Interesting confirmation on the Emperor's diabolic dabblings

[Draeden]

Liber Chaotica explains this very well.

 

Everyone is a follower of Chaos. In Warhammer 40k there only seems to be two groups of Gods. C'tan - Gods of the Materium, and the Chaos Powers - Gods of the Immaterium. Both being the anathema to each other (C'tan breath the Materium as it were air, Chaos Powers breath the Warp as it were air. No air, no life.), both with the same food source, you.

 

Anyways, the War in Heaven birthed the Chaos Powers.

 

The Old Ones and their children hated the C'tan and the Necrontyr and fought a massive war. Khorne was born.

 

The Old Ones and their children dispaired at the horrors of the war, and how slim their chances of victory was. Nurgle was born.

 

The Old Ones and their children hoped so strongly that something in the war would change, something that would let them win, Tzeentch was born.

 

The Children of the Old One, without their parents being home anymore, held one helluva victory party. Slaanesh was born.

 

Now, in none of those situations, was any of them an open worshipper of Chaos. They just lived and the Chaos Gods were born.

 

The Liber Chaotica, if I recall correctly, it's in Liber Tzeentch, though it could very well be in Liber Nurgle, states that when someone dies, their "soul" begins to break down imeadiately into the warp, into the most basic and raw emotions and beliefs. These float around in the warp until they coalesce into a singular conciousness. At first it's nothing, just bundles of emotion. When it hits a critical mass however, it gains a latent conciousness. Nothing like a fully formed power but enough to show that it's growing. This basic conciousness starts drawing to itself more strongly the emotions it is composed of, and even starts pressuring peoples psyche into leaning towards their emotions, promoting it even. Once a second critical mass is reached, the being explodes into a fully formed conciousness.

 

Now as these conciousness' gain in intelligence, they can start absorbing loosely related concepts and emotions. For instance, Khorne might've started off as Anger. Anger for the actions of the C'tan and the Necrontyr. And there might also be a seperate warp entity for their hate of both groups. But when the Anger reached a critical mass before Hate, Anger consumed Hate and was now fueled by two emotions. Same can be said for Nurgle (sorrow and despair), and Tzeentch (hope and change).

 

Now, going into Warhammer Fantasy for a moment, what Sigmar did, was what I think the Emperor tried to do. Sigmar became a minor Chaos God by establishing a human empire. Concentrating everyones beliefs into his empire and into him. Then, when he crossed over into the Warp, Sigmar drew all the warp-entities concerning the Empire and its citizens into himself.

 

Now the differing factor between Sigmar and the Chaos Powers were, was that Sigmar was a man. Flesh and blood and all that. So he didn't need to sustain himself from something. The Chaos Powers however are born from emotion. So it would make sense that they promote their favoured emotions to promote their own life. This is understood by Chaos Champions. Once again using Khorne (he is the simplest of the Chaos Gods afterall :D). Someone shows an unprecedented finese in battle. Khorne would take notice. He then strokes the persons psyche gently. The feeling of adrenaline, their battle lust, would increase. As the battle continues, the persons hate for his enemy, his rage, would also increase. And the more this persons rage would increase, Khorne would grant them a measure of his power. Not obviously mind you. Just a small boost of power, such as shedding their fatigue.

 

The person would then find themselves striving to increase their anger because they would believe themselves stronger in this state of mind. To this person they might not really notice the change, but his fellows would see it. When the targets rage reaches a certain point to satisfy Khorne, he would bless that person with his favour. An obvious mark, an extra limb, or some other thing. Along with this, most often comes the understanding to the person of what Khorne is, even in the most basic sense. So this person, if he is your average person, would then begin to strive for more and more favour from Khorne, mutating, changing along the way to better represent one of Khornes chosen. To others this basically declares "Become an avatar of me like this one, and you can become great." Thus, others turn onto the path of Chaos. Following the now Champion in some hope to gain Khornes favour. At this point in time it does not matter if others truely ascend or not, what matters is that those people who turn to follow Khorne, are now his. Mind, body and soul, they have been damned.

 

So now, when any of these people, devoted to the infernal powers, dies. Their soul, their presence in the Immaterium and their connection between both realities, now goes directly to the power they chose to serve (in this case, Khorne). Thus empowering the chaos god further. Also, any power that the Chaos God invested in their chosen champions, is also returned to them. So basically when someone dies, each Chaos Power gets a sip. When a devoted follower dies, one of the powers gets a full shot. And when a champion dies, the power gets a double shot.

 

Now, according to that, one would theorise "If a champion grants them more power, then why not make everyone a champion?", the simple matter of that is, a Champion is a recruitment billboard. A signpost and an example so the Chaos God can get the most bang for their buck so to speak.

