A look into the math behind Turbo'd Speeders

[Top Secret]

Intro: The point of this article is not to make the argument that Landspeeders are the greatest thing since beer.

Nor does the math in this article bring into account any of the following:

 

1. Weight of Fire

2. Template Weapons (Ignore cover)

3. Consequences of a Turbo'd Landspeeder getting an immobilized result

4. AP1 weapons (Although I'm not sure this would matter, as it would also negatively affect other armour values aswell.

5. Extra armour (Speeders can't have it, but other vehicles can)

 

I am not a math major (Failed Algebra in high school) and have not taken math so far in College. If someone could mathhammer in #3 for me, I would appreciate it. I lack the comprehension.

 

This is simply a reference for making quick tactical decisions on the battlefield. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I will provide you with an example.

 

Example: It's turn 6 on a kill point game. Both sides are tied at 5 each and you're CCW Scout squad is sitting pretty with a Missile Launcher in some cover hoping to not get noticed. There is a lowly Landspeeder Turboing a few feet away (A juicy target in a killpoint game) and a Dreadnought parked in some area terrain after it just ate your favorite tactical squad. You've got a clear line of sight to both, which one do you roll the dice with and try and pop? Pro-Tip: Not the Landspeeder!

 

Now, before I get my hands dirty, so to speak, some nomenclature and notes:

 

CAV10 = Cover-Save Armour Value 10

% P/G = Percent chance to score a Penetrating and/or Glancing hit

I did not include chance to hit in this, because I want it to apply to all armies and all weapons that it can. This is meant to be used to show the relative differences between CAV10 and different AV levels against a variety of weapon strengths.

 

Right, so let's begin:

 

STR 6 vs CAV10 = 2/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) x 1/2 = 25% P/G

STR 6 vs AV11 = 1/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 33% P/G

STR 6 vs AV12 = 1/6 (Glance) = 17% P/G

 

Conclusion? STR 6 CAV10 vs AV11 = CAV10 is slightly superior. This is hardly surprising. The effectiveness of a Turbo-boosted Speeder lays somewhere between AV11 and AV12 vs STR 6. Not too shabby. Not too interesting either. A 40k newbie could surmise this. But what happens when the STR of the weapon starts to climb? The weapon starts to experience diminishing returns. And quickly!

 

STR 7 vs CAV10 = 3/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) x 1/2 = 33% P/G

STR 7 vs AV11 = 2/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 50% P/G

 

We see that the chance to P/G (on average) a turbo-boosting skimmer has jumped 8%, while the chance vs AV11 has gone up over twice that: 17% Let's keep going with STR 7 weapons:

 

STR 7 vs AV 12 = 1/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 33% P/G

 

Exactly 33%, just as a Turbo-Boosting Skimmer. At this STR level, a Turbo-Boosted Skimmer is essentially as resilient as a Dreadnought vs a single STR 7 P/G. Let's move on to STR 8, shall we?

 

STR 8 vs CAV10 = 4/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) x 1/2 = 42%

STR 8 vs AV11 = 3/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 66%

STR 8 vs AV12 = 2/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 50%

STR 8 vs AV13 = 1/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 33%

 

Wow, so what do we see here? CAV10 is better protection than AV12 vs STR 8 weapons. Ever been in a situation where your missile launcher could either shoot at a Dreadnought or a Turbo'd Landspeeder? Now you know which one is EASIER to kill!

 

Going on:

 

STR 9 vs CAV10 = 5/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) x 1/2 = 50%

 

I just wanted to point out, once you hit STR 9 weapons, we've essentially hit a horizontal plane. Weapons cannot really become anymore deadly vs our Turbo'd Landspeeder because, even if they hit, they have a 50% chance to still miss. (This does not take templates into account)

 

STR 9 vs AV11 = 4/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 83% P/G

STR 9 vs AV12 = 3/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 67% P/G

STR 9 vs AV13 = 2/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 50% P/G

 

Wow, now we're really starting to get a lot for our 50 point Speeder. Against a Lascannon, you might as well shoot that guys Vindicator or Ironclad because CAV10 vs AV13 is a wash!

