"We Have Come For You"

[Archnomad]

Yeah, I'm going to get back into my Night Lords, but not in the usual way.

 

I'm going to *hides behind something* do it with Space Wolves.

 

But wait! Hear me out. I plan on taking Logan Grimnar (Wolf Guard as Troops) to be Krieg, my Axemaster. My Wolf Guard are basic CSM, as they have 2A each, LD9, etc, and I always did think "Why is my 10,000 year old veteran as good as this 30 year old marine?". No Land Speeders, no LRRs or LRCs, No Storm shields etc. Mark of the Wulfen = Possessed (Krieg is likey the chaos powers). I can have a Rune Priest for my sorcerer with Stormcaller (Warpstorm) and Living Lightning (Warp Lightning). And there we have it.

 

A few pre emptive strikes;

 

"But, but, you have and they shall know no fear!"

 

Sorry. My Ten Thousand Year Old Marines, who fought THROUGH the great crusade, IN the Horus Heresy, and SURVIVED, suddenly lost their courage? I admit, if any legion was unlikely to have ATSKNF it's probably IW/AL and NLs, but still! If 30 year old sapling chapter can have it, then so the hell can we!

 

"But, frost weapons!"

 

Daemon weapons. That aren't crap.

 

"But, post heresy tech!"

 

I said I wont be using it.

 

"But, post heresy tech! Logan has a stormbolter!"

 

Ah. Emmm.... next question?

 

"You have drop pods!"

 

Yes, the Night Lords do. And what?

 

 

 

 

Right, all the standard BS about this out the way. Anyone got some constructive comments/arguments or feedback to make? Why it wouldn't be a good idea, why someone else could do it better, etc. The ONLY thing that bothers me, is that Skyclaws are WS/BS3. However, I can *grimaces at the cost* Give my Wolf Guard jump packs. I do need at least one raptor squad. We'll see.

 

 

~{Archy}~

[Legatus]

"But, but, you have and they shall know no fear!"

 

Sorry. My Ten Thousand Year Old Marines, who fought THROUGH the great crusade, IN the Horus Heresy, and SURVIVED, suddenly lost their courage? I admit, if any legion was unlikely to have ATSKNF it's probably IW/AL and NLs, but still! If 30 year old sapling chapter can have it, then so the hell can we!

No, they did not lose their courage. What they lost was the dedication to a cause and being prepared to sacrifice themselves for it or for their brothers in arms. Loyal Space Marines will stand and die for their cause or their brothers if they have to. Chaos Marines are concerned first and foremost with their own well being. They fight for loot or out of hate/pleasure. There is no incentive to sacrifice yourself just so that your "comrades" can be victorious and claim all the loot or keep raiding Imperial worlds.

 

It is also a misconception that a failed morale test and a retreat equals your men running away scared :cussless. As the rulebook explains, it is a fighting retread in the face of great adversity. It is not "Aaaah, omygod, we are all gonna die!", it is "Nah, this is not working out. Let's try that again later."

 

From the Rulebook, page 45, "Fall Back!":

A fall back move is a fighting withdrawal rather than an out-and-out rout. Sometimes a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds is the only option left. A withdrawal can give troops the chance to retire to a stronger position, to regroup and mount a fresh attack, or to hold back the approaching enemy.

 

I.E. if a Chaos Marine squad (or Imperial, or Eldar, or Ork squad) fails it's morale test, that means they have decided that they cannot win/survive against the current odds and need to fall back to a better position to have any chance at all. Higher Leadership value means they have more confidence in the face of greater odds, while low Leadership means that even lesser threats will make the unit consider their position.

 

If a Space Marine squad fails it's morale test, they also have decided that they cannot win/survive against the current odds, but their devotion to their cause and to their brothers means that they will keep on fighting, and perhaps dying, anyway.