 

Now going back to what I mentioned earlier about the formation of the Chaos Gods. There are always an unending amount of warp-entities, starting to form, but at the same time they're also constantly consumed and reborn. It's what makes Chaos, Chaos. Chaos is not evil, it's just one unending maddened conflict for survival.

 

Now, touching onto what I mentioned of Sigmar and what the Emperors supposed master-plan is. What I view it as is simple. Genocide on a mass scale. Eliminate anything that isn't human. Subtly introduce the concept that he's a god. Now, him going with what Lorgar originally wanted him to do and openly stating "I'm God" would cause more insurrection than saying "I'm not God." Why? Because if the Emperor called himself God, it'd inspire religeous fervor amongst the conquered populace. By saying "I'm not God", people then turn around, look at his raw power and go "He is such a divine being, yet humble. He is surely a good god to follow." Now, Liber Chaotica mentions that the Chaos Gates in the Far North of the Fantasy World used to be massive travel gates of the Old Ones. Web Way anyone? The Emperor was building a webway gate so large that a Titan could walk through it. And it is known that when a webway collapses it stands a chance of becoming a chaos portal since the webway is a thing of the warp, but built between the realities. So, my opinion of the Emperors master-plan was simple.

 

1. Wipe out anything that isn't human

2. Subtly cause religeous fervor about himself

3. Build a giant interstellar bridge to prove his power

4. Use said Interstellar Bridge to enter the warp

5. Draw into himself the entire religeous fervor of the Imperium and himself to turn himself into a Chaos Power

6. Destroy the other Chaos Powers by removing all emotions from the people except those that the Emperor could absorb, thus turning two entire realities into his play thing.

 

Long freaking post D=

[Ashe Darke]

Nice post man. Only 1 things really, Nurgle isn't all about death and decay, he's also about the life that comes from that despair 'I've only got a year to live? I'd better do all those things I wanted to do. Tomorrow I got bungee jumping!'.

 

It irks me when people seem to think that that is all he's about. He's the coolest by far in my opinion as he seems to be the only god with a sense of humour. Nurglings dance and play, there is a whole plague planet where people are holding hands around its equator, dancing until they become plague bearers. Beasts of Nurgle are like lovable, albeit poisonous stupid dogs that only want to play but can't understand why all their new play mates die as soon as they get close. They're all obsessed with counting and making lists which I think is a nice little quirk. These things add loads more depth and make Nurgle a lot more interesting than 'he's the lord of decay'.

[Draeden]

Dark Gods know I love that bit of information Ashe. Always use it to screw with the Imperials in my local area. "Khorne is the God of Warriors. Nurgle the God of Life, Tzeentch the God of Hope, and Slaanesh the God of a Pretty Damn Good time." I tend to get the young'uns seein my point of view to spread the will of Chaos >=D But reason I spoke of Nurgle solely in his death aspect was in regards to the War in Heaven and not trying to extrapolate too far from that point.

[Legatus]

Everyone is a follower of Chaos. In Warhammer 40k there only seems to be two groups of Gods. C'tan - Gods of the Materium, and the Chaos Powers - Gods of the Immaterium.

What about the Eldar and Ork gods? They are not usually counted as belonging to the "runinus powers". And Slaanesh was created by the Eldar, so the Eldar and Ork Gods are not simply their versions of Chaos gods.

 

 

So, my opinion of the Emperors master-plan was simple.

 

1. Wipe out anything that isn't human

2. Subtly cause religeous fervor about himself

3. Build a giant interstellar bridge to prove his power

4. Use said Interstellar Bridge to enter the warp

5. Draw into himself the entire religeous fervor of the Imperium and himself to turn himself into a Chaos Power

6. Destroy the other Chaos Powers by removing all emotions from the people except those that the Emperor could absorb, thus turning two entire realities into his play thing.

Yes... or maybe his plan was what he said it was. To unite mankind and rid them of supersticion and bring them a new and safe age without the fear of aliens or the dark gods. Or would that be too simple without him having a secret agenda?

[Draeden]

Everyone is a follower of Chaos. In Warhammer 40k there only seems to be two groups of Gods. C'tan - Gods of the Materium, and the Chaos Powers - Gods of the Immaterium.

What about the Eldar and Ork gods? They are not usually counted as belonging to the "runinus powers". And Slaanesh was created by the Eldar, so the Eldar and Ork Gods are not simply their versions of Chaos gods.

 

 

So, my opinion of the Emperors master-plan was simple.

 

1. Wipe out anything that isn't human

2. Subtly cause religeous fervor about himself

3. Build a giant interstellar bridge to prove his power

4. Use said Interstellar Bridge to enter the warp

5. Draw into himself the entire religeous fervor of the Imperium and himself to turn himself into a Chaos Power

6. Destroy the other Chaos Powers by removing all emotions from the people except those that the Emperor could absorb, thus turning two entire realities into his play thing.

