the odds of destroying a speeder on a glancing hit in a squadron are equivalent to destroying any other vehicle on a penetrating hit.

 

Normal Landspeeder gunships aren't open-topped (though Storms are). Our marines' power armour essentially mean that we're just as well protected as if they were in a fully enclosed cockpit.

[Jackelope King]

Well damn, I've been giving my opponents a free +1 for how long now? Thanks for that.

[Tangamarine]

Well damn, I've been giving my opponents a free +1 for how long now? Thanks for that.

 

Same here

[SpecialIssue]

Yikes.

 

Perhaps the rituals of penitence and a reexamination of the blessed codex might be in order. Never underestimate your Marines!

[rat of vengence]

sorry to be a noob but what do you mean by "specialised landspeeders"?

No, good question. As I said, I rarely find two heavy weapons on a speeder useful (big exception for heavybolter/missiles, which I haven't got but want!) as the limit of 6" movement is crippling to a fast attack vehicle. By specialised I mean run it with a heavy flamer OR a multimelta, not both, or two of the one. Better uses for the points.

 

Koremu, I would totally agree in really big point games, and/or if you are planning on running 6 or so.

 

RoV

[Bartali]

MM/HF Speeders aren't expected to fire both weapons at the same target. You'll normally be moving 12" and firing one

 

The extra weapon gives you more targets to fire at (it's a threat to everything on the table), and helps you survive multiple weapon destroyed

[Koremu]

I don't disagree that Immobilised counting as destroyed is a downside, but how many Land Speeders do you ever see that get immobilised and aren't then summarily destroyed due to being auto-hit and having only limited fire arcs? Immunity to stunned is, in my experience, just as much of a benefit as the loss of Speeders to Immobility.

 

sorry to be a noob but what do you mean by "specialised landspeeders"?

No, good question. As I said, I rarely find two heavy weapons on a speeder useful (big exception for heavybolter/missiles, which I haven't got but want!) as the limit of 6" movement is crippling to a fast attack vehicle. By specialised I mean run it with a heavy flamer OR a multimelta, not both, or two of the one. Better uses for the points.

 

Multi-Weapon Land Speeders are all about the tactical flexibility. You're never planning on firing both weapons - HF/MM Speeders deliberately select two weapons that have expressly different target profiles. You never want to move 6" - it's dangerous and tends to result in death by assault.

 

With Land Speeders, it's safest to never slow down, and never look back.

[Cadarn]

I always run with two MM/HF speeders and run them separately. They're especially good in an all comers army. The only time I would consider running them together is if I needed the FOC slot, or I knew in advance that I would be playing a Kill Point game. The favoured light-armour killers in the game are missile launchers and auto-canons. Auto canons are multi shot and ML often come in groups, meaning the firing unit has a good chance of killing both speeders in one round of shooting. If he has to split his fire then it is far less efficient on his part meaning that he has some tricky choices to make.

 

Have them split also allows me to target separate units, either tanks or units of infantry.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't disagree that Immobilised counting as destroyed is a downside, but how many Land Speeders do you ever see that get immobilised and aren't then summarily destroyed due to being auto-hit and having only limited fire arcs? Immunity to stunned is, in my experience, just as much of a benefit as the loss of Speeders to Immobility.

That's not to mention that on a speeder with a Multi-Melta and/or Heavy Flamer being immobilized almost always reduces it's ability to use its weapons to near zero anyway since they rely upon mobility to make up for the short range of their weapons.

[pattison]

Well damn, I've been giving my opponents a free +1 for how long now? Thanks for that.

 

Same here

 

... and here. DAMN!

[Top Secret]

LMAO, while I knew that normal Landspeeders were not open topped, I cannot tell you the amount of times I read a rule on a 40k forum and went "Oh snap, I've been doing this wrong for X of months!" Haha.

 

For some reason, I was under the impression that only flamers and heavy flamers ignored cover saves, and not every template weapon. Couldn't figure out for the life of me why everyone thought Librarians with Avenger were so good... Doh!

[rat of vengence]

I don't disagree that Immobilised counting as destroyed is a downside, but how many Land Speeders do you ever see that get immobilised and aren't then summarily destroyed due to being auto-hit and having only limited fire arcs? Immunity to stunned is, in my experience, just as much of a benefit as the loss of Speeders to Immobility.

 

sorry to be a noob but what do you mean by "specialised landspeeders"?

