Interesting confirmation on the Emperor's diabolic dabblings

[Clewz]

The purpose of Black Library novels is not to "cover events". It is to tell dramatic stories. The purpose of Studio material is to define the game world for the players. Even Gav Thorpe, who advocated that no Black Library background should be dismissed as "not canon" pointed out that at a later time the Black Library material might even be adopted by the Studio writers into the "game background".

I have explained before why Black Library material will never be as relevant as Studio material, and the most important reason is that the Black Library material is not officially translated by GW and regularly sold in the GW stores. Every player who wants to get into the game will get the Codex for his army and then read the background inside of it. Black Library books are not sold officially at all the international GW stores, so you cannot claim that they have the same relevance to the hobby background. Black Library material is not meant to define the game background.

Well the authors themselves seem to be mixed in their views, some claiming BL is and some not. Seen as Gav doesn't work for the company any more and I wouldn't have considered him an official spokes person for the company I don't know how relevant a quote from him is. The higher ups seem to contradict each other anyway.

 

Whether the books are not as relevant as things like codexes or not it doesn't mean they're completely irrelevant and shouldn't be discarded as a source. The fact is they are a much richer source of information on that particular time line. The books all seem to converge on these points so you could say 'author conspiracy' but it's most likely the case that they wanted to make some money by expanding the information on the heresy as things had touched on it but not in this much detail. The older stuff was all written at a time when things were still not set in stone but they wanted to flesh out the background some more. So you get IA which adds more details but at times is still sketchy with the details keeping in a bit loose as they still weren't sure. Personally I think they wanted to solidify these ideas a bit more with the HH series as this was an opportunity to add some real meat. Sure maybe they added some drama to make the books more interesting but for all these books to agree on certain points that are new (but not necessarily said not to have happened by older fluff) to be not actually true seems a bit insulting to the readers. 'Yeah you wanna know about the HH? Well we'll tell you it but we'll fudge a few major things just to make it more interesting, but none of this really happened'. I get the impression that you don't count the HH books at all which I think is unfair. There are certainly some reasons why to take things with a pinch of salt but to disregard them when they all agree seems foolish.

 

Also you say all players, well I play Chaos and I don't own the Chaos codex and I've not read any of the fluff in there as I tend to find them just summarise events and lack the detail I like.

 

current codex is pretty rubbish for fluff I feel. Just tells the bare minimum of events

[Ashe Darke]

Why don't you ask Abbadon next time you see him...

 

Because, the Pacification of Sixty-Three Nineteen killed maybe, somewhere in the region of ninety thousand OpFors. As opposed to the entire planetary population when the Tyranids roll up and there is no Imperium to save them.

Ok, first off no Nids back then so saying things like 'it would feed the fleet' doesn't really make sense.

 

So these people don't wanna join them, so they get killed. Say they got left alone, the Orks come along and kill them. How does anything change other than the Imperium now has a new planet for resources if they do it themselves? Well if they want resources that's kinda harsh and if they're not after resources then why kill them?

 

The only threats are Orks, Eldar, a whole of aliens we don't know of and Chaos. So Orks, who cares, they'll die anyway. If the Imperium don't care about them enough to allow them to join the Imperium then why should they care if the Orks have them. Eldar kinda the same although they keep to themselves. Alien, meh. And Chaos will probably remain contained to that planet, not that Chaos doesn't appear on Imperial planets anyway.

 

Sure you could say that maybe the Orks could use it as a staging ground but surely these planets would be within the area of space that the Imperium controls and they would be well aware of any Orks coming. Or why not go, well we don't agree but do you mind if we stage an out post here as well as much as we don't like you we don't want aliens to take your planet so if they come along we'll stop them. Hell you could even wait for the aliens to come do it then kill the aliens, that's more humane than what they did do.

[Legatus]

Whether the books are not as relevant as things like codexes or not it doesn't mean they're completely irrelevant and shouldn't be discarded as a source. The fact is they are a much richer source of information on that particular time line.

At 400+ pages, compared to 10 pages in a Codex or White Dwarf, they better be. That does not stop it from being less valid information.

 

 

I get the impression that you don't count the HH books at all which I think is unfair. There are certainly some reasons why to take things with a pinch of salt but to disregard them when they all agree seems foolish.

If a Black Library book describes how Captain Whatshisname kills a bunch of Xenos then, ok, that Captain probably exists, and he probably did that. (Unless he is a moronic Ultramarine, in which case it is just a fairy tale told by Imperial citicens to their kids.) But where the Black Library novels differ with Studio fluff I pretty much disregard them. THat includes entirely new twists that had never been described in the Studio canon background. Two Alpha Legion Primarchs? Not unless it gets described in the next Codex Chaos Space Marines. Webway ploy by the Emperor? I don't recall reading about that (but as I said, that may just be my memory playing tricks on me).

