Interesting confirmation on the Emperor's diabolic dabblings

[Legatus]

I just wanna know why leaving a world that is fully capable of defending itself against invaders being left alone would be detrimental to the rest of mankind?

I have doubts that such a world exists. Armageddon is one of the best defended worlds in teh Imperium, and they were not able to defend themselves alone against a Chaos attack or a massive Waaagh. Also, the reason why it makes sense for a world to be part of a united Imperium is not just so that the Imperial forces can then protect that world, but also that the World will now contribute to the protection of others. Each member of a group at teh same time benefits from teh groups protection and at the same time helps strengthening the ranks to protect others. "unitied we stand, divided we fall." Does that not sound sensible?

I guess the Emperor could have just traveled from world to world and ask who wanted to join a galaxy wide federation of planets. But that would not have accomplished that much, would it?

[Ashe Darke]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone? At least if he left them alive they would put up a fight against invaders. By forcing them into compliance you're left with a world that resents the Imperium and will probably end up causing more hassle than it is worth in the long run. Look at the planets that rebelled against Imperial rule in the HH books. By leaving them alone sure they might have died but they would have died from the Imperium anyway and they wouldn't have to deal with the hassle of insurgencies, potentially coming back to enforce compliance or worse yet end up with something like Isstvan or Davin where they turned to Chaos. Sure they might have gone that way anyway but they're not your problem, you don't have to come back there.

 

Sure grouping planets together to stand together is good but it's the method in which he did it which is my problem. Maybe there was a reason but we don't know, and he didn't manage to see his plan through to the end so we can only judge him on what he did, which was bully the galaxy.

[Legatus]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

The sinister side of the Emperor, makes a fair bit of sense, the analogy of making a deal with the devil and then backstabbing him seems more and more like what the Emperor did, but a rather uncomfortable question arises.

If the Emperor made a deal with chaos, where does that leave the Grey Knights?

Also, has anyone else ever thought that the Emperor and Chaos gods reminded them of Mafia Dons?

[Clewz]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

 

 

Seems more likely that Horus declared all out war on them considering the imperiums view on compliance.

[Legatus]

According to the Lexicanum the Horus Heresy began shortly after the imperial forces had left the Interex.

[Mr. Sandbot]

The sinister side of the Emperor, makes a fair bit of sense, the analogy of making a deal with the devil and then backstabbing him seems more and more like what the Emperor did, but a rather uncomfortable question arises.

If the Emperor made a deal with chaos, where does that leave the Grey Knights?

Also, has anyone else ever thought that the Emperor and Chaos gods reminded them of Mafia Dons?

Oddly enough, since my film professor is showing the God-father every other second, that analogy came to mind as well.

The Grey Knights I think would be no different than one chaos champion killing another, its just that the Emperor used his god powers to specialize his champions against forces of chaos (Like Malaal) while the other Gods used their powers to make their minions grow extra limbs/rot/go berserk/go :tu: near a guitar.

[randian]

Lots of special skills the primarchs have could potentially be attributed to some form of psychic ability. For example it could be argued that Horus' strange ability to befriend just about everyone could be derived from some kind of empathic power.

I think it hardly unreasonable to say that the Primarchs apparent ability to shrug off tank shells and cut through vehicle armor with a sword couldn't possibly be a natural property of their bodies, but is in fact a passive psychic ability.

[Captain-Plonker]

Could also be down to Imperial propaganda and tales growing with the telling...

 

Leman Russ: I'm Leman Russ.

 

Soldier: You're not him, Leman Russ is 16 feet tall!

 

Leman Russ: Aye, I've heard. And if he were here, he'd kill the greenskins with fireballs from his eyes, and lightning bolts from his arse!

[Hellios]

People are biased towards the Emperor and against the Chaos Gods because they are human... the emperor is doing what is needed for humanity to survive and be strong (apparently?)... well guess what... that is pretty much what the warp entities are doing as well... In The Grim Dark everyone is just as bad as each other... but for different reasons... especially those fanbois who pretend the Tau are nice...

[Serphanel]

i believe that the emporor has become similar to the chaos gods but also their opposite. he is the god of order. chaos is change and order is stagnation

[Walter Payton]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

 

 

Seems more likely that Horus declared all out war on them considering the imperiums view on compliance.

 

Have you even read Horus Rising? That statement is plainly untrue. Horus in fact loves them, because he liked centaurs as a child (long story short).

 

One of my personal hates is when the Chaos forums go-'Oh, we are the good guys really.' Yeah, you are-you serve the darkest corners of human psyche, a race of gods that consign souls to eternal agony, and want to practice genocide and enslavement, not to mention being weak enough to be manipulated by the hideous spawn of our own most selfish and evil desires. Some goodness there. We are evil, lads, face it! And embrace it!