No, good question. As I said, I rarely find two heavy weapons on a speeder useful (big exception for heavybolter/missiles, which I haven't got but want!) as the limit of 6" movement is crippling to a fast attack vehicle. By specialised I mean run it with a heavy flamer OR a multimelta, not both, or two of the one. Better uses for the points.

 

Multi-Weapon Land Speeders are all about the tactical flexibility. You're never planning on firing both weapons - HF/MM Speeders deliberately select two weapons that have expressly different target profiles. You never want to move 6" - it's dangerous and tends to result in death by assault.

 

With Land Speeders, it's safest to never slow down, and never look back.

You make good points, and before the Landspeeder Storm, I would have gone with that. It is too hard to look past an outflanking heavy flamer with a cheap scoring/assault unit to get my grilling happening :lol:

 

RoV

[templargdt]

I love the two ship MM/HF Landspeeder squadron, it always performs like a champion for me. The ignore stunned rule is awesome; STR 4 weapons are basically useless against them at that point. Yeah if it's immobilized its dead, but an immobilized speeder is probably nearly useless anyway. The two multimeltas give me excellent odds of a tank kill and I get to any vehicle quickly; the heavy flamers do a real number on infantry, even power armored ones.

[rat of vengence]

You know, all these people extolling the virtues of the MM/HF speeder are making me consider rummaging through my bits box and giving it a go ;)

 

Might have to try it for myself.

 

Anyone with prefered tactics on keeping them alive? I mean other than don't slow down and use terrain where you can? Is keeping them in reserve doable?

 

RoV

[Koremu]

Reserve works as long as the enemy is moving forward onto your position in some manner.

 

Deep Strike works if you have guidance from a Scout Biker unit.

[Giga]

I find squadrons of 3 mm/hf speeders great.

 

They rarely - if ever - die on me (between the fact they're vehicles with two weapons each, that they're mostly hit in close combat on 6+, cover saves, and turbo boosting, they're quite survivable), and their threat range is such that they can effectively murder anything. They move a lot and shoot, and are very nice overall.

 

Keeping them in a squadron is also essential in kill points games, since single speeders are easier to take down then rhinos, and will usually draw more fire anyway.

[DerekLee688]

Idealy I'd have two MM/HF to give best odds on killing a land raider. Last night, mine took three turns of moving trough and arround blocking terrain to put a double die side shot on a predator to make its points back, but it missed all together on hitting the LRC the next turn from less than 12" but he missed his return melta fire. The point is, two would have been perfect.

 

No you won't get to run and fire both weapons, nor would you want to fire both at the same target half of the time. The point of the unit is to nuke armor like nothing else can. 10pts. for a heavy flamer you might or might not need isn't a poor use of points. Generaly this loadout is for standard all commers lists. It's a poor use of 70pts. against necrons and you know you'll play them and only them that day.

[Chengar Qordath]

No you won't get to run and fire both weapons, nor would you want to fire both at the same target half of the time. The point of the unit is to nuke armor like nothing else can. 10pts. for a heavy flamer you might or might not need isn't a poor use of points. Generaly this loadout is for standard all commers lists. It's a poor use of 70pts against necrons and you know you'll play them and only them that day.

Even against Necrons the MM/HF speeder has it's role; the heavy flamer is good at clearing scarab swarms, and the multi-melta can kill tomb spiders and destroyers. If the Necrons are clustered up to take advantage of the Lord's Ressurrection Orb then a heavy flamer template might be able to do a lot of damage, and if a unit is out of the Orb range the Strength 8 on a multi-melta can deny a lot of units their We'll be Back rolls. HF/MM is not at its best against Necrons, but it is still a decent unit, and since the Necrons are supposed to be getting a new Codex in the next year or two a lot of this might change.

[Cadarn]

Anyone with prefered tactics on keeping them alive? I mean other than don't slow down and use terrain where you can? Is keeping them in reserve doable?

 

Reserve can work, but you really need to be getting them out into the field early to pop enemy armour, and keeping them in reserve means you have less chance of this. I use mine in support of other units, especially my Assault Squads. A ten man squad with a couple of HF/MM speeders in support is a fearsome combination. The opponent knows that both are deadly and so must choose which to attack.

 

However, my own suggestion would be: expect them to die. By lowering their risk you are lowering their effectiveness. I'm not saying that they should be sent out to their certain death, but don't be over cautious with them unless you have a very specific purpose. If you want them to act as base protectors, counter attack units or last minute objective contesters then the best thing is to simply keep them out of sight and out of mind. If something is sitting there and not doing anything, then there is a chance your opponent will forget about it until it is too late.