 

 

So these people don't wanna join them, so they get killed. Say they got left alone, the Orks come along and kill them. How does anything change other than the Imperium now has a new planet for resources if they do it themselves?

Either there are 5 populated Imperial sectory in that region of space, or there are 4 populated Imperial sectors in that space, plus a separatist human colony. When the Waaagh hits, which set up would be preferable? It may not hurt the Imperium if that colony is raided by the Waaagh first, but it will be a disadvantage that they can then only consolidate the forces of four sectors as a response to the Waaagh instead of the forces of 5 sectors.

[Ashe Darke]

Regarding the Webway I'm looking into that as I've read that it's in Collected Visions. The GW site says this about the book;

 

With text by Alan Merrett, an instrumental figure in the development of the Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 background

 

So it appears to be at least in part written by the daddy off 40k and HH fluff. So if it's in there then that's a pretty big yes to it not being an author thing. And either way it still doesn't seem like a good plan to save humanity.

 

'We can now safely travels to certain locations'

 

'Well what about every day life? What about Chaos Cults, aliens and all other sorts of bad things? We can't just hide in the Web Way forever'

 

'Ahhh ummm well, safe warp travel woooo!!'

 

It's the same as promising no one will ever get ran over crossing the road again but ignoring the rest of the world's dangers. Maybe there is more to the webway but it's not been explained. I hope they do explain it, I do hope he was right in all he did but working on what we know I'm on the fence on the matter.

 

As for the 4 vs 5 planets, well like I said at least try and leave an outpost. You can't deny that they're a ruthless society. They do what they apparently need to regardless of who gets in the way. Sure it might be better for them but why is their needs more important than that of others? It's still not exactly the kind of glorious Empire we're lead to believe. Even the Remembrancers are shocked at what the Astartes end up doing on some planets.

 

As for disregarding new stuff, I can see why you could feel the need to with new stuff that contradicts old, but what about new stuff that isn't contradicted? Like it never said 'And the Emperor reunited humanity and never hit any resistance, ever, in fact everyone signed up straight away easy as pie'. So then another source that is also designed to be entertainment says that it wasn't always easy in getting people to join comes a long. It doesn't contradict anything but it's going to be ignored because it's from BL? As arguably less valid these sources are, they're still not invalid, not completely. I am also in the mind that some of the studio fluff isn't necessarily what they want the history to be any more (the shops direction is changing after all), but back then they had to put something, they didn't commit fully because they didn't have the details to do it, no one had written it yet. Think of it like something like Lost. They do a series and it establishes some stuff, but then later on they wanna do something else, this cool idea, but there's a problem as some of it contradicts and the older stuff has already been around for ages, but instead of doing what they do on Lost and dig a hole until they come out on the other side trying to make it work, GW just go well it's kinda true and not true at the same time. Thus allowing them to write what they want. I mean you can't expect them to have the whole scope of the crusade sorted right from the start of the idea. They said it happened ok, I doubt they knew if it went off without a hitch or not, just that it happened. So when it comes to fill in details of that time they almost have a blank canvass for what they didn't cover. 'Hey, how about we have it that the crusade met resistance at some points, it adds more flavour to it'. I personally prefer the story of grey vs evil. It's less cliche than good vs evil.

 

Regarding Alpha and Omega, it's an interesting twist but it can be chalked down to being an Abnettism and some of his stuff should be ignored. Flecting is another one.

[Legatus]

Regarding the Webway I'm looking into that as I've read that it's in Collected Visions. The GW site says this about the book;

 

With text by Alan Merrett, an instrumental figure in the development of the Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 background

So it appears to be at least in part written by the daddy off 40k and HH fluff. So if it's in there then that's a pretty big yes to it not being an author thing. And either way it still doesn't seem like a good plan to save humanity.

Alan Merrett is often cited as the head 40K fluff guy as an argument for why the Horus Heresy novels should indeed be taken as canon. But when there are some Horus Heresy novels that speak of 100,000 strong Legions where the latest two Marine Codices mention 10,000 strong Legions, he is either not doing a good job with the Horus Heresy fact checking or with the Codex facts. In either case you have to wonder how much he really has the final word on fluff related issues. He is certainly described as having such a position in some GW sources. But I think it is something like "IP manager", so I suspect a bit that he might not check all the facts for consistency and validity, but merely whether they would fit into the overall atmosphere and theme of 40K or not.