 

STR 10 vs CAV10 = 6/6 (Pen) x 1/2 = 50% P/G

STR 10 vs AV11 = 5/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 100% P/G

 

Did your Landspeeder and your Razorback both just get pegged by that Tau Hammerhead? Guess which one is going to skim away...

 

STR 10 vs AV12 = 4/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 83% P/G

STR 10 vs AV13 = 3/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 67% P/G

STR 10 vs AV14 = 2/6 (Pen) + 1/6 (Glance) = 50% P/G

 

Now, I'm not about to claim that a Turbo'd Landspeeder is as tough as a Landraider, but... well, yeah it is. :eek

 

In all honesty, the 4+ cover save offered by a Turbo'd Landspeeder is quite powerful, not to mention misleading to our opponents. Just remember: The higher the Strength of the shot, the more of a waste it is from your opponent. It's like trying to shoot down fly's with a 50 caliber rifle.

 

Without trying to turn this into a Tactica on Landspeeders, this is what makes the Land Speeder Typhoon so fantastic: Anytime you are not going to shoot, Turbo Boost! Only your opponents long range and high strength weapons are going to be able to reach you! Any day a Hammerhead is shooting at your Speeder and not your Landraider, is a day you can seize victory!

 

- Top Secret

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Still too fragile for me, even after all that fancy math!

[templargdt]

I almost always have a squadron of two MM/HF landspeeders in my lists, and they never, ever fail to perform excellently for me.

[Koremu]

I'd shoot whichever one has a Heavy Flamer and can get in range to use it on the Scouts, tbh.

[ShinyRhino]

I'd shoot whichever one has a Heavy Flamer and can get in range to use it on the Scouts, tbh.

 

The OP's whole scenario revolves around this missile launcher shot being the last shot of the game, I'm assuming.

 

It's some surprising math, that's for sure. In raw data, it's really valuable when you're the firer. But it's only marginally useful data when selecting units to use on the field. There's just too many other factors to consider when comparing the two outside this specific scenario.

Skimmers moving Flat Out have to move that 24", which might be detrimental to the result of the game (moving 24" away from an objective, or moving from outside range INTO range of enemy guns.

There's also the huge difference in values when you compare S4 and S5 weapons against the two. Neither can even scratch a Dread in the front of side arcs, but both can Wreck that Speeder. And the volume of fire is typically MUCH higher for S4 weapons, as they're trooper weapons, or capable of Rapid Fire.

 

Not discounting the math, though. It was a definite eye-opener.

[Race Bannon]

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously hideous models.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

yeah flat out move 24" and you'll be within range of every gun on the board. but you get a 4+ save cool

[ShinyRhino]

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously hideous models.

 

No way, man. The Flying Shoe is dead sexy! :blush:

[Koremu]

yeah flat out move 24" and you'll be within range of every gun on the board. but you get a 4+ save cool

Pffft. You can move anything between 18" and 24", and if you aren't out of LOS of at least three quarters of the enemy army, then you're either playing on an empty table, or you're making a mistake.

[Top Secret]

I'd shoot whichever one has a Heavy Flamer and can get in range to use it on the Scouts, tbh.

 

Which is a good call; however, in the provided scenario neither the dread nor the Speeder were in range for such an attack. I just want to make it clear again, I am not trying to portray Speeders as any better than they actually are. Essentially all this thread is about is to address people's "gut feeling" on just how hard it is to take out a Speeder at range with boost.

 

For instance, prior to me getting intensely bored in class the other day, and figuring this all out, if you had asked me if it is easier to pop a Dreadnought or a Landspeeder Turbo Boosting with a Lascannon, I would have blurted out Landspeeder before you had finished asking the question. And I would have been wrong.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously hideous models.

 

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously, ridiculously, professionally good looking models.

[Top Secret]

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously hideous models.

 

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously, ridiculously, professionally good looking models.

 

Indeed.

 

In all honesty, I absolutely love the Land Speeder model and could not imagine one better.

[FlamingDeth]

I am slowly being convinced to build more of those ridiculously hideous models.

Well, look at it this way, it could be worse.

