Interesting confirmation on the Emperor's diabolic dabblings

[Dammeron]

WARNING:

 

- There will be VERY SIGNIFICANT SPOILERS in this thread for anyone who has not read "A Thousand Sons."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't yet finished this book, and it's already standing out as one of the most well written and conceived in the HH series. I'm thoroughly impressed by the presentation of the Thousand Sons legion, the modus operandi of their psychic powers, their sheer humanity. Most impressive of all is Ahriman, the dark sorcerer himself, who is humane to the point where one wonders how he even functions in the role of a Space Marine. Me like.

 

Now, what piqued my interest last night was a small reference on page 176, in which Magnus makes reference to The Emperor's prior dabblings with the diabolic. The implication is that the Emperor bartered with Warp Entities in the past for some share of his power; a claim that has uncomfortable resonances with a similar one made by said entities themselves when Horus is in the midst of his delirium in False Gods.

 

It certainly makes things more interesting if indeed the Emperor's owes a significant amount of his power and influence to the very creatures he is now bent on eradicating, and begs the question as to what his true motives actually are. I, for one, find it interesting that despite the public secularism of the early Imperial Creed, the Emperor chooses to appear and market himself in a manner that is bound to evoke superstitious reverence. This is not a foolish or ignorant man we are discussing: he is supposed to be the intellectual and physical pinnacle of all humanity. Yet, he doesn't seem to know a great deal about basic human psychology....funny that. It would certainly make my day if there is implication in the series, not outright statement, but implication, that the Emperor's motives may be no more benign or humanitarian than those of the Chaos Gods. Given the ease with which he allows entire planetary populations to be slaughtered, it isn't difficult to conceive of such a circumstance.

[kickingbird]

Interesting thought. Who knows maybe the Emperor was planning on making himself the god of humankind. Makes you wonder why he had such a xenophobic policy towards anything that wasnt human. I mean I know that its a violent existance in 40k, with every race striving to out do the other, but the Tau seem to strive to coexist pritty well. When did humans become so xenophobic, was it just the Emperors teachings?

[Captain-Plonker]

I think it has a great deal to do with the Emperor, yes. The interex got on well enough with alien races, or at least tried to, and they were humans.

[Legatus]

Makes you wonder why he had such a xenophobic policy towards anything that wasnt human.

I figure that the attacks by Orks, Hrud, Eldar Corsairs, Enslavers etc. on the secluded worlds of the humans probably had to do with it. In case you are not familiar with the history of the Imperium and the Great Crusade, this is what happened in a nutshell:

 

- Prior to M30: Humans learn to travel the warp and populate countless worlds all over the galaxy

 

- The warp grows more and more turbulent, until warp travel is not possible anymore at all. The worlds populated by humans are now separated without any means to contact or travel to other worlds. Many of the worlds are conquered or raided by xenos.

 

- ca. M310/M31: Slaanesh is born, and the eruption of his birth calms the warp, making warp travel possible again. The Emperor sets forth to reunite the worlds that had been lost.

 

 

Now, what piqued my interest last night was a small reference on page 176, in which Magnus makes reference to The Emperor's prior dabblings with the diabolic. The implication is that the Emperor bartered with Warp Entities in the past for some share of his power; a claim that has uncomfortable resonances with a similar one made by said entities themselves when Horus is in the midst of his delirium in False Gods.

So, we have mischievous warp entities that corrupt and seduce living beings to do their bidding, and we have the established canon that Horus and Magnus ended up siding with them. Was the explanation that they are manipulating Horus and Magnus to get them on their side just too obvious for you? :cuss

 

In one of the scenes in "False Gods" the book blatantly described how at one moment, after Horus's guide through his vision had just persuaded Horus to go on and learn about "the truth", Horus briefly sees his blurring reflection on a metal door and thought he saw a reptilian grin on his face. The author could hardly have made it more clear what was going on.

[Clewz]

WARNING:

 

 

It certainly makes things more interesting if indeed the Emperor's owes a significant amount of his power and influence to the very creatures he is now bent on eradicating, and begs the question as to what his true motives actually are.