 

I.E. when Alan merrett is approached by Gav Thorpe, who proposes that the Raven Guard should have a "smaller" Legion size of 80,000 compared to the average 100,000, I would expect him to say something like "but Legions are supposed to be about 10,000 strong", while in reality he might simply say somethintg like "Raven Guard? Oh, yeah, they could be a smaller Legion. That would be ok."

 

 

As for the 4 vs 5 planets, well like I said at least try and leave an outpost. You can't deny that they're a ruthless society. They do what they apparently need to regardless of who gets in the way. Sure it might be better for them but why is their needs more important than that of others?

In the 4 vs. 5 scenario it would be beneficial for the separatists if they had joined (or even forced to join) the Imperium.

 

4 Imperials plus 1 Separatist: The Waaagh raids the separatist world, then they stand against the forces fo 4 Imperial worlds.

 

5 Imperial worlds (one of them were formerly separatists): The Waaagh stands against the forces of 5 Imperial worlds.

 

Even if they had been forced into compliance, the second alternative would be preferrable. Obviously the best possible outcome would have been if no one would bother the separatists, ever.

 

 

I am also in the mind that some of the studio fluff isn't necessarily what they want the history to be any more (the shops direction is changing after all), but back then they had to put something, they didn't commit fully because they didn't have the details to do it, no one had written it yet. Think of it like something like Lost. They do a series and it establishes some stuff, but then later on they wanna do something else, this cool idea, but there's a problem as some of it contradicts and the older stuff has already been around for ages, but instead of doing what they do on Lost and dig a hole until they come out on the other side trying to make it work, GW just go well it's kinda true and not true at the same time.

In some instances fluff might develope into more than it had originally been. But some things had been intentionally established at the beginning, which would be a drastic change if they were altered later. If the 2nd Edition explains that the Emperor wanted to save mankind from extinction and is indeed a "good guy", then a Black Library novel saying (as an example, I don't think any novel says that) that he only did all of that for his own good would be quite a fundamental change.

[Ashe Darke]

Alan Merrett is often cited as the head 40K fluff guy as an argument for why the Horus Heresy novels should indeed be taken as canon. But when there are some Horus Heresy novels that speak of 100,000 strong Legions where the latest two Marine Codices mention 10,000 strong Legions, he is either not doing a good job with the Horus Heresy fact checking or with the Codex facts. In either case you have to wonder how much he really has the final word on fluff related issues. He is certainly described as having such a position in some GW sources. But I think it is something like "IP manager", so I suspect a bit that he might not check all the facts for consistency and validity, but merely whether they would fit into the overall atmosphere and theme of 40K or not.

 

I.E. when Alan merrett is approached by Gav Thorpe, who proposes that the Raven Guard should have a "smaller" Legion size of 80,000 compared to the average 100,000, I would expect him to say something like "but Legions are supposed to be about 10,000 strong", while in reality he might simply say somethintg like "Raven Guard? Oh, yeah, they could be a smaller Legion. That would be ok."

Surely you'd expect them to put someone in that position who gives a damn? Silly GW. I have this image of a guy who sits behind his desk all day and will answer questions that he gets asks but isn't necessarily checking everything that get written. To be honest it would be a daunting task to check everything, all codexes and BL novels, making sure things match up and slot in nicely. Eisenhorn has him meeting remnants of a guard unit that were driven crazy because of a Nid attack despite the fact that the Imperium hadn't met Nids at this point. Mistakes do get made. Besides your example works on them actually throwing number at the guy when that might not necessarily have happened. Most these books have spelling mistakes and other errors in them and if he didn't ask about the numbers then how is an editor to know if it's supposed to be 8,000 or 80,000?

 

This is also something he wrote himself at least in part, so it's not like he was having an off/lazy day or he didn't get asked about a certain thing, seen as it probably came from him I'm pretty sure he is aware that it is in there and has decided whether it is fitting with the 40k theme or not.

 

In the 4 vs. 5 scenario it would be beneficial for the separatists if they had joined (or even forced to join) the Imperium.

 

4 Imperials plus 1 Separatist: The Waaagh raids the separatist world, then they stand against the forces fo 4 Imperial worlds.

 

5 Imperial worlds (one of them were formerly separatists): The Waaagh stands against the forces of 5 Imperial worlds.

 

Even if they had been forced into compliance, the second alternative would be preferrable. Obviously the best possible outcome would have been if no one would bother the separatists, ever.

You seemed to miss the point I was trying to make here. Sure it's beneficial to them but for them to wipe out a planet because it suits their needs but it is still bad. It disregards other people's right to existence as they place their own right to live over theirs. Still not a particularly nice. 'You gonna join us? No well we're gonna kill you because we can't trust you to hold up your own in case you get attacked. To be honest we'd much rather have the planet, we'd feel a lot happier about it. So if you'd just die now that would be great'. They don't even allow them to go off and live on whatever ships they have left leaving the planet to the Imperium.