 

The Imperium on the other hand, serves a tyrannical politburo, who claim to act in the name of a god who does not want to be, and enforce their will through brutality and fear. Evil, apart from the fact that Chaos is a cancer. The Imperium and Exterminatus the radiotherapy, chemotherapy, whatever. It ain't pretty, it is self-destructive, it hurts, but it is the only way (in this instance). Without the Emperor, the Astronomican would not work, and humanity would die-fact. The Emperor ensures the survival of the teeming trillions of lives. How he does it, or what his motives are is irrelevant. He (intentionally or not) ensures the survival of Man. For the safeguarding of an entire species, a debt of blood and toil does not seem too much to ask.

 

I do not believe that Magnus is anywhere near the Emperor in power, considering that he managed to kill the Gods of Chaos's greatest champion with a single psychic blast (Collected Visions), which Magnus would not have been able to do.

 

Sanguinius also had psychic powers-he killed that Bloodthirster by breaking its back, then throwing it away witgh telekinesis.

 

I personally do not believe that the Emperor got his powers from the Chaos Gods. Cool as it would be, I believe the mass-suicide of shamans thing. I believe that the Emperor is the Chaos God of Hope. It is the fate of hope to be dissappointed, however. But when it isn't...

 

"The Emperor remembers those who die for him, but soon no-one will be dying for him! Not only will we conquer this galaxy, but the galaxies after it, until this entire dimesnion is purged!"

[Draeden]

Alecto, hate to burst your bubble, but Tzeentch is the Chaos God of Hope. Has been for a long time.

 

God - Emotion - Theme

 

Khorne - Rage - War

Nurgle - Despair - Decay

Slaanesh - Pride/Hubris - Excess

Tzeentch - Hope - Sorcery

 

Khorne was born of the War in Heaven. Nurgle was born from the Deaths of that War. Tzeentch was born from the chances of success. And Slaanesh was born from the Universes Greatest Victory Party EVAH!

 

Also... Sssh... no one needs to know we're evil. It's all propaganda... ALRIGHT EVERYONE! NOTHING TO SEE HERE! JUST GOOD GUYS TALKING! KAY?!

[Ashe Darke]

Nurgle is the knowing that you will eventually die and accepting that fate but not wanting to think about it just yet and so having as much fun as you can before you die. See here you have your death but you also have your defiance or resilience if you will. The unconscious fear of death and decay gives life to all these things. So while it is in a way from despair is more subtle than that. This is what it says in Lost and the Damned anyway.

 

I do not believe that Magnus is anywhere near the Emperor in power, considering that he managed to kill the Gods of Chaos's greatest champion with a single psychic blast (Collected Visions), which Magnus would not have been able to do.

Well this is what Magnus said, but Magnus's ego is so big one of his eyes fell out so I don't know how true it is.

[Spacefrisian]

The Emperor maybe made that pact to find out about the enemy and how to beat them eg "Know youre Enemy."

[Walter Payton]

Alecto, hate to burst your bubble, but Tzeentch is the Chaos God of Hope. Has been for a long time.

 

Fair point. The rest of my post still stands, however...

 

Another of the Imperium's (few) virtues is that it isn't whimsical like the Chaos Gods. They don't go declaring Exterminatus for the banter, in the way that the Chaos Gods would.

[Clewz]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

 

 

Seems more likely that Horus declared all out war on them considering the imperiums view on compliance.

 

Have you even read Horus Rising? That statement is plainly untrue. Horus in fact loves them, because he liked centaurs as a child (long story short).

 

 

yeah I have read it. He may of loved them however his hand would of been forced on the issue. They believed at the end of it that the imperium was chaos tainted and therefore it would of been very unlikely that they would of joined freely. The emperors/Imperiums view on human populated worlds seems to be very join or die. I really doubt Horus would of gone against his fathers grand plan at that point

[Walter Payton]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

 

 

Seems more likely that Horus declared all out war on them considering the imperiums view on compliance.

 

Have you even read Horus Rising? That statement is plainly untrue. Horus in fact loves them, because he liked centaurs as a child (long story short).

 

 

yeah I have read it. He may of loved them however his hand would of been forced on the issue. They believed at the end of it that the imperium was chaos tainted and therefore it would of been very unlikely that they would of joined freely. The emperors/Imperiums view on human populated worlds seems to be very join or die. I really doubt Horus would of gone against his fathers grand plan at that point

 

The Interex shot first though-well, Erebus stole the anathame, but the Interex attacked Horus when he refused to surrender, than attacked him in orbit.

[Clewz]

Doesn't really matter who shot first really, just can't see Horus and the Luna Wolves going "ahh shucks, we'd best leave them to it". I'd imagine there would be some sort of attempt at diplomacy to save the situation which would be immediately rejected by the interex, quickly followed by an all out assault by the expedition force. The only way I'd see the interex being left alone is if they inflicted heavy casualties on the expedition force

[Hellios]

Good and Evil... well they may be points of view or they may be fixed. For the Chaos gods destroying a planet is like destroying a nest of insects, you as a human can judge their morality but only by your individual standards... while the chaos gods might have a whole different set. No race/team is good in the Grim Dark... on that note... it's possible that none are evil either.