 

Its definitely an interesting thought. 'The last Church' definitely shows hes not as pure as he has been made out to be. One question that always creeps into my mind when reading the heresy novels is why has he kept his full knowledge of chaos from the primarchs?

[Dammeron]

What I found most interesting about the reference is that it is not an accusation on Magnus's part: whereas the Warp entities manipulating Horus were clearly lying or misrepresenting the facts for their own benefit, Magnus's reference to the same claim takes place whilst he is still entirely loyal to his Father, in point of fact, the implication is that the Emperor told him explicitly about these dealings whilst tutoring him in the traversing and manipulation of the Warp. This does, of course, throw up something of an inconcistency in the HH novels: Horus is somewhat put out by this revelation, as if it is something damning on his Father's behalf, whereas Magnus just accepts it as a part of his vaunted Father's clever manipulation of the Warp and its predators. It does seem from reading A Thousand Sons that Magnus is much higher in his Father's esteem and trust in many ways than Horus was. Though Horus was the official "First Son" and eventually Warmaster of the Great Crusade, Magnus seems to have been made privy to secrets that no other Primarch was, owing to his unique affinity with the Warp, powers of foresight etc.

[Legatus]

I find that unlikely, since supposedly the Emperor has explicitely forbidden Magnus to dabble in the dark arts. That is pretty much the opposite of conveying secret information to him. Plus, I also find it unlikely that Tzeentch just so happened to spontaneously intervene as Magnus was struck down by Russ. He probably had been working towards that for quite some time. Magnus was dealing with forces that were more than he could handle. He thought otherwise, and the Emperor tried to shield him (ineffetively, by telling him to stay away from it). Magnus's intentions were good, but a sinister architect of fate was able to use him none the less.

[Ashe Darke]

Well he was the only psychic primarch (

although it does imply Russ has some measure of psychic powers

) and considering how potent Magnus is I'm not surprised the Emperor gave him some one on one tutoring in the ways of the force. As for the other primarchs not being told, well they probably lack the understanding of the warp that Magnus has and probably wouldn't deal with the news as well he would.

 

 

I found the bit about how Magnus said he was on the verge of surpassing the Emperor in his abilities very interesting. This would probably make him one of the most powerful psykers now.

 

 

Hey Legatus man, spoilers.

[Captain-Plonker]

Well he was the only psychic primarch

 

Not so sure about that myself.

 

A number of the Primarchs have visions of the future, as I recall, including Konrad Curze, who supposedly had even greater foresight than the Emperor.

 

Russ' actions in the book seem to indicate that he too may have some unrealised psychic abilities. Man, would he feel like a hypocrite if somebody told him.

 

Magnus was not the only psyker, I think. I believe he was merely the only totally overt psyker amongst the primarchs.

 

Lots of special skills the primarchs have could potentially be attributed to some form of psychic ability. For example it could be argued that Horus' strange ability to befriend just about everyone could be derived from some kind of empathic power.

 

Not saying they definitely HAVE psychic powers, but they could, and it can be argued that they do.

[Ashe Darke]

Aye, I was thinking that just as I typed it. Magnus was said openly to be the only primarch to be a psyker though that was the point I was getting at. He also seems to be the only one aware of any powers they might have. When you think psyker primarch you think Magnus. I'm pretty sure Ferrus Manus had some degree of psychic abilities as well what with his ability to manipulate metal with his hands etc.

[Hfran Morkai]

But didn't the Thousand Sons try to ascend from human emotions with their emmanuations (or whatever, brain not functioning properly) That doesn't remind me of humanity, they're fighting what defines us as what we are, whilst playing around with things they really should be leaving alone.

 

But to the main point, we don't really know, all we know is the Emperor has the "gift" of being able to utilize the warp, for what reasons shall remain a mystery but I personally believe it to all be a grand scheme, I think he knew the Heresy would occur and couldn't do anything about it for to do so would be a very bad idea.

[Draeden]

On Primarchs and Psykers, I actually made a topic in the Hours Heresy board a while back asking just that and the general consensus was that all Primarchs are psykers, it's just most did not practice their talents whilst Magnus geared himself full tilt towards Psyker Gifts.