 

In some instances fluff might develope into more than it had originally been. But some things had been intentionally established at the beginning, which would be a drastic change if they were altered later. If the 2nd Edition explains that the Emperor wanted to save mankind from extinction and is indeed a "good guy", then a Black Library novel saying (as an example, I don't think any novel says that) that he only did all of that for his own good would be quite a fundamental change.

 

Well precisely, I'm not arguing that it's all 100% correct, I'm just talking about the things regarding his motives for the crusade and the actions the Imperium takes under his instructions during that period, not things like twin primarchs etc. His motives and goings on from planet to planet during the crusade are not covered so I think they're fair game. I'm not saying I think he did it for his own gain, to be honest I'm not sure why he did it. There is little of him explaining why he wants to unite mankind etc so we can only guess as to why. I personally try and work off text rather than speculating.

[Legatus]

You seemed to miss the point I was trying to make here. Sure it's beneficial to them but for them to wipe out a planet because it suits their needs but it is still bad. It disregards other people's right to existence as they place their own right to live over theirs. Still not a particularly nice. 'You gonna join us? No well we're gonna kill you because we can't trust you to hold up your own in case you get attacked. To be honest we'd much rather have the planet, we'd feel a lot happier about it. So if you'd just die now that would be great'. They don't even allow them to go off and live on whatever ships they have left leaving the planet to the Imperium.

Cultures that do not want to join the Imperium are not usually anihilated, they are defeated militarily and are forced to join. Is there a particular story where they anihilate a whole culture because they refused to join the Imperium?

 

 

Well precisely, I'm not arguing that it's all 100% correct, I'm just talking about the things regarding his motives for the crusade and the actions the Imperium takes under his instructions during that period, not things like twin primarchs etc. His motives and goings on from planet to planet during the crusade are not covered so I think they're fair game.

But I disagree, I think his motives are a fundamentally important element, and in the fluff that had been given in rulebooks and Codices so far it was the unification of the human worlds that was his goal. Changing his motives for the Crusade changes the whole issue quite drastically I would say.

[Ashe Darke]

Not as such, some fates are left open ended. Still they muscle in and kill because they want that planet. STILL not that nice. Sure the population gives in, eventually, as they don't want to die but I doubt they're happy about it. No part of forced compliance can paint a nice picture about what they do. It's still them taking what they want as they rate themselves above others.

 

Well I don't doubt he's trying to save mankind and it's only really imaginative people who think he's a 5th God or something, I just don't know how he's planning to do it. We arguably have the case of the webway (looking now but I think I'll probably end up getting back to you in a few days on that one, loooong book) which as I've said, not that helpful as far as we know. This part of the discussion seems to be a bit moot now. I don't think we disagree on his motives and I don't think any of the fluff disagrees with what we think. Your response stemmed from me using the word motive when I meant to put method. Sorry about that. I just don't see why he cares about humans. He very much above them and will live forever, unless he know they are the reason for the Chaos Gods and wants to save them from them while eliminating the gods. He just seems to have this odd affinity to them that hasn't been explained. I don't count him as human yet he wants to rule and protect them.

[A D-B]

Actually, can you name a non-BL source that mentions a secret webway agenda? Perhaps there were such sources and I just don't remember them, but for the time being I am going ahead and wager that the story about the great crusade and teh unification of mankind is long time 40K lore, while the secret webway ploy has been tacked on by a Black Library author. So basically, his plan used to have worked pretty well, until some BL author retconned it into having had an entirely different goal, and suddenly the plan did not work out. I think I will be sticking with studio background with this.

 

Horus Heresy: The Collected Visions, is by Alan Merrett, who controls the Games Workshop intellectual property. While there's always the debate over BL's canon credentials, the HH novels are essentially the canon explanation of what happened back then. They're based on the work of the IP manager, and he sits in every meeting, passing judgement on whatever he wants to pass judgement on. This is the guy that decides what becomes lore and what doesn't, across the entire GW brand. He oversees what lore goes into codices, too. Everything.

 

And he was the one who revealed the truth about the Emperor's webway plan.

 

What you have with the HH series is the way for all of this never-told lore to be revealed, rather than going completely ignored and unseen, because it has no real relevance in a codex and wouldn't get mentioned. I'm not advocating the canon of BL, but where the HH is concerned, you have the guy who essentially invented the Horus Heresy's details telling it in HH:CV, and him overseeing the rest of us and making sure our ideas fit in with it. It doesn't get mentioned in codices, really. This is the only place, and that's sort of the point. This is where the previously secret history is revealed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, can you name a non-BL source that mentions a secret webway agenda? Perhaps there were such sources and I just don't remember them, but for the time being I am going ahead and wager that the story about the great crusade and teh unification of mankind is long time 40K lore, while the secret webway ploy has been tacked on by a Black Library author. So basically, his plan used to have worked pretty well, until some BL author retconned it into having had an entirely different goal, and suddenly the plan did not work out. I think I will be sticking with studio background with this.