Yes... or maybe his plan was what he said it was. To unite mankind and rid them of supersticion and bring them a new and safe age without the fear of aliens or the dark gods. Or would that be too simple without him having a secret agenda?

 

Using Sigmar once again as an example. Sigmar, from the moment he entered the warp and condensed the emotions of the people of the Empire, he became a Minor Chaos God. The Horned Rat is a Minor Chaos God. All the Elven Gods are Chaos Gods. All of them are Chaos Gods. Gork and Mork, Isha, Khaine, Eldar Laughing God, they're all Chaos Gods. Opposing the Ruinous Powers, yes. Not as directly strong as them either. Being a Warp Entity makes you a Chaos God. But being Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne makes you a Ruinous Power. There's a distinction between Ruinous Power and Chaos God. The Ruinous Powers are Chaos Gods. But not all Chaos Gods are Ruinous Powers.

 

Also, no. This is Grim-Dark. There is no way someone so pure and noble minded can exist at that high an echelon. And that's about the only way to destroy the Ruinous Powers. MIND CONTROL EVERYONE! And anyone you can't mind-control gets a bullet.

[Legatus]

I thought it was grimdark because the benevolent leader of mankind had been mortally wounded 10,000 years ago and is now imprisoned in a giant machine that keeps him alive, unable to do anything for the past 10,000 years other than to maintain the navigator beacon that allows mankind to still travel the galaxy. If he had succeeded in creating the great human empire he intended to, maybe this would not be grimdark. But he didn't.

[Draeden]

If everything he was doing was so good and nice and rainbows and sunshine, why'd he go and be so secretive about what he was doing? No, he's just a two-faced douche in my opinion

 

Emperor: "Magnus, you know the thing that you and your legion with all the psychic powers? Yeah... don't do that."

 

*Emperor goes off to do something even larger and flashier in his basement*

 

Emperor: "Hey Fulgrim! You're my most favoured son, but Horus gets to outrank you from now on."

 

Emperor: "Hey Mortarion. I just killed your adoptive father who's been oppressing your people and you've been working so hard to beat. No hard feelings, kay?"

 

Emperor: "Hey Perturabo? Your home world said some bad things about me. I want it destroyed."

 

Emperor: "Konrad? Yeah, this entire little empire of law and order you've set up... it's not kinda my thing. Why don't you come over here where I can abuse you and let your world fall to ruin?"

 

He was not benevolent. He was a power hungry douche that hid behind a mask. His noble intentions involved the complete subjugation of every living beings mind so there would be no fuel for any Chaos Power but him, for there is no other way to destroy the Ruinous Powers. Certainly if there was any that didn't involve the total anihilation of every thing in living existance, the Eldar would've figured it out.

[Legatus]

The Emperor certainly comes across as less of a jerk when you stick to the actual fluff.

 

 

Emperor: "Magnus, you know the thing that you and your legion with all the psychic powers? Yeah... don't do that."

When presented with the problem of sorcery amidst the Astartes Legion ranks, the Emperor held a council and let both sides have their say, before ultimately a consensus and compromise was agreed on. A cmpromise Magnus was not happy with. None the less, you can hardly blame the Emperor here.

 

 

Emperor: "Hey Fulgrim! You're my most favoured son, but Horus gets to outrank you from now on."

Codices and the Index Astartes make us believe that Horus had allways been the Emperor's favoured son.

 

 

Emperor: "Hey Mortarion. I just killed your adoptive father who's been oppressing your people and you've been working so hard to beat. No hard feelings, kay?"

Yeah, that is indeed what had happened. Mortarion was unable to defeat the tyrant ruling his world, then the Emperor stepped in and defeated him. What a jerk. :lol:

 

 

Emperor: "Hey Perturabo? Your home world said some bad things about me. I want it destroyed."

That is not exactly how the Index Astartes puts it. The Emperor is not mentioned in the Iron Warrior's and Sons of Horus's decision to mercilessly punish the people of Olympia.

 

 

Emperor: "Konrad? Yeah, this entire little empire of law and order you've set up... it's not kinda my thing. Why don't you come over here where I can abuse you and let your world fall to ruin?"

Yeah, sure, the Emperor only took Conrad Kurze and made him lead a Space Marine Legion to liberate countless human worlds just because he wanted Nostramo to sink back into corruption and crime. He must have known that this was what was going to happen if he removed the Primarch from the world, right? Because that's what happened to all the other worlds that had the ruling Primarch taken from them. No, wait...

[Lay]

Regarding the Emperor's plans, the Epic supplement "Renegades" states that "The Emperor attempted to thwart the rise of Chaos in the material universe by creating twenty genetically engineered super human 'Primarchs' to defend humanity. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic imprint of the Primarchs."