 

 

So, no, Chaos Space Marines should not have ATSKNF under any circumstances. It is not because they are not brave, it is because they are not loyal to anything but themselves. This rule has been the main distinguishing trait between Chaos Marines and loyal marines ever since I can remember. In 2nd Edition that was the "break test" rule, and since 3rd Edition it has been ATSKNF. In the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos it is even specifically pointed out as the key difference in the introduction by Jervis Johnson:

"The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his Imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefor does not benefit from the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away."

[Hellios]

except... some chaos are more loyal than loyalist marines... they are called cult troopers.

 

Also Horus had a storm-bolter... apparently... go BL!

[A D-B]

except... some chaos are more loyal than loyalist marines... they are called cult troopers.

 

Also Horus had a storm-bolter... apparently... go BL!

 

Tell me, with a straight face, that "he fired a combi-bolter" is good writing.

[Legatus]

except... some chaos are more loyal than loyalist marines... they are called cult troopers.

That' not loyalty. That's insanity.

[Yogi]

Do it but dont expect people to be happy about it.

 

I couldn't care less what codex your using. But Im SURE someone will.

 

Also Why not wait 1 month and use the blood angels one. It will be jumpackers ahoy in that one.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Whatever floats your boat.

As mentioned earlier, I'm pretty sure someone down the line will care if you pull this on them, but if its just for friendly games then hey, knock yourself out.

[Eripu]

I would second the wait for C:BA before doing too much. Possible jump pack infantry as troops...

 

Working Death Company in could be interesting though, depending on how it works. I personally wouldn't have a problem playing against you... you're just painting your wolves differently. But they are still wolves. Not CSM ;)

[Dan The Deamon]

It is a little unorthodox, yes, but really it is legal. There is nothing stopping you from creating a space wolf army with blue armor and lightning streaks and calling them the Thunder of Fenris!

As long as each weapon, character, or unit entry looks like it's wolf counterpart you shouldn't encounter too many problems. Another thing to consider, if you're looking for friendly pick up games with people you haven't played before, call each unit and each piece of wargear what it actually is. Don't assume they would know that Krieg is actually logan, or Night Claws are actually wolf claws. If you have a smaller more tight knit gaming circle you could probably get away with a little more creative freedom.

 

I say go for it. It looks like it might be fun.

[Archnomad]

Well, I already play Space Wolves, so if anyone gives me jip I'll just bring out the Wolves, no problemo.

 

On Codex BA, I've always tried to veer from the "We are chaos raven guard with moar jetpack" image. Barring with the Sahaal army I did (I feel it's quite right for that to have a lot of raptors), but I always tried to show that they're not jetpack maniacs. They're terrifying maniacs.

 

Also; "If a Space Marine squad fails it's morale test, they also have decided that they cannot win/survive against the current odds, but their devotion to their cause and to their brothers means that they will keep on fighting, and perhaps dying, anyway."

 

ATSKNF, you still retreat. Just automatically rally. So, why couldn't a chaos marine go "this isn't working, fall back", and only fall back to safety, rather than off the battlefield? I know Chaos Marines are pretty selfish, egotistical, narcissistic, whatever, but they're not (all) cowards, and they're certainly not idiots. And I imagine there's a certain "Stay now, get shot by those guardsmen, flee now, get killed by Krieg later... hmm, we'll stay" decision that goes on :P.

 

Those're my thoughts ;) I don't see why so many people would be so unhappy with it O.o, in my gaming circle, we all know each other pretty well, and have a load of conversions, counts as etc. I probably wouldn't play this army against a complete stranger, I would play with my Space Wolves, or Death Guard. :)

 

Archy

[Epic Thoughts]

Your money, your models. I say do it. Stick to it. And don't let the neighsayers convince you otherwise.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Another good source is to check out Soul Hunter and how they implement pre/post heresy tech. its been 10,000 years, battlefield looting does happen if you cant build your own.

 

Wonderful idea though and yea, would be cool to see on the table.