 

The problem is, this 'untrustworthy' BL material comes straight from Alan Merret himself, the guy in charge of 40k background. As much as you may dislike BL, if it's Alan Merret saying it, then it's true, and Merret has said the Emperors secret project was an Imperial Webway. I don't like it any more than you do.

[Draeden]

You seemed to miss the point I was trying to make here. Sure it's beneficial to them but for them to wipe out a planet because it suits their needs but it is still bad. It disregards other people's right to existence as they place their own right to live over theirs. Still not a particularly nice. 'You gonna join us? No well we're gonna kill you because we can't trust you to hold up your own in case you get attacked. To be honest we'd much rather have the planet, we'd feel a lot happier about it. So if you'd just die now that would be great'. They don't even allow them to go off and live on whatever ships they have left leaving the planet to the Imperium.

Cultures that do not want to join the Imperium are not usually anihilated, they are defeated militarily and are forced to join. Is there a particular story where they anihilate a whole culture because they refused to join the Imperium?

 

 

Iterators. I believe this is covered in the Horus Heresy series. The Astartes and Imperial Regiments move in, crush a worlds military, then they send in the Iterators to systematically change everyones belief from whatever it happened to be to the Secular Truth of the Imperium. They don't go into it, but near the start of Horus Rising, they had that Artist listening in to an Iterators speech on Sixty-Three-Nineteen. Preeching on about the glory of the Imperium and how it's soo much better. Sindermann even goes onto it briefly about how he's converted entire worlds beliefs into that of the Imperiums. How is that not destroying a worlds culture?

 

And also in Horus Rising, Horus himself mentions how that when the Emperor was around guiding the fleets, it was just one massive conquest over another. The Emperor never even thought of trying to achieve peaceful alliances. And Horus wanted to try something different, and he was succeeding with the Interex until Erebus went off and screwed the entire thing up.

[Legatus]

What you have with the HH series is the way for all of this never-told lore to be revealed, rather than going completely ignored and unseen, because it has no real relevance in a codex and wouldn't get mentioned. I'm not advocating the canon of BL, but where the HH is concerned, you have the guy who essentially invented the Horus Heresy's details telling it in HH:CV, and him overseeing the rest of us and making sure our ideas fit in with it. It doesn't get mentioned in codices, really. This is the only place, and that's sort of the point. This is where the previously secret history is revealed.

All that sounded plausble enough. The GW IP head guy overseeing the Horus Heresy books and therefor making them official canon. But why then are there these differences between Horus Heresy material and older as well as newer Codex material? Why the different Legion sizes? You would think that was one of the more interresting details than to just let any author arbitrarily pick the nuber he likes. Aren't there Land Speeders in the Collected Visions artbook? Weren't they found after the Heresy? Maybe not. I found a few web sources claiming that, but I was not yet able to find a printed GW source. But how about Assault Cannons, or Scouts?

Why are some of the origin stories so different not only from the Codex descripton but also from the more detailed Index Astartes versions, whose whole purpose was to give a more detailed description? In the Index Astartes Alpha Legion their motivation to turn against their brothers is the same as it had been in the Chaos Codices, they desparately wanted to prove their worth and relished in defeating other Legions in battle. That does not feel like Alan Merrett ist finally telling the whole story. It feels like he is changing his mind about it.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Its because 1 man can't really keep that much info in his head without making slips from time to time. Hell, I get information about my own DIY chapter wrong while planning a new bit all the time, and its just me and I have no pressure to finish it now or anything.

[Ashe Darke]

The problem arises when you have tens of people all with different degrees of knowledge on the background all writing things (over an extended period of time) that are considered official, probably with poor communication between these people, and the subject of what they were writing has also had a shifting direction throughout time. Is it any surprise that things are a bit shakey. Look how many factors there are;

 

10's of writers

Each has different POVs and varying amounts of knowledge of the subject

Writing over and extended period of time

Poor communication

Shifting direction

 

To be honest I'd be surprised if there weren't any contradictions. It also depends on what you consider to be more reliable. Codex fluff is re-written each edition to better suit the content of the book, and I imagine writing the same thing each time gets boring so putting a spin on things or adding stuff makes its more interesting. There is also the need to make it fit in with current stuff otherwise it stagnates. They also lack detail and is generally written by varying people so I call into question their reliability. 'The codex says so' is not a credible way of backing up a point regarding fluff in my opinion as it's not definitive. Some other guy will end up re-writing in a few years and probably make some mistakes again.

