Marine Walker tactics/discussion

[minigun762]

I'd like to go over some of the techniques people use to keep their walkers alive and useful on the battlefield. For most Marines, walkers = Dreadnoughts but there are also Defilers, Soulgrinders and P. Engines to consider as well.

 

The emphasis here will be less about loadouts and more about tactics and techniques but anything is welcome.

 

From my money, I find they work best as a support unit. Pair them up with a Rhino troop squad and they compliment each other very well. The Troops are better able to handle MCs or fast moving Melta squads that can tear apart the walker and the walker provides some mobile firepower as well as a strong counter-assault element for infantry shredding assaulters.

[ShinyRhino]

I always run Venerable Dreads.

I tend to rely heavily on the Venerable skill. I find it does one of two things: makes the opponent figure they're not worth shooting, since I'll just force a reroll of a Wreck or Explode result; or causes the opponent to dedicate FAR more firepower than is necessary at them in order to get good damage results. Each scenario keeps somehting alive, either the Dreads themselves, or my other armor (Rhinos).

 

I like to deploy these guys either in a mutually-supporting pair, or as flank-defenders. Walkers are very durable against outflanking units, since they're tough to pin a grenade on, and the Venerable skill can mess up even a melta shot at point blank range.

 

I never pod my Dreads, because I don't feel they do well enough alone. My army lacks dedicated long-range fire, since I run a lot of bikers and tactical Marines. Podding Dreads are essentially suicide units, and the base points for a Venerable is just too high for a suicide unit.

 

Never forget that Loyalist Dreads have smoke launchers standard. If you don't have a clean shot at something, and won't gain anything by Running that turn, fire off those smokes to keep yourself ticking.

 

Dreads also have the perfect height and footprint to hide behind a Rhino chassis for a cover save. Use them as interceptors in a slow-moving spearhead behind a Vindicator or two. Anything that survives the pie plate(s) can be intercepted byt he Dreads who have maneuvered out from behind the Vindicators.

[bystrom]

Walkers can run and use smoke launchers... The rulebook says so

Alternatively, they can choose to run like infantry, and this prevents them from firing and assaulting that turn, as normal (though they can still trigger their smoke launchers, if they have any).

[Titan87]

When I can I like to use my Dreads to support my Tactical squads in Rhinos. They work really well in tandem as objective holders/takers. I usually pair up a Tac squad with powerfist and a dread with DCCW+heavy flamer. This unit has almost never failed to take and hold objectives against all but the hardest units.

[Jackelope King]

Just because it needs to be said in a thread discussing walkers...

 

The Rifleman Dreadnought- 2x Twin-Linked Autocannons. You're hitting with almost 90% of your shots. And those shots threaten to wound just about everything on the board on a 2+, and even pile wounds on Tyranid MCs on a 3+. And have a huge range on a semi-mobile platform.

 

A reliable threat and solid pressure on your opponent from the world "go".

[waaanial00]

I generally run 2 dreads now

 

1 Rifleman

1 Lascannon/ML

 

These rarely leave each others side. I find that keeping them together ensures mutual survival or mutual destruction. Either my enemy will be able to bring enough guns to bare to kill one then the other, or they concentrate more on causing damage as a whole to my army and are incapable of puting enough shots onto my dreads to kill them.

 

I try to split my enemies long range shooting by ensuring that I have prime long range threats. I achieve this by taking other units which are dangerous at range, namely Thunderfire cannon and Typhoons. This ensures that what few weapons the enemy does have are further streched.

 

Fastest way of killing a Dreadnought for me - Drop pods. I dont really care how much they take down or distract, thats 105+ points just to throw into the enemies face. For some it seems to work but then its usually only by including lots of units which push close to the enemy turn 1. Its not a play style I enjoy or have been able to make work.