 

And I've been a long believer in the Emperor being a Cultist that spurned his masters after getting a measure of their power.

 

At my local games workshop, it is a generally agreed between myself, one of the red shirts and some other players that Magnus had enough raw power to match the Emperor whilst Ahriman, being not as strong, had a lot more finese with his powers, putting Magnus, Emperor and Ahriman up there are pretty much the strongest psykers. (Not sure how Eldrad would fit into it all but well, he's a nancy-boy-space-elf).

 

Now, putting that down to Ahriman just being able to be overwhelmed if the time came to it, the Emperors only real threat was from Magnus. If the Emperor gained his powers from convorting with Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, then the risk that one of his sons, already gifted to come close to his power, started convorting with the exact same powers which would allow him to easily supersceed the Emperor... well now, I just find it a bit funny that the Emperor started trying to shut down Magnus even though the Emperor permitted some psykers to actively practice their powers (Eg, Malcador, who despite being a powerful psyker couldn't rival the Emperors power)

[Legatus]

I just read "The Last Church". Funny how McNeill is referencing a lot of arguments from Dawkins or Hitchens.

 

Also curious that "A Thousand Sons", "False Gods" and "The Last Church" which have been cited in this thread for a possible sinister side to the Emperor were all written by Graham McNeill.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

general consensus was that all Primarchs are psykers, it's just most did not practice their talents whilst Magnus geared himself full tilt towards Psyker Gifts.

 

Unless they were Untouchables, all humans, Primarchs and Space Marines are psychic to a degree. It's just most are not psychic enough that powers begin to manifest. Perhaps some of the Primarchs became psykers as they grew up, in the same way that youths taken by the Black Ships have had their powers manifest as they grew older?

 

The implication is that the Emperor bartered with Warp Entities in the past for some share of his power; a claim that has uncomfortable resonances with a similar one made by said entities themselves when Horus is in the midst of his delirium in False Gods.

 

Slight side note - isn't Horus' pact made after his delirium, when he sacrifices Ing Mae Sing?

 

I'm loving the implication that the Emperor went Godfather-style to the Chaos Gods as most do now, rather than the deal being made by near-equals or even the other way round. ;)

 

Let's face it, if you've got the guts to deal with the devil to get what you want, backstab the devil, try to kill his followers and then try to barricade him in Hell, it's safe to assume all the other usual aspects of dealing with the Chaos Gods aren't certain either. :(

[Ashe Darke]

Now, putting that down to Ahriman just being able to be overwhelmed if the time came to it, the Emperors only real threat was from Magnus. If the Emperor gained his powers from convorting with Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, then the risk that one of his sons, already gifted to come close to his power, started convorting with the exact same powers which would allow him to easily supersceed the Emperor... well now, I just find it a bit funny that the Emperor started trying to shut down Magnus even though the Emperor permitted some psykers to actively practice their powers (Eg, Malcador, who despite being a powerful psyker couldn't rival the Emperors power)

I'd not considered that, that's very interesting.

 

I just read "The Last Church". Funny how McNeill is referencing a lot of arguments from Dawkins or Hitchens.

 

Also curious that "A Thousand Sons", "False Gods" and "The Last Church" which have been cited in this thread for a possible sinister side to the Emperor were all written by Graham McNeill.

The Last Church finally convinced me that his crusade was a bad idea. I'd always felt that maybe compliance on some worlds was hard to achieve because the Emperor wasn't with them to help bolster their point and maybe the crusade wouldn't be so 'join us or die' (which I don't like that they did) but seen as the Emperor himself can't convince a priest to join him then they clearly can't bring everyone into the Imperium. Killing anyone who won't just doesn't sit well with me, hence why I don't think his crusade was a good thing.

[Captain-Plonker]

I really don't think the Emperor was any better than the Chaos Gods, to be honest.

 

He's downright evil at points, I remember a powerful psyker in Legion refers to him as a 'bloodthirsty b*****d', having met him centuries previously.

 

And, to be honest, his hatred for all non-humans really just makes me think of Nazis.

 

A lot of alien races were probably willing to be left alone, or even join the Imperium, but the Emperor just says 'if it ain't human, kill it'. Even though, it could be argued, he isn't human.

