Heavy Havoc usage

[Seahawk]

As in heavy weapons. I've decided I want to plan my Word Bearers around infantry more than vehicles for a while and want to try out my heavy weapon options. What tends to be more efficient? I have 4 heavy bolters, 4 autocannons, 2 launchers, and 2 lascannons to tinker with. So far I've liked 10 men, 4 autocannons and 6 men, 2 launchers 2 lascannons. The heavy bolters are cool but I think anti-infantry work is what the rest of the army does. The autocannons provide some nice utility and transport cracking, while the stronger weapons deal with tougher targets.

 

Should all Havoc squads be higher in numbers to hold their position, or just the autocannon team? Oh, and since all my squads have icons, they can easily call the daemons down to capture the objective they sit on, which people tend to not expect. With the insane amount of outflanking these days, should I spring for a power weapon or not bother, banking on everything to do its job? Thoughts?

[Dan The Deamon]

I've been running 8 havocs, 4 autocannons, one champ with icon of glory.

 

The usefulness of the autocannons is awesome, but that's not so much the topic at hand. In the games i've played with them they have never lost more than 3 marines the entire game. My wounds never bit into the autocannons or the champ.

 

I run the champ dry mainly to save points, but the only thing that has ever reached them in combat were three scouts. I Ignored the scouts during my shooting phase to direct my fire towards another transport, and when the scouts charged basic attacks were enough to destroy them. I run the icon on them in the even I feel deepstriking my oblits nearby is smarter than midfield. Most often they can drop down into the same terrain my havocs are in and lend their fire to the position.

 

If you were to drop bodies on the havocs i'd say go no lower than 6. Usually something in the opponents army can always find a better shot at your havocs than the troops in the midfield. When they do shoot and only kill one member they have effectively wasted their fire. They dropped one marine who never shoots his bolter half the time in lue of killing the more important targets. Keeping the extra bodies on those squads has led most of my opponents to ignore them. Why waste fire when you're only going to kill some basic heavy marines. If you have no models to soak wounds for the heavy weapons i'm ten times as likely to take pot shots at them in the event of limiting your firepower or removing it alltogether.

 

I love my Autocannons, and I love the little meat bags that follow them around.

[minigun762]

Assuming you have all your Heavy slots available, I think I'd rather have fewer, smaller squads. 6 bodies, 3 Heavies and an Icon seem like a very good balance.

 

With your loadouts I'd build units mostly around Autocannons and Missiles.

[Seahawk]

So the sweet numbers are 6-8, gotcha...

 

How about transporting? Worth the points? How about a 6 man unit, two heavies and icon just sitting in their innocent little AV11 pillbox? Or is the downside of shaken/stunned too much to risk, not to mention other things.

[Dan The Deamon]

I give mine a rhino just because i like getting them into cover a lot quicker. After that the rhino either provides 50% cover or rides along with the rest of my troops to provide cover or an alternate ride. For 35 points i find the redundancy, extra moving armor, and turn 1 set up worth it.

 

I've never fielded them inside the transport as i run with 4 autocannons. I don't think i would seeing as all you have to do is shake/stun to take away a turn of shooting. If they are outside the rhino the only way they aren't shooting is if they are dead, in combat, or pinned.

 

The chances of glancing AV11 = no shooting havocs.

[rottenlad]

the only option I've had any success would be a combi weapon on the champ. Usually combi plasma. And I've not used a rhino 4 my havocs but I'm running 2 lascannons and 2 autocannons so ihate to lose a turn of shooting with moving the transport and wut not.

[Zhukov]

I agree with the others. 6-8 man, w/ 3-4 Autocanons. Autocanons are really nice, they are usefull against so much targets; especially transports.

 

If you have the points give them a rhino, dont drop important stuff for it though is my advice.

[Corpse.]

Rhino, havoc launcher (48" danger vehicle).

 

Use 10+ havocs. Sit the non-anti tank havocs behind the rhino for 4+ cover saves (with IoCG).