 

Take last nights game for example (I might write the full battle report up a bit later)

 

1500 points VS Orks

 

Librarian

 

Sternguard in Rhino

 

2 Tacticals in Rhino

 

Rifleman Dread

 

Lascannon Dread

 

2 Typhoons

 

2 MM Landspeeders (single MM each)

 

Thunderfire

 

Vs

 

2 Big meks with KFF

 

9 Killa kans with grotzookas

 

2 Deff Dreads All CCW arms

 

2 Trukk mobs

 

1 Ard boy mob

 

 

Now this I believe highlights the different subtle ways in which people try to protect walkers whilst still making them useful.

 

The tactics for the Orks were simple, as they are rather short range they had to get close in order to create enough damage. Being Orks they had a KFF to protect them however thats still only 50% of the time. So he walked and Ran them.

 

However because mine are all long ranged Dreads I was able to hammer the dreads as they were coming in, even with the KFF I was able to kill 3 Kans and 1 Dread in the first round alone. Mainly because he kept them all in the same place. Thus the point above about ensuring either mutual destruction or mutual survival, some of his Walkers survived long enough to actually threaten my objective however because my forces had taken little to no damage due to staying out of his ranged fire (and not getting within Charge range) I was able to take almost all of them out before the game ended (on turn 5).

 

Ok this doesnt particualrly translate 100% to marines however think of it in terms of walker strategy and it is relevant. Close range may be potential for greater impact however its only for a short period of the game (unless you are tarpitting an enemy) and it greatly increases the chance of getting splatted. Whereas long range allows for greater longevity, which could be game winning in terms of Killpoints or late game objective contesting/counter blocking, however potentially less overall impact on the enemy.

 

I think it also nicely illustrates the point of keeping walkers together.

 

 

As for Veteran Dreadnoughts, the problem I have with them is not at all the cost its the abundance of choice and the issues that this causes. To explain what I mean I will give you another example

 

Ven dread is penetrated by a melta, Roll comes up and its a 3 so you are imobilised.

 

Now usually this would be the end of the story however with a Ven Dread you now have several things to calculate in a relatively short space of time, the possible factors are:

 

- Armourment and functioning weapons

- Potential for combat in the short term

- Potential loss of combat in the long term

- Range to enemy

- Range from objectives (are you contesting anyway, is this even a concern)

- Potential to fix immobilised

- Impact of not shooting next turn (should you roll and get a lower result)

- Damage to others should you explode

 

Now this is not an exaustative list but it should give you enough to make my point. In a game like this where it can be as multi dimensional as you want to make it there are enough things to worry about without having to do this kind of on the fly tactical decisions. I find I am fixated very quickly on a small portion of the battle field if I have to do this kind of analysis constantly throughout the game and can easily have something which is potentially a benefit for me turn into a distraction.

 

Obviously if you rolled an explodes the decision is much easier, however I find its the weapon destroyed and imobilised results that make you really think about it. The Melta case is just an extra element to the decision, that +1 becomes very annoying however a straight up roll is sometimes just as risky because even without the +1 you can still roll high.

 

Its a very good rule, dont get me wrong I am not bemoaning it, I like the way in which it should make people think its just that I become too embroiled in questioning the tactical decisions and chance rolling when I shouldnt.

 

Hope this is what you are after.

 

Wan

[Giga]

Dual rifleman dreads are very nice.

 

Keep them moving more or less through the middle of the table (don't put them in a corner). Do your best to keep getting cover saves from anti-tank stuff, while getting yourself clear lines of sight to transports, skimmers, heavy infantry, and the like.

 

This way, you got two walkers with 48" range, covering the entire table, all for 250 pts. Very nice.

[Gaz1858]

Rifleman Dread is an option that alot of people seem to prefer including previous posters, might need to give it a try sometime.

 

The main reason i havent is i prefer to keep the DCCW on my dreads. Having the option to assault with 2 S10 power Weapon attacks is just to good to pass up. I am planning a 1500 point army which looks like this

 

MOTF - PW

Venerable Dread - Assault Cannon

2 x Ironclad Dread

Dread - Twin Linked Lascannon

Dread - Multi-Melta

Terminators - Assault Cannon

3 x Tac (5man) - Power Fist, Razorback

 

I love Dreads and being able to put 5 on the table plus a full unit of Terminators is amazing! I will try the previous examples of pairing a Dread to a Tac sqaud + Razorback which will still leave 2 dreads and the terms to take the fight to the enemy. Likely the Ironclads.