[Gree]

So, no, Chaos Space Marines should not have ATSKNF under any circumstances. It is not because they are not brave, it is because they are not loyal to anything but themselves.

 

What about Word Bearers? They fight amoungst themselves, but I always imagined them to be the most fanatic and organized of the traitor marines.

[Legatus]

That's why the previous rules for the Dark Apostle allowed him to make nearby Word Bearers units fearless. But even in the current Codex you can have every of your units be equipped with a banner (aka the Icon of Chaos Glory) which will make them stand their ground even against a lot of opposition. The Word Bearers have been described as marching into battle unwavering under banners of the dark gods IIRC, and the Icons of Chaos Glory in every squad are pretty much exactly that. The icon does what other banners do now (see Space Marine company standards or IG regimental standards), just for that particular unit instead of nearby units as well. But once the banner bearer is down, and only a few of the unit are left alive, perhaps at that point their devotion is not as complete as they claim and they will not be willing to die for the dark gods. :D Up until that point most units in that army will have a re-rollable LD 10 for morale tests.

The "Dark Apostle" of the army is fully fearless. Put him in a unit of Marines blessed by the chaos gods (aka possessed) and they will fight till the end.

[Archnomad]

I don't see the word bearers being broken so easily... I always saw them as fanatical as a world eater (just not as frenzied). And why wouldn't another just you know, pick up the banner if they hold it in such highe rega- oh wait. -.-'

 

And I don't think Word Bearers are that big on Possessed either, but hey ho.

 

Soul Hunter is on the "to do" list <_<

 

 

Edit; Somethin fairly major here, I haven't read Lord of the Night in ages, but did Krieg have wings? I have this awful niggling thought of the phrase "Wings that phased in and out of reality". Anyone feel like clearing this up? Thanks!

[Dark Mechanicum]

Yea, Krieg did have wings and was doing the shadow thing.

[David the Despoiler]

Sounds cool, I was contemplating something similar myself. Keep us up to date!

[Archnomad]

God damn it Krieg!

 

Hmm, well there's the new BA dex. Only thing is all their "essentials" don't seem very NL-y. I.e., Stormraven, and their many Dreads. And the Baal pred etc. =/

 

Suggestions anyone? I refuse to use that god awful codex we have atm.

[TheDarkApostle]

I don't see the word bearers being broken so easily... I always saw them as fanatical as a world eater (just not as frenzied). And why wouldn't another just you know, pick up the banner if they hold it in such highe rega- oh wait. -.-'

 

And I don't think Word Bearers are that big on Possessed either, but hey ho.

 

Soul Hunter is on the "to do" list :huh:

 

 

Edit; Somethin fairly major here, I haven't read Lord of the Night in ages, but did Krieg have wings? I have this awful niggling thought of the phrase "Wings that phased in and out of reality". Anyone feel like clearing this up? Thanks!

Now I can't remember the exact quote in the IA, but the meaning was essesially the same:

 

"The assault of a Word Bearer Host is a nightmare for any commander, as they will not stop until the Apostle commands it, or every single one of them lies dead."

 

Now THAT's some dedication if you want my opinion ;)

 

TDA

 

I don't see the word bearers being broken so easily... I always saw them as fanatical as a world eater (just not as frenzied). And why wouldn't another just you know, pick up the banner if they hold it in such highe rega- oh wait. -.-'

 

And I don't think Word Bearers are that big on Possessed either, but hey ho.

 

Soul Hunter is on the "to do" list :)

 

 

Edit; Somethin fairly major here, I haven't read Lord of the Night in ages, but did Krieg have wings? I have this awful niggling thought of the phrase "Wings that phased in and out of reality". Anyone feel like clearing this up? Thanks!

Now I can't remember the exact quote in the IA, but the meaning was essesially the same:

 

"The assault of a Word Bearer Host is a nightmare for any commander, as they will not stop until the Apostle commands it, or every single one of them lies dead."