[Dark Mechanicum]

'The Last Church' a very good piece of pre-crusade showing very interesting in how the Emperor is portrayed, After Ullanor you have the short story Wolf at the Door which is pretty much that "Join us or Die" motif in the Standard Procedure of the Space Wolves is that, shake our hand or we bring down the house. That's Mike Lee for the Space Wolves on that one, so not just Mcneil in the Emperor is a cold hearted bastard. Even Matthew Farrer who wrote 'After De'shea' the Angron novel shows the Emperor wouldn't even help out the son that wants to stay with his soldiers and fight.

[Legatus]

A few Black Library tales and for some people the whole picture becomes skewed. The Emperor might have been ruthless in achieving his goal of a united and safe humankind, but in the end that was his goal. The goal of the Chaos Gods, on the other hand, is pain, suffering and eternal damnation for every living creature. No, I don't see how the two are compareable, or two different shades of grey. One is trying to be white, but viewing mankind as a very broad picture and being prepared to sacrifice humans to achieve the greater goal (think the first han emperor in "Hero"). The other is pitch black.

[Ashe Darke]

Yeah but what does uniting mankind under himself achieve? It doesn't protect them from Chaos as far as I can figure out. At that point more people probably died from the Imperium than from Chaos gods.

 

Sure he had some ultimate plan but it's not been mentioned what it is. Something to do with the webway and uniting mankind but like I said I don't know why he was trying to do them, what he thought it would achieve in the grand scheme of things. While I don't think he was a great guy I will never fully commit to that as the grander picture has not been explained, who knows it might have been, an ends justifies the means situation maybe, but I doubt GW will ever explain what his plan was fully and without that one can't make a fair judgement of his actions. But working on what we do know one can hardly call him a saint.

[Legatus]

Earlier fluff (from 2nd and onwards) has usually focused more on the threats from the physical realm when they described the Great Crusade. Chaos was not the main issue there, perhaps in the form of a few cults on some of the worlds. The concern was more that the separated and secluded worlds were unable to defend themselves from alien attacks without the help of other worlds. The current day world of 40K is proof of that. Whenever there is a major conflict there are outside imperial reinforcements involved, in the form of the Imperial Guard or the Marines. Worlds are not able to defend themsleves against bigger Waaaghs or Eldar raids with just their PDF. Only the united Imperium could ensure that the worlds were not slowly picked off one by one untill almost no traces of mankind were left in the galaxy.

[Draeden]

Earlier fluff (from 2nd and onwards) has usually focused more on the threats from the physical realm when they described the Great Crusade. Chaos was not the main issue there, perhaps in the form of a few cults on some of the worlds. The concern was more that the separated and secluded worlds were unable to defend themselves from alien attacks without the help of other worlds. The current day world of 40K is proof of that. Whenever there is a major conflict there are outside imperial reinforcements involved, in the form of the Imperial Guard or the Marines. Worlds are not able to defend themsleves against bigger Waaaghs or Eldar raids with just their PDF. Only the united Imperium could ensure that the worlds were not slowly picked off one by one untill almost no traces of mankind were left in the galaxy.

 

 

Wasn't that also back in the day when the Emperor was all the Shamans of Earth joining one giant suicide cult?

 

Looking at things like Star Child and what not, I can't help but imagine that the Emperors grand plan was to make Humanity believe in him so much that when he pulled a Sigmar and hopped naked into the warp, he'd effectively possess every human alive giving him an entire race of obediant psykers to do with as he wished...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yeah but what does uniting mankind under himself achieve? It doesn't protect them from Chaos as far as I can figure out. At that point more people probably died from the Imperium than from Chaos gods.

 

Given that the Chaos Gods were partly responsible for making the Imperium as it is now (rather than as the Emperor intended), I'm not sure you can separate "death by Imperium" from "death by Chaos Gods" any more.

[Legatus]

Wasn't that also back in the day when the Emperor was all the Shamans of Earth joining one giant suicide cult?

The background was probably devised at that time, but it has been the official history of the Imperium ever since, and is described in the 5th Edition Rulebook as well as the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines.