[minigun762]

Great post Waaanial00. I think you did a good job of explaining the logic behind short range vs long range units in general and walkers in particular.

 

Taking your idea of pairing shooty Dreads together, what about pairing close combat Dreads? Does assaulting with 2 Dreads create a better situation then assaulting with just one (besides the obvious 2x the killing power).

[DerekLee688]

I had a dread make it within 12" of a monolith. If I had two I'm sure I could have made it into CC to deliver S:10 hits. Having two hard to kill units traveling with each other drasticaly increase the odds of one makeing to the target. Anyone who's undersands the logic of always running two Landriders understands this. Killing one with two melta shots is dependable, but killing two with two melta shots is alot more unlikely.

 

If I had the parts then mine would be a rifle dread, because right now it is protecting the flank of a vindicator while a landriader protects the other. However, its nice to have that DCCW incase something deepstrikes on/near my front line. I haven't played enough games or agianst enough codexes to know how well this strategy will hold up.

[Gornall]

Taking your idea of pairing shooty Dreads together, what about pairing close combat Dreads? Does assaulting with 2 Dreads create a better situation then assaulting with just one (besides the obvious 2x the killing power).

 

Most units only have 1 PF, so you are almost certain to tarpit the squad you're charging for at least one of your opponent's turns.

[ShinyRhino]

Taking your idea of pairing shooty Dreads together, what about pairing close combat Dreads? Does assaulting with 2 Dreads create a better situation then assaulting with just one (besides the obvious 2x the killing power).

 

Most units only have 1 PF, so you are almost certain to tarpit the squad you're charging for at least one of your opponent's turns.

 

Yes. Doubling the number of Dreads in a combat increases your power exponentially. I once had a Dread tied up in combat with a unit of something like 8 Necron Scarab bases. On his own, he would have just been tarpitted for the whole game as he crushed two bases per turn. But once I charged the second Dread into the combat, I wiped five bases in one round, and was free in one turn, instead of four or five.

And as Gornall said, most units only have one thing that can take down your Dread, be it a Power Klaw, Fist, or a meltabomb. Having two Dreads in the combat forces the opponent to choose which one to try to attack. The Dread that isn't attacked gets free reign over the restof the fight, and can smoosh heads.

[Koremu]

Tactical Squad + Dread works in a fight for the same reason. Who wouldn't want the equivalent of a S10 Power Weapon wielding relentless IC with a Heavy Flamer and an Assault Cannon with them in an Assault? The Tactical Squad can reasonably tarpit the Power Klaw Nob/PFist Sgt, while the Dreadnought hits with shock and awe.

[DerekLee688]

If you got to have a tac squad travel by foot, what's better than a dread for an escort?

[DarkGuard]

I run a very mechanised list, anything that can take a transport does. As I run half company, I can't fit Dreads in at the moment, but beforehand I was using them.

 

I would normally run just the one with DCCW/HF and a TL-lascannon. The lascannon hits pretty much most of the time, and is good at taking out light vehicles. I'd sit this next to my objective defender Tactical Squad (with flamer/PC and Razorback with TL-LC). Together the Dread and Razorback would snipe and take out vehicles from afar, so my MM ABs could deal with the bigger threats left over, while the Tactical Squad would target infantry. If something threatened the Tactical Squad then the Dreadnought moves to intercept.

 

Was pretty effective, and may consider re-instating him in a vanilla list with half company ideas, (just not a full half company).

[waaanial00]

Does assaulting with 2 Dreads create a better situation then assaulting with just one (besides the obvious 2x the killing power).

 

The obvious answer is always yes of course. 2 x the amount of deadliness is always better, though for 2 dreads worth of points you would likely be able to provide some better CC muscle in other units.