 

Shoot only at tanks. The vehicles "cover" saves are only granted from LoS from what's firing at it. (pg 62: "Do not count the models that cannot hurt the vehicle")

 

So those 4 models will have tons of ablative wounds perishing on 4+ cover saves and rerolling LD checks. It wont work well if it's just 8 models and 1 dies, and the unit no longer counts as being in cover when more than 5% is out in the open.

 

If you want to fire at units, simply move the rhino out of the way so that the bolter marines can see the target and the enemy gets no cover save from the hard guns. (other than usual circumstances)

 

I advise 11 models, first to trick people into not shooting the rhino (also no havoc launcher if you depend on moving it out of the way). It's a points sink in the long run but if you want to have a dependable and highly durable anti tank unit that will either get attention or be ignored because it's too big of a hassle to shoot down... That is a unit I suggest.

 

11 Havocs: 4 Lascannons, IoCG + rhino = 340 pts (4 lascannon obliterators cost 300 points and die to lascannon-ish weapons on a 5+ inv save, but they can move/do other things but do not have 7 bolter marines backing them up)

 

Give or take, they have advantages/disadvantages. Worse comes to worse, toss them in the rhino and move 12", and fire two lascannons out of the vehicle (when a few die, I'm sure they will get that attention).

 

Tested it only a few times myself. I prefer to put a line of marines in front of them with the lascannon dudes hanging out one side to see vehicles. That way bolter dudes can see the enemies they fire at if they need to. But it could be that standalone unit off near your table edge.

 

 

The other units, 6-8, one marine per gun ratio. Sometimes use two heavy guns in a unit of 5 with a rhino and fire out the top hatch. Thats for smaller games though I say.

 

 

There is also the option of going with plasma/melta/flamer... If your interested in it. (go with chosen though, thats like having those same havocs but with outflank if you pick special guns)

[the jeske]

Give or take, they have advantages/disadvantages. Worse comes to worse, toss them in the rhino and move 12", and fire two lascannons out of the vehicle (when a few die, I'm sure they will get that attention).

if one of them died[because 11 wont fit in to a rhino] and they wont fire after moving 12" and then the 2 will fire only if the tank doesnt get shaken or stuned .

[Zhukov]

Uhh yes shooting with heavy weapons out of a moving vehicle is not possible.

[minigun762]

Rhino seems like a luxury to me. It does have some uses to be sure but unless you just don't need those extra points I'd do without.

[Dan The Deamon]

Dawn of War deployment, worst case Havoc Scenario.

Turn 1 drive up to 12", disembark 2" Run D6" into cover 20" movement from table edge, difficult terrain permitting.

Turn 2 Shoot at least 3 heavy weapons

Turn 3 Shoot at least 3 heavy weapons

Turn 4 Shoot at least 3 heavy weapons

Turn 5 Shoot at least 3 heavy weapons

 

That's only one turn of set up that they would have had to take anyways. Moving onto the board edge 1" into a :cussty spot keeps them from shooting anyways so why not get them into some 4+ cover.

 

Dawn of War deployment worst case Havoc Scenario.

Turn 1 Drive 12" into table edge Sit inside Rhino with heavy weapons

Turn 2 If you didn't get glanced, shoot two heavy weapons

Turn 3 If you didn't get glanced, shoot two heavy weapons

Turn 4 If you didn't get glanced, shoot two heavy weapons

 

You only have a 12" movement on turn one to set up a position. Granted your troops are safe from return fire inside the rhino but if the rhino even gets glanced they aren't shooting. This might be good if you only took 5 havocs and minimal weapons. But the reason to take extra bodies is so they can soak wounds while still dishing out their own heavy fire.

 

Keeping the havocs inside with weapons might work a little better if they weren't heavy, but even then there are troops that can carry two plas/melta inside a rhino, score, and don't take up heavy slots.