 

Emperor: "Konrad? Yeah, this entire little empire of law and order you've set up... it's not kinda my thing. Why don't you come over here where I can abuse you and let your world fall to ruin?"

You'd think the fact Nostramo's society collapsed without Curze's iron grip says more about him than it says about the Emperor.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

He was not benevolent. He was a power hungry douche that hid behind a mask.

 

In a universe where everyone is out to get everyone else and humanity is slowly being lost or killed off, being power hungry and being benevolent are alarmingly close to being one and the same.

 

His noble intentions involved the complete subjugation of every living beings mind so there would be no fuel for any Chaos Power but him, for there is no other way to destroy the Ruinous Powers.

 

And being subjugated by eternal war, eternal disease, eternal disappointment or eternal mutation was somehow better? Frankly, destroying the Ruinous Powers seems like a good thing considering what they get up to.

 

Being a Warp Entity makes you a Chaos God. But being Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne makes you a Ruinous Power. There's a distinction between Ruinous Power and Chaos God. The Ruinous Powers are Chaos Gods. But not all Chaos Gods are Ruinous Powers.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to substitute your "Chaos God" definition with "Warp God", and keep using "Chaos Gods" and "Ruinous Powers" interchangeably in the way that the community often does?

[Ashe Darke]

Emperor: "Konrad? Yeah, this entire little empire of law and order you've set up... it's not kinda my thing. Why don't you come over here where I can abuse you and let your world fall to ruin?"

Yeah, sure, the Emperor only took Conrad Kurze and made him lead a Space Marine Legion to liberate countless human worlds just because he wanted Nostramo to sink back into corruption and crime. He must have known that this was what was going to happen if he removed the Primarch from the world, right? Because that's what happened to all the other worlds that had the ruling Primarch taken from them. No, wait...

Surely if the Emperor is so smart and has farseeing capabilities then surely he'd know. Hell even a normal person who took the time to assess the situation would see it coming.

 

Town A is bad.

Introduce Mr C.

Town A is scared.

Town A is good.

 

So a clear idea of what happened. The introduction of Mr C into society has instilled fear in them and this fear has stopped them from being bad. Can you see what's gonna happen when Mr C gets removed?

 

Remove Mr C.

Town A not scared.

Town A bad.

 

It's kinda obvious. As for the other worlds, well again taking the time to ask some questions one would find out that all their worlds were not overrun with criminals where as Nostramo was so it's kinda hard to sink back into a sinful society when you never were one. Sure there were other bad planets. Caliban for one, not so much criminals but more warp beasts. But they killed them all so taking the Lion was fine. On Nostramo, the criminals were still there, they were just too scared to do anything.

 

So if he really is that amazing with the ability to see the future did he not see this coming? And if he did then that's pretty harsh 'Uhh yeah I'm gonna go off on a mission that only I know the details of, it's not gonna work because other more powerful beings have prevented me from farseeing my demise, but I need to take my 'son' back to go do this, this is ultimately gonna see you turn to crime again leading to your planet being blown up, which I may or may have not already seen. Bye!'

 

So while you can't necessarily blame him for Nostramos ultimate fate as we don't know if he saw it coming, the immediate repercussions I don't think he can wriggle out of. So he either looked at the situation and didn't care that the obvious was gonna happen or he didn't really think or care and just took Curze away which again is his fault. You can't accidentally run someone over and try and say well I wasn't looking so it wasn't my fault. If you're not gonna look then you shouldn't drive.

[Legatus]

But the Emperor wasn't "driving". The Imperium did not get involved with the government of a world unless that world was not being compliant. That's why there are dictatorships as well as democracies and feudal worlds in the Imperium. The Emperor has set foot on thousands of worlds over the course of the Great Crusades. The main concerns was that the worlds were willing to join the Imperium and that they were able to defend themselves. He probably did not study the criminal records and the historical developement of every world he visited. You essentially blame him for expecting that a World would be able to go on without a Primarch taking care of it. Yes, he was wrong on that, the world was not able to function without an iron fist. But maybe ruling through fear is not the most effective long term solution.

[Ashe Darke]

By taking Konrad he was so to speak. It was an action with consequences which he fulfilled either without knowing the full ramifications or he did know and didn't care. He can farsee and I don't think the RPs would have distorted his to that degree because that's quite a large amount of interfering on their part. Maybe they did, maybe he looked and they showed him a nice future for Nostramo in which case it's not his fault. We just haven't seen any evidence of it.

 

I don't expect him to read a full report on each world, but on worlds where he is taking an important factor away it might just be a good idea especially seen as each of Primarchs rose to important figures on each of their planets. But even just asking Konrad about his world would have shone some light on the situation.