 

However if I were to run 2 dreads "close assault" style then I would likely run them as the following patterns

 

Assault Cannon with Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour

Multi Melta with Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour

 

This little combination is now equipped to deal with almost every unit in the game, operating at 24" these two will almost guarantee an impact on vehicles AV12 or less. The extra shots from the Assault Cannon overcomes the 1 shot nature o fthe Multi Melta and the extra Strength and +1 of the Multi Melta overcomes the lack of strength of the Assault Cannon.

 

Both these operating together will likely reduce even a well armoured unit to cinders with the two Heavy Flamers and the 4 S6 shots of the Assault Cannon.

 

It sounds very theoretical but if you pincer an enemy and fire upon it then it should make it harder for the enemy to remove models to deny you combat, OK this only means getting 1 Dread in combat but its worth it if you can fire for effect with both dreads before charging. Obviously this is a very theoretical tactic.

 

As others have stated running dreads with tactical squads is a good idea, however the two distinct different targets this proposes allows someone to deal with the two in two different ways of shooting. However two dreads would force the enemy to dedicate their Anti Tank in one place, possibly opening up an opportunity somewhere else on the battlefield.

 

What I would not do though is run 2 Ironclads together as they would not provide enough to cover the inherent weaknesses that the Ironclad has (very short range). An ironclad with melta and Flamer with and Assault Cannon and Flamer would be nice.

 

Wan

[DarkGuard]

Does assaulting with 2 Dreads create a better situation then assaulting with just one (besides the obvious 2x the killing power).

 

...

 

However if I were to run 2 dreads "close assault" style then I would likely run them as the following patterns

 

Assault Cannon with Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour

Multi Melta with Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour

 

This little combination is now equipped to deal with almost every unit in the game, operating at 24" these two will almost guarantee an impact on vehicles AV12 or less. The extra shots from the Assault Cannon overcomes the 1 shot nature o fthe Multi Melta and the extra Strength and +1 of the Multi Melta overcomes the lack of strength of the Assault Cannon.

 

Both these operating together will likely reduce even a well armoured unit to cinders with the two Heavy Flamers and the 4 S6 shots of the Assault Cannon.

...

 

What I would not do though is run 2 Ironclads together as they would not provide enough to cover the inherent weaknesses that the Ironclad has (very short range). An ironclad with melta and Flamer with and Assault Cannon and Flamer would be nice.

 

Wan

 

This last bit in particular is pretty good IMO. While the Ironclad is more expensive, running it as melta and flamer alongside a Dread with AC and HF would be good as waaanial100 says. When confronting infantry then the normal Dread can focus on getting the numbers of that infantry unit down and the Ironclad can assault and clear up the remains with its increased amount of attacks. Don't worry about getting the normal Dread in if the Ironclad is around, although if you can the more the merrier.

 

However, it would be less well equipped to deal with tanks at range with no MM, and the fact that the meltagun has half the range of the MM. Of course, up close you'll fair better.

 

I'd say you could possibly play two Ironclads together, outfit one of them with a hurricane bolter. Longer range, but it won't be as effective as an assault cannon, so unless AV13 means a lot to you I'd stick with waaanial's suggestion.

[minigun762]

I would normally run just the one with DCCW/HF and a TL-lascannon. The lascannon hits pretty much most of the time, and is good at taking out light vehicles. I'd sit this next to my objective defender Tactical Squad (with flamer/PC and Razorback with TL-LC). Together the Dread and Razorback would snipe and take out vehicles from afar, so my MM ABs could deal with the bigger threats left over, while the Tactical Squad would target infantry. If something threatened the Tactical Squad then the Dreadnought moves to intercept.

 

Interesting, I might try that out with my Defiler. I tend to use them more aggressively but simply camping an objective and lobbing shells with at Rhino squad's support seems like a good plan.

[DarkGuard]

I would normally run just the one with DCCW/HF and a TL-lascannon. The lascannon hits pretty much most of the time, and is good at taking out light vehicles. I'd sit this next to my objective defender Tactical Squad (with flamer/PC and Razorback with TL-LC). Together the Dread and Razorback would snipe and take out vehicles from afar, so my MM ABs could deal with the bigger threats left over, while the Tactical Squad would target infantry. If something threatened the Tactical Squad then the Dreadnought moves to intercept.