 

Collected Visions seems to be written from the POV of someone who is piecing bits of information from the era together, the codexes are also supposed to be Imperial records in book form. Very little information from that period still survives, probably fragmented and I imagine this what the two respective books are supposed to be using as sources so inconsistencies are bound to be around.

 

As for the Alpha Legion side of things, they were supposed to be on a secret mission. It wouldn't be very secret if the Imperium knew, and considering how little information of that era is still known 10,000 years later I'd be surprised if they knew of that nugget of info.

 

The BL books are in a weird sort of way supposed to be a first hand account, although written in the 3rd person, giving you the events as they happened through the eyes of the people there. Any of that personal information surviving into 40k would be miraculous so is it surprising that the sketchy records of 40k don't quite match up with the 'first hand' accounts of 30k. Take any of our historical events from 10,000 years ago and see if all the text on it agrees with each other. Then tell you believe that what they say was ALL that happened back then and that none of the information was lost. I doubt they planned for these inconsistencies to create this air of information being lost over time, it's probably just and excuse to cover up mistakes.

[Draeden]

Way you gotta look at it Legatus, is that the fluff we get presented with each edition, each codex, each Black Library Book, are all drafts. You gotta look at what's presented to you, what's been changed, and what direction the changes are heading towards. The story of Warhammer isn't finalised, it's ongoing and developing. Now that the IP of Warhammer 40k is firmly established, in its 5th edition, it seems they're looking back to M30 and the events of around that time to flesh out the past more detailed.

 

From my understanding of it, back in the early days, the Emperor was indeed a benevolent all powerful being, born from the sacrifice of many. But as the fluff goes on, in recent times with the Horus Heresy Book Series amongst other things, we're seeing a darker side of it all. I'll freely admit my views on the Emperor are extremist, but all recent fluff is pointing out that the Emperor wasn't as pure and mighty as he once was.

 

The numbers of the legions is indeed very questionable, but by the same remark, it's variable. 100,000 seems very epic, but 10,000 has a lot more credence. Trying to apply an arbitrary number to each legion would be difficult, because by doing so you'd start launching into a whole new wave of "Why is x so weak against y when x's numbers are so superior?"

 

The Alpha Legion itself is shown to be an extremely secretive and contradictory legion. Any information with them, it seems to be safest of all to go with "All of it is true. Even the contradictions." Back before the heresy they did have scouts but the scouts didn't exist in as large a role as they do now. Back then Scouts were Neophytes, and not counted amongst the Legions numbers. They were employed in battle but they weren't factored in any real way.

 

I'd say cross-reference everything, primarily taking from the newer fluff and see where older fluff can slot in comfortably. Any areas still missing after that you gotta just take a shot at.

 

Now, for all my preeching that the Emperor was a douche. On the flipside, if the Emperors plan was carried out in its current state. IE, the Emperor dies (for good this time.), all that belief in him would reform into a resounding new Chaos Power, one not stronger but as strong as the other chaos powers. And much of the Ruinous Powers very power itself would be lost because many people who would sway themselves over to the Ruinous Powers might instead find themselves being picked up as a Champion of the Imperium. Continuing on from my example, a Death Company Warrior from the Blood Angels. Proficient in combat, hateful being. Perfect for a Champion of Khorne. But his mind is so locked up in the Sacrifice of Sanguinus that instead he would become an Aspiring Champion of Imperium (and in some ways this is how I'm currently viewing the Blood Angels Daemon Prince rip off). So if the Emperor died now, rather than before, I'd say his death would be for the good. Where as before if he entered the warp himself, it would be a sign of power-cravings...

[Legatus]

So in the end, no matter the intentions by Alan Merrett, you have two different souces telling two different stories. You have the Codex stories, which are expected to be read by anyone who has an interrest in that army, and you have the Black Library novels, which are not officially distributed by GW outside the english speaking comunities. In that scenario you can still not claim that the Black Library books have more validity than the Studio sources, which are officially distributed everywhere the game is sold.

 

For instance, a player in spain may claim "I have the Codex Chaos Space Marines from all Editions and bougth the 4th Index Astartes book a few years ago, and they all say that the Alpha Legion betrayed the Imperium because they wanted to fight other loyalist Astartes."

Then someone else comes along and explains to him: "Well, that is incorrect. The true story is explained in this Black Library novel. Of course you might not be aware of that, since the books are not sold in spain*. It is your responsibility to keep up with developements and order the newest novels from BL UK. I hope your english is good."