 

'So son, Mortarion did this, Magnus did this, what have you done for this planet? What's that you personally stopped all the crime on this planet due to the fear you inspire, sounds like maybe my plan to take you with me might destabilise that.'

 

And yeah maybe he could take Konrad and leave some hardcore enforcers behind, maybe he did I can't remember, but at least periodically checking on the planet, especially as you're recruiting from there. And then when the Legion started acting up. Hmmm they're starting to act like criminals like those criminals that used to exist on that planet they recruit from. Hmm awww well I'm sure it's just fine and that planet hasn't regressed seen as I took the only thing that stopped them from regressing, not that I'm even checking on them.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Surely if the Emperor is so smart and has farseeing capabilities then surely he'd know. Hell even a normal person who took the time to assess the situation would see it coming.

 

Town A is bad.

Introduce Mr C.

Town A is scared.

Town A is good.

 

So a clear idea of what happened. The introduction of Mr C into society has instilled fear in them and this fear has stopped them from being bad. Can you see what's gonna happen when Mr C gets removed?

 

Remove Mr C.

Town A not scared.

Town A bad.

 

It's kinda obvious. As for the other worlds, well again taking the time to ask some questions one would find out that all their worlds were not overrun with criminals where as Nostramo was so it's kinda hard to sink back into a sinful society when you never were one.

 

Non-compliant is sinful. <_<

 

Why do letting Nostramo decline and the Emperor's foresight have to be mutually exclusive? Benevolent he may be, but nice and cuddly? No. The Emperor seems to practice benevolence by numbers - If there are gains to be had that are greater than the loss incurred by having Nostramo decline, then guess what the Emperor will do?

[Ashe Darke]

Aye, it's definitely not the worst thing he's done. But people portray him to be this awesome guy yet all he seems to do is interfere in people's lives which could very well mean a whole load of people dying and all he says is it's for your own good without telling them why.

 

Now if someone came to Earth and said 'join me or die' and killed everyone who defied him and before he buggered off after the slaughter said 'all that killing business, it's for your own good, I'm not gonna say why though' I'd be pretty peeved to be honest. Especially if then went 'I'm off to go do this to other people because I do what I want, by the way I expect you to kiss my behind while I'm gone'.

 

Sure this didn't happen everywhere, some people embraced. Some people recognised who he was and what he meant but they didn't want to throw away their old culture but that didn't fit in the mould and so they were killed. So far he's looking the kinda guy I wanna follow <_<

 

So back to 'it's for your own good, but I can't tell you'. Well maybe his plan would have worked if more powerful beings hadn't prevented him from seeing his demise (which is his own fault for trying to get rid of them) except we don't know what his plan was. All we know is that it involved the webway, and as far as I can see I don't know how him mastering the webway justifies all the killing that came before hand. Not 100% sure how this was gonna be for the good of mankind. Honestly I used to think he was awesome and then I read more about him and I was shocked at what I found out. Not that I think it will ever happen but if they did reveal his master plan and it looked like it would have worked then fair enough, maybe it was worth the risk. Except we don't know what it was and what we do know doesn't seem that useful as far as I'm concerned.

 

This is my complaint, you say if gains are to be had, we don't even know what they were or how he was going to do it. If I'm supposed to be cool with the slaughtering of people who don't quite fit in I'd like a little more than 'it's for their own good'.

[Legatus]

Aye, it's definitely not the worst thing he's done. But people portray him to be this awesome guy yet all he seems to do is interfere in people's lives which could very well mean a whole load of people dying and all he says is it's for your own good without telling them why.

Because clearly no good has come from uniting humanity...

 

 

Now if someone came to Earth and said 'join me or die' and killed everyone who defied him and before he buggered off after the slaughter said 'all that killing business, it's for your own good, I'm not gonna say why though' I'd be pretty peeved to be honest.

Except that the reason to unite humanity was a very real and imminent one, and had nothing to do with hidden warp projects. Humanity was on the brink of anihilation before the Emperor started the Great Crusade.

 

 

Especially if then went 'I'm off to go do this to other people because I do what I want, by the way I expect you to kiss my behind while I'm gone'.

But that's not what the Emperor did, is it? Lorgar can tell you a story about it.

 

 

So back to 'it's for your own good, but I can't tell you'. Well maybe his plan would have worked if more powerful beings hadn't prevented him from seeing his demise (which is his own fault for trying to get rid of them) except we don't know what his plan was.

Saving mankind from extinction via "real world" threats worked out pretty well I'd say.

 

 

All we know is that it involved the webway, and as far as I can see I don't know how him mastering the webway justifies all the killing that came before hand.