 

Interesting, I might try that out with my Defiler. I tend to use them more aggressively but simply camping an objective and lobbing shells with at Rhino squad's support seems like a good plan.

 

Yeah, I reckon Defiler's could possibly perform this role better with their battle cannon and multiple close combat weapons. When I run a Dread like that I never expect it to do a lot, but even if a unit doesn't come close to the Tactical Squad in fear of getting mashed with a DCCW it's done a reasonable job no?

[minigun762]

With the idea of target saturation, is it safe to say that more Dreads is usually better or do you reach a point where they become more of an liability?

[Mithril hound]

Im going to be running a poding, melta/cc dread. Its purpose will be to kill tanks(i have NO RANGED AT) and to draw fire from my terminators.

[Tangamarine]

I use 2 dreads with plasma cannons to guard the flanks of my vindicators and rhinos, anything wanting to deepstrike near me is toast, and can help out in assault

[DarkGuard]

With the idea of target saturation, is it safe to say that more Dreads is usually better or do you reach a point where they become more of an liability?

 

I really depends what other units you include in your list. More Dreads could be better, but even one Dread can last long while in a good list. I had two Rhinos with 10 man Tactical Squads, Vulkan and 5 Sternguard (with HFs) in a Razorback, a TL-LC Razorback and a Land Speeder Typhoon in my army. People were normally more worried about the Tacticals and Vulkan to give the Dread much thought. It's one TL-LC and transports aren't so prevalent in my LGS (although they are becoming more so recently). There was no real concentrated fire power brought against it so it normally survived to the end of the game.

 

I'd imagine the inclusion of Dreads in some lists which include Land Raiders with Assault Terminators, Vindicators, HF/MM Speeders and combi-preds plus the couple of Rhinos with Tactical Squads would result in easier survivability due to targt saturation then in my list.

 

The only problem with including multiple Dreads for target saturation is that the Elites (and Heavy Supports) options often have a lot of other good choices. I wouldn't run more than 2 Dreads in a list (3 if I had MotF). It comes down to what you prefer and what you want to do with your army.

[Warprat]

As for Veteran Dreadnoughts, the problem I have with them is not at all the cost its the abundance of choice and the issues that this causes. To explain what I mean I will give you another example

 

Ven dread is penetrated by a melta, Roll comes up and its a 3 so you are imobilised.

 

Now usually this would be the end of the story however with a Ven Dread you now have several things to calculate in a relatively short space of time, the possible factors are:

 

- Armourment and functioning weapons

- Potential for combat in the short term

- Potential loss of combat in the long term

- Range to enemy

- Range from objectives (are you contesting anyway, is this even a concern)

- Potential to fix immobilised

- Impact of not shooting next turn (should you roll and get a lower result)

- Damage to others should you explode

 

Now this is not an exaustative list but it should give you enough to make my point. In a game like this where it can be as multi dimensional as you want to make it there are enough things to worry about without having to do this kind of on the fly tactical decisions. I find I am fixated very quickly on a small portion of the battle field if I have to do this kind of analysis constantly throughout the game and can easily have something which is potentially a benefit for me turn into a distraction.

 

Obviously if you rolled an explodes the decision is much easier, however I find its the weapon destroyed and imobilised results that make you really think about it. The Melta case is just an extra element to the decision, that +1 becomes very annoying however a straight up roll is sometimes just as risky because even without the +1 you can still roll high.

 

Its a very good rule, dont get me wrong I am not bemoaning it, I like the way in which it should make people think its just that I become too embroiled in questioning the tactical decisions and chance rolling when I shouldnt.

 

 

Wan

 

 

 

Strangely enough, the points you made above have convinced me that Venerable Dreads provide more flexability than I had previously considered. I have changed my opinion from firmly believeing they are not worth the points, to now actually considering them potentially worth it.

 

Thanks!