 

 

Dark Ange of Technology (c.M18 - c.M23)

Mankind realises its destiny amongst the stars, colonising world after world at a rapacious pace. Warp space is tamed and the first alien races subjugated. An age of expansion and plenty begins. Psykers emerge amid the race of Man, and attention of the dread powers is drawn towards humanity.

 

Age of Strife (c.M23 - c.M31)

A time of barbarism and collapse. Mankind's holdings are fragmented and isolated by Warp storms of unprecedented ferocity. Brother wars against brother for the control of humanity's dominions. Weakened through over-reliance on technology, civilisation collapses into anarchy. Mankind is mercilessly beset. Untold thousands of planets and colonies are destroyed by Daemons or subjugated by aliens.

 

c.M31 The Great Crusades

The Emperor emerges from the anarchy of sundered terra and creates the first Space Marines. Through campaigns unnumbered and strife untold the Emperor's legions unite Mankind under his beneficient leadership. So is born the Imperium of Man.

5th Edition Rulebook, page 122.

 

 

The earliest days of Mankind's expansion to the stars is a time of dark myth and legend, unremembered by all save the Emperor of mankind. Terrible wars and anarchy engulfed the galaxy at this time, and human civilisation fragmented, alien races and vile creatures of the Warp seized their chance to plunder unprotected worlds and enslave their populations. Planets were sacked, their peoples slaughtered, and those that survived the onslaught were dragged into barbarism. Alone and beset by internal strife, the human worlds that survived were pitiful shadows of what they had once been. Humanity was on the brink of anihilation and never more were great heroes needed to stave off the hordes of darkness.

 

From the ashes of the Age of Strife arose a mighty leader, the man who would be known only as the Emperor. His origins are unrecorded and unknown, but it was on Terra, the cradle of humanity, that he founded an empire that would unite the worlds of the galaxy.

5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 6.

 

 

Edit: It is pretty much as the Emperor explains in "The Last Church". He has seen the possible future of mankind, and the only way to save them was to unite them. They were "on the brink of anihilation" due to being separated by the warp storms, and they had descended in to barbarism for the most part, which means the worlds would not have formed strong bonds and united against common enemies on their own. According to older fluff, though I don't think it is explained in newer sources anymore, the Emperor had been around for many millenia before, but chose never to reveal himself. It was at this time that he decided to take matters into his own hands and start to create the Imperium of Man. He could have done so probably much easier during the Dark Ange of Technology, but mankind did not need guidance at that time.

[Ashe Darke]

Earlier fluff (from 2nd and onwards) has usually focused more on the threats from the physical realm when they described the Great Crusade. Chaos was not the main issue there, perhaps in the form of a few cults on some of the worlds. The concern was more that the separated and secluded worlds were unable to defend themselves from alien attacks without the help of other worlds. The current day world of 40K is proof of that. Whenever there is a major conflict there are outside imperial reinforcements involved, in the form of the Imperial Guard or the Marines. Worlds are not able to defend themsleves against bigger Waaaghs or Eldar raids with just their PDF. Only the united Imperium could ensure that the worlds were not slowly picked off one by one untill almost no traces of mankind were left in the galaxy.

That aside he still was trying to reunite mankind. Why? What does he care about them? Does something special happen if he does reunite them? If he just wanted to keep them safe why not just build up a huge army and kill all the xenos rather than claiming each world while adopting a 'join us or die attitude'. I just wanna know why leaving a world that is fully capable of defending itself against invaders being left alone would be detrimental to the rest of mankind? Are they concerned that without the watchful eye of the Imperium on them that they might turn to Chaos or consort with xenos? Because that happens under the Imperium anyway. In short they have yet to explain why things had to be so 'pure' and why they couldn't just leave some planets alone and until they adequately explain that I can't think of him as a good guy.

 

Personally I've always felt the Chaos was his true enemy, sure there are xenos out there but they're just in the way and inconsequential compared to the power of Chaos. Well at the time anyway, there's a whole new bunch of enemies to the Imperium now.

[Yogi]

Its Grim dark for a reason. No one is a nice guy. Not even E. My way or Die is reasonable in 40k. Normally its just die.