Actually, can you name a non-BL source that mentions a secret webway agenda? Perhaps there were such sources and I just don't remember them, but for the time being I am going ahead and wager that the story about the great crusade and teh unification of mankind is long time 40K lore, while the secret webway ploy has been tacked on by a Black Library author. So basically, his plan used to have worked pretty well, until some BL author retconned it into having had an entirely different goal, and suddenly the plan did not work out. I think I will be sticking with studio background with this.

 

 

Honestly I used to think he was awesome and then I read more about him and I was shocked at what I found out.

How much of those shocking revelations came from recent Black Library material?

[Draeden]

Emperor: "Magnus, you know the thing that you and your legion with all the psychic powers? Yeah... don't do that."

When presented with the problem of sorcery amidst the Astartes Legion ranks, the Emperor held a council and let both sides have their say, before ultimately a consensus and compromise was agreed on. A cmpromise Magnus was not happy with. None the less, you can hardly blame the Emperor here.

 

It was a Kangaroo Court. Magnus and the Librarians were guilty from the very start and when the Prosecuter is also the guy who pays the Judges wages....

 

He was not benevolent. He was a power hungry douche that hid behind a mask.

 

In a universe where everyone is out to get everyone else and humanity is slowly being lost or killed off, being power hungry and being benevolent are alarmingly close to being one and the same.

 

His noble intentions involved the complete subjugation of every living beings mind so there would be no fuel for any Chaos Power but him, for there is no other way to destroy the Ruinous Powers.

 

And being subjugated by eternal war, eternal disease, eternal disappointment or eternal mutation was somehow better? Frankly, destroying the Ruinous Powers seems like a good thing considering what they get up to.

 

Being a Warp Entity makes you a Chaos God. But being Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne makes you a Ruinous Power. There's a distinction between Ruinous Power and Chaos God. The Ruinous Powers are Chaos Gods. But not all Chaos Gods are Ruinous Powers.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to substitute your "Chaos God" definition with "Warp God", and keep using "Chaos Gods" and "Ruinous Powers" interchangeably in the way that the community often does?

 

For Chaos God and Warp God, I'm sticking to the definitions in Liber Chaotica. You can use Warp God. I'm sticking to Chaos God. The book even goes on to theorise that the Ruinous Powers themselves as well as all other Chaos Gods are only daemons to a far greater entity, Chaos Undivided which is the sum of all the warp.

 

Subjugated by Eternal War? It would always be there. Either on some new Xenos culture, or planets rebelling. Eternal disease? Disease comes with war regardless. And when the Imperiums greatest weapon is in fact a disease (virus bomb)... Eternal Disapointment? For who? If anything Slaanesh would be making it so everyone has a damn good time. And eternal mutation? Is it really that bad? Ogryns, Squats, Ratlings, Davin-folk, all mutated to adapt to their surroundings, allowing humanity to live in a greater number of environments....

[Ashe Darke]

Because clearly no good has come from uniting humanity...

 

Except that the reason to unite humanity was a very real and imminent one, and had nothing to do with hidden warp projects. Humanity was on the brink of anihilation before the Emperor started the Great Crusade.

 

Again I have no problem with uniting humanity, but to kill those who don't quite fit in, just seems like madness and an insanely strict policy. I've not seen a valid reason why leaving those who don't quite fit the cookie cutter or don't 100% agree to the terms of compliance have to die. Why is there no leniency, no attempts to compromise? 'Ok so you will join us if we let you keep this aspect of your culture? No problem, welcome aboard'. None of that happened, the smote them with a stubborn harsh fist

 

But that's not what the Emperor did, is it? Lorgar can tell you a story about it.

 

I didn't say 'worship me' I just meant follow him as their leader.

 

Actually, can you name a non-BL source that mentions a secret webway agenda? Perhaps there were such sources and I just don't remember them, but for the time being I am going ahead and wager that the story about the great crusade and teh unification of mankind is long time 40K lore, while the secret webway ploy has been tacked on by a Black Library author. So basically, his plan used to have worked pretty well, until some BL author retconned it into having had an entirely different goal, and suddenly the plan did not work out. I think I will be sticking with studio background with this.

 

I believe Collected Visions mentions it. I definitely heard this prior to it appearing in BL books. Either way I'm pretty sure the writers have to check this stuff out with GW before it goes to print so there has to be some seal of approval. To chose the older, arguably not as relevant material that scarcely covers the subject in much detail, over the newer books that designed to exclusively cover those events seems odd but fair enough.

 

How much of those shocking revelations came from recent Black Library material?

 

You knock the books yet we have been told that anything with the GW logo is their own weird brand of canon. And considering these books are supposed to be about the events that took place and the other sources are just about general background with bits of things that happened at that time, are your surprised that the lengthy material exclusively covering that period has more details than the much shorter bits of text that are no exclusively about that period in time?