 

Now THAT's some dedication if you want my opinion ;)

 

TDA

[Seregon]

Assault Marines as troops and a the unit with death masks that force the opponent to make a Ld-2 or strike at WS1? What's not to love?

[Rain]

The fact that Chaos Marines don't have ATSKNF is kind of silly in my mind. I mean sure they are selfish and corrupted, but say a squad runs and escapes, what is their endgame? If the rest of the force is killed then they will be hunted down and killed as well, if not then their comrades will just execute them for cowardice or turn them into spawn. Now I understand that similar logic can be applied to say guardsmen but guardsmen are mere humans and therefore vulnerable to actual fear and panic whereas traitor marines are still Astartes and therefore do not really register fear meaning that their decisions can remain far more rational.

 

Furthermore the fluff generally represents secular traitor marines as very well organized and highly professional making it highly unlikely for such a force to simply be routed. Oh and if undivided marines are too self loving and traitorous to stay and fight, then why are Slaanesh followers, who make a cult of narcissism and corruption all totally fearless? It just doesn't make any sense.

[Legatus]

Furthermore the fluff generally represents secular traitor marines as very well organized and highly professional making it highly unlikely for such a force to simply be routed.

And that's not what happens when a unit fails a morale test.

 

"A fall back move is a fighting withdrawal rather than an out-and-out rout. Sometimes a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds is the only option left. A withdrawal can give troops the chance to retire to a stronger position, to regroup and mount a fresh attack, or to hold back the approaching enemy."

 

A unit with a lower Leadership value will get the impression that they cannot survive where they stand much sooner, while a unit with a higher Leadership test needs much more opposition to get to that conclusion. Once they have reached that conclusion, the unit is convinced that they will be killed if they stay where they are and not retreat to a more advantageous position. At that point there is nothing in it for a Chaos Marine squad to just stay and die. They would only buy their comrades more time to fulfill their objectives, but why would they want to die for that? Why would they give a damn about the others achieving victory if they themselves are dead and cannot benefit from it? If they fall back now, even if the battle may be lost, they still have the chance to escape and come back to fight another day.

 

 

A loyalist Marine unit that fails a morale test or is below half strength might also be certain that they will die if they remain where they are, but in contrast to the motivation of a traitor Marine, they are actually willing and prepared to sacrifice themselves just so that their brothers can achieve victory.

 

 

Oh and if undivided marines are too self loving and traitorous to stay and fight, then why are Slaanesh followers, who make a cult of narcissism and corruption all totally fearless?

Because "fearless" implies a whole different level of lack of self preservation than 'ATSKNF'. Berserkers do not care if their squad mates are cut down or if they themselves are in the danger of being killed, as long as they take as much enemies with them as possible in their killing frenzy. Noise Marines do not fear pain, they welcome it, and being shot or stabbed is an exciting experience for them. Instead of panic in the face of impending destruction they become ecstatic. Thousand Sons are just souls inside a suit of armour. If their Sorcerer commands them, they will do it. And even if the armoru is destroyed, a powerfull Sorcerer might be able to retain their soul and put it into a nother suit. The thought "Oh no, I am going to die" will never enter their thought.

 

 

Normal squad (including Chaos Marines): "Oh no, I am going to die if I stay where I am. I better fall back a bit to have any chance at all."

 

Loyalist Marines: "Oh no, I am going to die if I stay where I am. But I have to fight on, so that even if I die my brothers will triumph in the name of the Emperor."

 

Fearless unit: "Raaawr, kill!"

[Archnomad]

Word Bearer: "In the name of our dark masters, I shall stand and be an immovable bastion of faith. My enemies shall part around me before I fall, I am unstoppable. Impurity shall be my armour, hate shall be my weapon, and immortality will be my reward. We shall tear down their idols, destroy their temples and murder their priests! And then they will know that the god that they worship is nought but a corpse! Let the galaxy burn! And the heavens shall bleed.