[Ashe Darke]

Good and Evil... well they may be points of view or they may be fixed. For the Chaos gods destroying a planet is like destroying a nest of insects, you as a human can judge their morality but only by your individual standards... while the chaos gods might have a whole different set. No race/team is good in the Grim Dark... on that note... it's possible that none are evil either.

Well weren't they both fighting for survival? The Emperor wanted away with Chaos and they didn't like the fact he was trying to get rid of them. I'm waiting for the 'who started it' argument.

[Legatus]

Chaos does not do the malicious things it does to defend itself. Even if it does do the things to be able to survive, which is questionable, then it would still be a parasitic existence that would need to harm others to survive. The Imperium does not need to harm others to survive, it only uses force to eliminate threats to itself, even if they may perceive threats in everything that is not of them. Chaos does not use force to combat threats, it uses it because that is it's nature.

 

There is that, plus the whole notion of "Chaos" has only been invented in the first place to have a pure evil force in the 40K universe, so these discussions on moral relativity that pop up from time to time usually amuse me, as you cannot really contest that Chaos is indeed supposed to be completely evil, though you could perhaps argue that the authors have not managed to establish them well enough as that. Chaos wants everything dead, sick, doomed, just because. Chaos creatures are the kind of beings that expect their followers to torture masses of other beings to death just to appease them, and then they might play a bit with their followers, before ultimately damning them eternally. There is no "grey" to Chaos.

[Ashe Darke]

I'm not saying that they were all pleasant before the Emperor but they got nastier when they realised what a threat he was. All I'm saying was they were probably just content with existing, gathering more followers and periodically getting a taste of the material realm. The Emperor tried to stop all that and they wanted to stop his plan. Yeah they would have been a pain in people's backsides but they didn't try to all out wipe everyone out, whereas the Emperor did plan their demise.

 

For them to want everything dead is for them to want to end their existence. With everything in the universe dead there are no emotions for a warp counterpart.

 

You're painting them to be moronic and not understanding of their relationship with the material realm which the gods seem to be quite aware of. Sure they're sadistic but they're not stupid.

[Legatus]

You're painting them to be moronic and not understanding of their relationship with the material realm which the gods seem to be quite aware of. Sure they're sadistic but they're not stupid.

They are Chaos. They are not living things with instincts to eat, procreate or survive. The concept of enthropy suits them much more than any notion of survival instinct. I can see them longing for the damnation of the last living thing and a universe where only Chaos exists. Do Warp creatures need emotion to keep existing, or do they only need emotion to grow in strength? With no followers, Khorne would have no power, but would he cease to exist? Souls are eternal, even after death (see eldar sould stone concept), so couldn't they survive eternally on them? The gods would battle fro all eternity for all the souls that existed, with no living thing remaining in the physical realm. But maybe after this universe has ended, a new one will be born, a new playground for the creatures of the warp.

[Ashe Darke]

You're painting them to be moronic and not understanding of their relationship with the material realm which the gods seem to be quite aware of. Sure they're sadistic but they're not stupid.

They are Chaos. They are not living things with instincts to eat, procreate or survive. The concept of enthropy suits them much more than any notion of survival instinct. I can see them longing for the damnation of the last living thing and a universe where only Chaos exists. Do Warp creatures need emotion to keep existing, or do they only need emotion to grow in strength? With no followers, Khorne would have no power, but would he cease to exist? Souls are eternal, even after death (see eldar sould stone concept), so couldn't they survive eternally on them? The gods would battle fro all eternity for all the souls that existed, with no living thing remaining in the physical realm. But maybe after this universe has ended, a new one will be born, a new playground for the creatures of the warp.

Well there was a time when none of them existed, during the height of the Old Ones rule the Immaterium was void of such creatures, it was a calm sea. I personally think they're just trying to propagate their own existence while doing some evil on the side but you know this is based on all the stuff I've read and I doubt we've both read the same stuff.

 

As for them not being alive well in their realm they are, the gods also seems to have this great wisdom and intellect.

 

As for no followers no it wouldn't because there still will be people feeling angry, fighting wars and generally doing all the stuff that makes Khorne what he is, so they don't have to be followers. But if everyone is dead as you implied they want everyone to be then there literally is nothing to imprint on the immaterium. Well that's not 100% true as there were ancient species that didn't leave an imprint but it's implied they're all dead now.

 

I find it odd that from what I've read the gods have come about because there are enough people feeling those things for a god to form. So what? There's like only 4 major things and the rest aren't as significant enough to become as powerful as the main 4? I know there are other daemons to represent other concepts but surely there must be more people feeling those specific things.