[Legatus]

It was a Kangaroo Court. Magnus and the Librarians were guilty from the very start and when the Prosecuter is also the guy who pays the Judges wages....

That's not how the Index Astartes Thousand Sons describes the events. Does the Black Library put it like that?

 

 

To chose the older, arguably not as relevant material that scarcely covers the subject in much detail, over the newer books that designed to exclusively cover those events seems odd but fair enough.

The purpose of Black Library novels is not to "cover events". It is to tell dramatic stories. The purpose of Studio material is to define the game world for the players. Even Gav Thorpe, who advocated that no Black Library background should be dismissed as "not canon" pointed out that at a later time the Black Library material might even be adopted by the Studio writers into the "game background".

I have explained before why Black Library material will never be as relevant as Studio material, and the most important reason is that the Black Library material is not officially translated by GW and regularly sold in the GW stores. Every player who wants to get into the game will get the Codex for his army and then read the background inside of it. Black Library books are not sold officially at all the international GW stores, so you cannot claim that they have the same relevance to the hobby background. Black Library material is not meant to define the game background.

[Walter Payton]

The book even goes on to theorise that the Ruinous Powers themselves as well as all other Chaos Gods are only daemons to a far greater entity, Chaos Undivided which is the sum of all the warp.

 

That is a self-defeating argument, because if you are correct, then the Emperor is part of Chaos Undivided, yet he possessed the will and very real capability to destroy it-after all the Chaos forums love to point out how the HH could have been avoided without all the Emperor's little mistakes...

 

And that's before we get onto the fact that it comes from BL...

 

Subjugated by Eternal War? It would always be there. Either on some new Xenos culture, or planets rebelling. Eternal disease? Disease comes with war regardless. And when the Imperiums greatest weapon is in fact a disease (virus bomb)... Eternal Disapointment? For who? If anything Slaanesh would be making it so everyone has a damn good time. And eternal mutation? Is it really that bad? Ogryns, Squats, Ratlings, Davin-folk, all mutated to adapt to their surroundings, allowing humanity to live in a greater number of environments....

 

The Virus Bomb is but one of the Imperium's methods of delivering Sanction Extremis. They also have atmospheric incinerators, converted Ironclads, cyclonic torpedoes and nuclear carpet bombing. To claim that it would have led to eternal disease is moronic, as there would A: be a far reduced need for it, and B:Nurgle is like a virus bomb on every planet, only this one doesn't end your torment like the Imperium's one does.

 

There is a difference between eternal war and eternal and omnipresent war.

 

Slaanesh does not make it so everyone has 'a damn good time', as any but the most perfunctory look into any Chaos Codex would tell you. He gives you a very limited pleasurable experience, then makes you do more, for less of a fix, then progressively less and less. His great irony is that he dulls his followers ability to experience pleasure, rather than heightens it.

 

There is a difference between the biological mutation of Ogryns and Davinites and the etheric mutation of Chaos:

 

OGRYN+DAVINITE+RATLING+SQUAT=DARWIN AT WORK

 

TENTACLE+FANGED MAW+THIRD NIPPLE THAT CAN HOLD A STRAW=TZEENTCH MUCKING AROUND

 

I'm with Tyrak and Legatus on this.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Aye, it's definitely not the worst thing he's done. But people portray him to be this awesome guy yet all he seems to do is interfere in people's lives which could very well mean a whole load of people dying and all he says is it's for your own good without telling them why.

 

Now if someone came to Earth and said 'join me or die' and killed everyone who defied him and before he buggered off after the slaughter said 'all that killing business, it's for your own good, I'm not gonna say why though' I'd be pretty peeved to be honest.

 

Believe it or not, that's the reality of the world peace people go on about. :cuss

 

Eternal Disapointment? For who? If anything Slaanesh would be making it so everyone has a damn good time.

 

Sanitisation. Slaanesh followers end up in a permanent search for greater pleasure as they become sanitised to the levels they have reached. Slaanesh worship isn't a permanent high.

 

It was a Kangaroo Court. Magnus and the Librarians were guilty from the very start and when the Prosecuter is also the guy who pays the Judges wages....

 

If it was poor at proper judicial process, it was also poor at looking like a court (last time I checked it was a council) and poor as dispensing any type of punishment upon "conviction" (all Magnus was told was to stop doing it).

 

Again I have no problem with uniting humanity, but to kill those who don't quite fit in, just seems like madness and an insanely strict policy. I've not seen a valid reason why leaving those who don't quite fit the cookie cutter or don't 100% agree to the terms of compliance have to die.

 

Because you're a threat. Nobody has the strength to maintain their independence in the face of the galactic (or in the case of the Tyranids, intergalactic) powers, and as a result you will end up aligned with one faction or another (by choice or by force). All the other factions are hostile to the Imperium. Therefore, if you will not join, it makes military and political sense for the Imperium to get rid of you before one of your enemies makes use of you.