 

 

I'm toying with another havoc squad now. I'm thinking about 2 lascannons and a missle launcher or autocannon in around 6-7 bodies. I was doing the math last night and they come in around 210. They are just a little bit cheaper than x 3 oblits but they really don't have their strengths.

[JamesI]

If Havocs aren't armed with lots of flamers/meltas/plasmaguns, I'd leave the rhino at home unless I had spare points for the mobile cover.

[minigun762]

I'm toying with another havoc squad now. I'm thinking about 2 lascannons and a missle launcher or autocannon in around 6-7 bodies. I was doing the math last night and they come in around 210. They are just a little bit cheaper than x 3 oblits but they really don't have their strengths.

 

Honestly its damn near impossible to pair Havocs and Lascannons effectively just because of how expensive they are. Predators and Oblits are the better/cheaper option for Lascannons. Having said that, I have heard of people using 1 Lascannon teams of 5 Chosen. Infiltrate into cover and start blasting side armor. Of course thats outside the scope of this topic.

[Dan The Deamon]

Yeah that's sort of what I ran into. I like the flexibility of the havocs + Rhino to be able to capture whichever cover i need to get them shooting from turn 1. It's something that is a little more difficult with the oblits, but the oblits do the shooting better for a lot cheaper.

[Seahawk]

What would be the maths (not that it matters) for doing actual damage to an Eldar Falcon with 4 autocannons? Scenario 1: not moving fast, holo-fields; Scenario 2: 4+ cover, holofields; Scenario 3: not moving fast; Scenario 4: moving fast. My other squads can deal with heavier targets close in, these maths are just for thought, whether I should take both the 8-man autocannons and 6 man las's and rockets.

[Requiemnex]

I just kind of skimmed this article but i am a pretty exclusive Havoc user.. A lot of people argue they dont see their points back... I would have to disagree.. RARELY do i play them that they dont get their points back..

 

8 guys w/ 4 HW + icon or 6 guys w/ 3 HW + Icon.

 

6 guys is really not that great.. played around with it.. Usually they get shot at with long range barrage weapons or ordinance. Soo.. Odds are you are taking hits on the full squad and it is pretty easy to knock down 2 and force the leadership check.. The last thing you want is to have to run your 200 pt+ squad off the table or make them worthless for a turn.

 

I usually find a piece of terrain that they have a good vantage point from.. Nice wide open area.. Use either 4 autocannons or 3 missile launchers and 1 autocannon. Either build has slightly different roles. 8 shots from the autocannons can be a devistating blow when you are hitting most things on 3s and wounding on 2s. Or Glancing the hell out of tanks. Even getting in a pen or two. The missile launchers can be used to glance the hell out of landraiders and also kill marines outright. All depends on your play.. Recently I started using the icons because the 10 points is well worth keeping your 200 point squad on the table. You will find that you dont remove too many wounds before you are breaking into the icon or the weapons themselves. Also sometimes allocating wounds can be a great thing for them.

[minigun762]

What would be the maths (not that it matters) for doing actual damage to an Eldar Falcon with 4 autocannons? Scenario 1: not moving fast, holo-fields; Scenario 2: 4+ cover, holofields; Scenario 3: not moving fast; Scenario 4: moving fast. My other squads can deal with heavier targets close in, these maths are just for thought, whether I should take both the 8-man autocannons and 6 man las's and rockets.

 

I can try to do some of those. Honestly I'm not sure how to properly math-hammer the holofield (its the one where you roll 2 dice and take the lowest right?)

 

8 S7 shots vs AV12 (nothing special) = 5.34 hits = 0.88 glances + 0.88 penetrating hits

8 S7 shots vs AV12 (4+) = 5.34 hits = 2.67 hits after cover = 0.44 glances + 0.44 penetrating hits

 

So rough estimates are that you would get around 1 glance and 1 pen against a normal Falcon and you should get 1 glance or pen against a turboboosting Falcon.