 

 

*I don't know whether the Black Library books are translated into spanish. I know they are translated into german and french by a respective local publisher, not by the local GW branches as the game material is. At least on the GW website they only sell the english books on all regional pages (french, spanish, german, etc.), even though there are actually french and german translations for some of the books. I checked "Horus Rising", and GW only sells the english book on their website, even if you switch to french or german language. But you can get the book in french or german on Amazon.

[A D-B]

So in the end, no matter the intentions by Alan Merrett, you have two different souces telling two different stories. You have the Codex stories, which are expected to be read by anyone who has an interrest in that army, and you have the Black Library novels, which are not officially distributed by GW outside the english speaking comunities. In that scenario you can still not claim that the Black Library books have more validity than the Studio sources, which are officially distributed everywhere the game is sold.

 

For instance, a player in spain may claim "I have the Codex Chaos Space Marines from all Editions and bougth the 4th Index Astartes book a few years ago, and they all say that the Alpha Legion betrayed the Imperium because they wanted to fight other loyalist Astartes."

Then someone else comes along and explains to him: "Well, that is incorrect. The true story is explained in this Black Library novel. Of course you might not be aware of that, since the books are not sold in spain*. It is your responsibility to keep up with developements and order the newest novels from BL UK. I hope your english is good."

 

That's a bit drastic. There's no "responsibility" for anything. You can't say that it's unfair or wrong for any company to release other products that expand upon the lore of something, simply because you dislike the format or it's not available across the world. That's like complaining a TV show gets made into a film, when you were only in the mood to watch the show, and some people don't have DVD players. You may not like it - you may not like that the truth comes out in novels rather than game supplements - but them's kinda the breaks. The company chose to do it. Denying their validity doesn't work. Serenity is canon, even if you just like Firefly. So are the Serenity comics, and although I adore Firefly, I have zero desire to read them. I don't accuse anyone of forcing me to have a responsibility to learn the things in the movie or the comics. I draw the line where my interest ends, and if I wanted to know even deeper truths, if I cared that much, I'd watch the movie or read those comics, etc. It's the same for people who like Star Wars. Lucas's Clone Wars animations are canon, and the people who watch them know more about Star Wars than I do. That's just something I can either deal with and accept, or watch the shows to learn more. They won't be un-canon just because I want them to be films instead.

 

There's a difference between the commonplace basic info enough to play a game, and then the actual behind-the-scenes truths that, by their very nature, aren't supposed to show up in 40K "modern" lore. They're the secrets that don't come to light in M41.

 

And ultimately, while BL's general canon status is always vague (Alan Merrett himself says "Everything's canon and nothing's canon in 40K"), the Horus Heresy series is the canon explanation. I accept that some people dislike the lore being expanded on in novels rather than game studio articles, but the company made that call. The game studio articles are ancient, and aren't being updated any time soon. They're, what, 2 editions old? And still not updated or expanded? Maybe they're not really as valid as they're assumed to be, then. After all, they were just magazine articles reissued for sales, almost 10 years ago.

 

Clinging to a handful of basic pages published 10 years ago is fine (I do it myself in a lot of cases - I'm sure we all do*), but it's pretty counterproductive to insist that new stuff is wrong just because it comes in a different format, especially when you specifically have the IP manager choosing to tell the story in this way. Yes, there are contradictions. People make mistakes. But in the case of some contradictions, it's stuff that is allowed to remain vague, as mandated as acceptable from on-high, or (gasp) it's not the novels that are wrong, or better yet: it's an intentional contradiction.

 

Y'know the Alpharius/Omegon reveal was something that's been a secret in 40K lore for 20 years, and Alan Merrett wanted to reveal it in the HH series? It's canonical, right there. Just because it's a secret that doesn't spread to the entire fanbase through Codex: Alpha Legion doesn't devalue their hobby experience, nor does it mean it's not canon. Checks and balances, man.

 

The conflicting legion numbers came from Gav Thorpe and Graham McNeil, incidentally. The only two guys on the HH team that worked in the design studio for a decade or so.

 

 

 

* I do, because they're great.

[Draeden]

Using the Alpha Legion is a poor example. Their entire legion is nothing but secrets and lies. It's still retained in their fluff that they pretty much hated the Ultramarines for Gullimans remarks, and took unnessecarily hard missions to prove themselves superior. It's not much of a stretch to go from: "I'm better than you for doing x" to "I'm better than you by not only kicking your behinds, but by also doing it to save the galaxy from a darker fate."