[Clewz]

Because clearly no good has come from uniting humanity...

 

Except that the reason to unite humanity was a very real and imminent one, and had nothing to do with hidden warp projects. Humanity was on the brink of anihilation before the Emperor started the Great Crusade.

 

Again I have no problem with uniting humanity, but to kill those who don't quite fit in, just seems like madness and an insanely strict policy. I've not seen a valid reason why leaving those who don't quite fit the cookie cutter or don't 100% agree to the terms of compliance have to die. Why is there no leniency, no attempts to compromise? 'Ok so you will join us if we let you keep this aspect of your culture? No problem, welcome aboard'. None of that happened, the smote them with a stubborn harsh fist

 

 

 

Also killing those who want no part of it. Think its Horus rising where Loken gets asked "why couldnt you of left us alone". If they're on an annihilation path why waste resources doing it yourself?

[Walter Payton]

Because clearly no good has come from uniting humanity...

 

Except that the reason to unite humanity was a very real and imminent one, and had nothing to do with hidden warp projects. Humanity was on the brink of anihilation before the Emperor started the Great Crusade.

 

Again I have no problem with uniting humanity, but to kill those who don't quite fit in, just seems like madness and an insanely strict policy. I've not seen a valid reason why leaving those who don't quite fit the cookie cutter or don't 100% agree to the terms of compliance have to die. Why is there no leniency, no attempts to compromise? 'Ok so you will join us if we let you keep this aspect of your culture? No problem, welcome aboard'. None of that happened, the smote them with a stubborn harsh fist

 

 

 

Also killing those who want no part of it. Think its Horus rising where Loken gets asked "why couldnt you of left us alone". If they're on an annihilation path why waste resources doing it yourself?

 

Why don't you ask Abbadon next time you see him...

 

Because, the Pacification of Sixty-Three Nineteen killed maybe, somewhere in the region of ninety thousand OpFors. As opposed to the entire planetary population when the Tyranids roll up and there is no Imperium to save them.

[Clewz]

Because you're a threat. Nobody has the strength to maintain their independence in the face of the galactic (or in the case of the Tyranids, intergalactic) powers, and as a result you will end up aligned with one faction or another (by choice or by force). All the other factions are hostile to the Imperium. Therefore, if you will not join, it makes military and political sense for the Imperium to get rid of you before one of your enemies makes use of you.

 

Ahh didnt think of it that way..

[Ashe Darke]

The purpose of Black Library novels is not to "cover events". It is to tell dramatic stories. The purpose of Studio material is to define the game world for the players. Even Gav Thorpe, who advocated that no Black Library background should be dismissed as "not canon" pointed out that at a later time the Black Library material might even be adopted by the Studio writers into the "game background".

I have explained before why Black Library material will never be as relevant as Studio material, and the most important reason is that the Black Library material is not officially translated by GW and regularly sold in the GW stores. Every player who wants to get into the game will get the Codex for his army and then read the background inside of it. Black Library books are not sold officially at all the international GW stores, so you cannot claim that they have the same relevance to the hobby background. Black Library material is not meant to define the game background.

Well the authors themselves seem to be mixed in their views, some claiming BL is and some not. Seen as Gav doesn't work for the company any more and I wouldn't have considered him an official spokes person for the company I don't know how relevant a quote from him is. The higher ups seem to contradict each other anyway.

 

Whether the books are not as relevant as things like codexes or not it doesn't mean they're completely irrelevant and shouldn't be discarded as a source. The fact is they are a much richer source of information on that particular time line. The books all seem to converge on these points so you could say 'author conspiracy' but it's most likely the case that they wanted to make some money by expanding the information on the heresy as things had touched on it but not in this much detail. The older stuff was all written at a time when things were still not set in stone but they wanted to flesh out the background some more. So you get IA which adds more details but at times is still sketchy with the details keeping in a bit loose as they still weren't sure. Personally I think they wanted to solidify these ideas a bit more with the HH series as this was an opportunity to add some real meat. Sure maybe they added some drama to make the books more interesting but for all these books to agree on certain points that are new (but not necessarily said not to have happened by older fluff) to be not actually true seems a bit insulting to the readers. 'Yeah you wanna know about the HH? Well we'll tell you it but we'll fudge a few major things just to make it more interesting, but none of this really happened'. I get the impression that you don't count the HH books at all which I think is unfair. There are certainly some reasons why to take things with a pinch of salt but to disregard them when they all agree seems foolish.

 

Also you say all players, well I play Chaos and I don't own the Chaos codex and I've not read any of the fluff in there as I tend to find them just summarise events and lack the detail I like.