 

 

Does that really sound like the kind of fellow that will rout? ATSKNF you STILL FLEE. Without Atsknf you can (and often do, if you've lost enough men) rout completely and run off the board. I stand by my point that a chaos marine will fall back to a safer position, then continue the fight. Which ATSKNF represents perfectly. Example;

 

CSM squad is shot and 6 die -> They fail LD, which represents them realising staying where they are is folly, so they run -> they rally again from a safer position (representing the automatic rally of ATSKNF) -> they continue the fight from there.

 

The kind of thing you're describing for space marines sounds more like fearless. The "I will never flee so my brothers survive". They still run with ATSKNF, they just rally.

 

Archy

[Legatus]

In the name of our dark masters, I shall stand and be an immovable bastion of faith. My enemies shall part around me before I fall, I am unstoppable.

Does that sound like someting Chaos Marine #6 from squad Gamma would recite? If that is the Dark Apostle speaking, well, Chaos Lords are fearless. If that is a CSM speaking, it is not like tele-evangelists believe the crap they are preaching. A battle cannon shell tearing his squad mates apart will be an effective wake up call.

 

Space Marines have never been entirely fearless. I assume because GW did not want to take morale entirely out of the game (well, for like 80% of the forces played anyway). They have allways had rules where they may fail morale tests, and suffer some consequences for it, but are then not quite out of the game.

 

There will be a lot of situations in the game where a particular special rule will not reflect the on unit as it is intended to. Staying in a fight against some Orks because they won the combat out of an imense amount of luck would be "brave" of your men. Staying in a fight against an Ironclad Dreadnought even though the squad is only armed with Krak Grenades but has a few Meltaguns it would have to be out of combat to use would not be so brave.

 

Space Marines can retreat from an unfavourable combat or exposed position (their new combat tactics rules even allow them to have more controll over when they might do that), but they will automatically rally if given the opportunity and will even continue to fight if their unit strength would usually considered too low to achieve much (i.e. below 50%).

Fearless units will never ever fall back, even if they get mauled in combat with a Dreadnought or Carnifex without any real chance to hurt it.

 

That there may be a way of granting Word Bearers unit fearlessness, as they had in the last Codex via a Dark Apostle special rule, would be ok, but I don't think Word bearers should be fearless as a general rule. Talk of devotion to the dark gods is cheap.

 

Chaos Marines already have a higher Leadership value than loyalists, and with an Icon in the squad will hardly ever fall back. A Word Bearers unit carrying an undivided Chaos Icon will be hard to rout. Only when the casualties pile up and the Icon falls will they seriously consider retreat. And when they do, traitor Marines just are not as dedicated to the cause or their comrades as loyalists are. The clue is in the title. Even Word Bearers are in it for themselves, they expect something for themselves out of their relationship with the dark gods. They might one day want to replace the Dark Apostle, so they may be less inclined to die for him.

[Justiciar]

I think using the BA codex would fit nicely and I am seriously contemplating the same idea. It fits with the jump pack theme but does not force you to totally rely on it. The black rage could just be the NL predatory desire to finish the kill taking hold. As for the Stormraven, why not a Stormbird? It is the predecessor of the Thunderhawk and seems to hold a smaller complement of troops from what I see in the HH fiction so it would fit for NL purposes.

 

The dreadnaught thing is hard to reconcile so you might have to hold off on using that in the same way you would have to excluded landspeeders, scouts, LR crusaders etc. Death Company will also be problematic. However other sources support that BA codex use. For example from Soul Hunter they have a lot of squad cohesion which would be mirrored in the ATSKNF and there is a fair amount of talk of how they may hate their squad mates but they would still support them/die for them. They even do a "deepstrike" with a landraider ala the new BA codex.

 

Lastly, the ridiculous stats rumored to be on some of the BA characters would easily fit a Heresy era NL champ or captain.