[A D-B]

Using the Alpha Legion is a poor example. Their entire legion is nothing but secrets and lies. It's still retained in their fluff that they pretty much hated the Ultramarines for Gullimans remarks, and took unnessecarily hard missions to prove themselves superior. It's not much of a stretch to go from: "I'm better than you for doing x" to "I'm better than you by not only kicking your behinds, but by also doing it to save the galaxy from a darker fate."

 

Good point.

 

I should also add, for the record, that I tend to bounce in on Legatus's side when it comes to approval of this thing. I'm not a huge fan of them revealing lore purely through novels. It bugs me hugely, though I guess I understand why it's done.

[Legatus]

There's a difference between the commonplace basic info enough to play a game, and then the actual behind-the-scenes truths that, by their very nature, aren't supposed to show up in 40K "modern" lore. They're the secrets that don't come to light in M41.

That makes it sound like at the core there is the 40K universe narrative which is further fleshed out in the Horus Heresy novels while the Warhammer 40K game system is just a spin-off based on that narrative. I would rather say the game system is the core and the stories provide the backdrop for the game. (This makes the Warhammer 40K canon situation quite a bit different from the Star Wars or Star Trek or other universes that start with a story.) Thus the main imperative should be to give the player who decides to play an Alpha Legion army the main aspects and the "true story" to the army he chose in the Codex, and not just the most basic overview he needs to know to be able to field them. The Horus Heresy books are a supplement, they are not the main course or the essential source for any particular faction. The information that a player gets in the Codex for his chosen army must not be incorrect or ambiguous, to be explained correctly in more detail at some other place. Even if space is limited, it has to be the essential information for that army.

 

 

About the Alpha Legion in particular, I have not read "Legion", but I thought I read a small remark from Alpharius or the other guy where he explains to someone how "Guilliman despises me for the tactics I use, and I tend to just ignore him". Is there really still a sense in that book that the Alpha Legion feels the need to prove themselves to the other Legions?

[A D-B]

...cutting text of Legatus being wise...

 

I definitely agree (and didn't intend for it to sound like the core game was skeletal and near-useless). Overall, I think the communication between divisions in the design and presentation could be way better. But I'm trying to behave a bit for once, so I'll shut up now.

[Legatus]

I am still getting used to being agreed with in the Chaos forums.

 

I hear what you are saying about the route GW and Alan Merrett chose to expand the fluff, but I disagree with that kind of approach. There still is the issue of how the Black Library material is not officially published everywhere the game is sold, which I still think disqualifies the Black Library material from being as canonically valid as the Codices, but perhaps the decision of what is considered canonical and the decision of how the Black Library material is distributed are not made by the same people and thus we have this issue.

[Lexington]

Y'know the Alpharius/Omegon reveal was something that's been a secret in 40K lore for 20 years, and Alan Merrett wanted to reveal it in the HH series?

Quite the "secrets and lies" bunch, those Alpha Legion. So sneaky are they that, 20 years ago, they tricked a young Alan Merrett into originally introducing them as Slaanesh worshippers in "Slaves to Darkness." Then they penned a 2nd Edition Chaos Codex which portrayed them as arrogant, jealous madmen, sneaking it into the GW offices under the guise of Andy Chambers' crazy 90's hair. We won't even talk about what they did to the Index Astartes article - suffice to say, the smell will never come out. :P

[Clewz]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

 

 

Seems more likely that Horus declared all out war on them considering the imperiums view on compliance.

 

Have you even read Horus Rising? That statement is plainly untrue. Horus in fact loves them, because he liked centaurs as a child (long story short).

 

 

Just reread horus rising at the weekend at it directly suggests in the years to come the interex would experience the full force of the astartes

 

(apologies for dragging this up)

[Walter Payton]

The interex seemed to be doing ok. I'm also on about 30k not 40k.

 

Killing them is a better alternative than just leaving them alone?

From what limited information I could gather on this non-canonical (since BL) civilisation it seems that the Imperium was getting along with them untill Erebus caused a conflict to erupt. At the end the Imperium was leaving them alone because they had more pressing matters to attend to, and it is not known what happened to the Interex since then.

 

 

Seems more likely that Horus declared all out war on them considering the imperiums view on compliance.

 

Have you even read Horus Rising? That statement is plainly untrue. Horus in fact loves them, because he liked centaurs as a child (long story short).

 

 

Just reread horus rising at the weekend at it directly suggests in the years to come the interex would experience the full force of the astartes

 

(apologies for dragging this up)

 

Only after Erebus ruins the negotiations by destroying the Hall of Devices. Which is the fault of Chaos, not the Imperium. Horus made every effort to resolve the dispute diplomatically, but Chaos sabotaged the negotiations. If anything, the episode is an indictment of the corrupting power of Chaos and the security arrangements of the Interex.