[Race Bannon]

You guys :lol:

 

I like the look, but they are a pain to build. It's the main reason I don't have more, but the math is making them too good NOT to use.

[River Black]

Now, I'm not about to claim that a Turbo'd Landspeeder is as tough as a Landraider, but... well, yeah it is.

 

I wouldnt go as far as to say this just yet...

 

As you stated at the begining of your article you did not take into account 1. Weight of Fire, 2. Template Weapons, and 3. Consequences of a Turbo'd Landspeeder getting an immobilized result. You cant voluntarily leaveout crucial factors that negativly impact the turbo boosting speeder when trying to figure out its durability when compared to other vehicles. If you take into account the number of shots thrown at both vehicles and the chance destroy both vehicles on a glancing hit you will see a slighty diffrent result from the one your adviertising. For example a Single Space marine shooting a lascannon at a land raider has a whopping 3.7% chance to destory that vehicle. The same space marine shooting a single lascannon at a turbo boosted landspeeder has a 10.19% chance of destroying it. Granted those arnt great odds but also keep in mind that all of the other space marine vehicles have free smoke launchers and can also give up a turn shooting, pop smoke, move twelve and reap the same benefit of a cover save.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

what about if you turbo a landspeeder you'll be in range of every enemy gun? unless your turboing in the opposite direction. A table is only 48" wide Doesnt sound very survivable to me.

[Koremu]

what about if you turbo a landspeeder you'll be in range of every enemy gun? unless your turboing in the opposite direction. A table is only 48" wide Doesnt sound very survivable to me.

You're repeating yourself. Allow me to too;

 

yeah flat out move 24" and you'll be within range of every gun on the board. but you get a 4+ save cool

Pffft. You can move anything between 18" and 24", and if you aren't out of LOS of at least three quarters of the enemy army, then you're either playing on an empty table, or you're making a mistake.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Thanks for pointing that out, allow me to as well.

 

I can't move my Rhinos, land raiders, predators, vidicators, razorbacks, whirlwinds or any of my infantry between 18-24". So how is it I can move anything that distance? and why would I want to unless i was comitting suicide, or if I played one of the assault oriented marine chapters. Feel free to move your lanspeeders 24" in my direction, and I'll feel free to remove them from the table!

[Top Secret]

Now, I'm not about to claim that a Turbo'd Landspeeder is as tough as a Landraider, but... well, yeah it is.

 

I wouldnt go as far as to say this just yet...

 

 

I did not. You conveniently left my "wink" out of your quote thereby changing the tone of my statement from a sarcastic one to a factual one.

[Koremu]

Thanks for pointing that out, allow me to as well.

 

I can't move my Rhinos, land raiders, predators, vidicators, razorbacks, whirlwinds or any of my infantry between 18-24". So how is it I can move anything that distance? and why would I want to unless i was comitting suicide, or if I played one of the assault oriented marine chapters. Feel free to move your lanspeeders 24" in my direction, and I'll feel free to remove them from the table!

You need to build better terrain. Fantasy Battle has scenery, 40k has terrain.

 

Most of my terrain is big enough to hide a Land Speeder. About a third is big enough to hide a Squadron :)

 

Land Speeders are also considerably more durable in CC if moving 12+ as they simply don't get hit and cannot be combat locked.

 

Furthermore, an enemy who does blaze away at my Land Speeders is ignoring the Rhinos... and those are what actually wins the game.

[Top Secret]

Now, I'm not about to claim that a Turbo'd Landspeeder is as tough as a Landraider, but... well, yeah it is.

 

I wouldnt go as far as to say this just yet...

 

 

I did not. You conveniently left my "wink" out of your quote thereby changing the tone of my statement from a sarcastic one to a factual one.

 

As you stated at the begining of your article you did not take into account 1. Weight of Fire, 2. Template Weapons, and 3. Consequences of a Turbo'd Landspeeder getting an immobilized result. You cant voluntarily leaveout crucial factors that negativly impact the turbo boosting speeder when trying to figure out its durability when compared to other vehicles. If you take into account the number of shots thrown at both vehicles and the chance destroy both vehicles on a glancing hit you will see a slighty diffrent result from the one your adviertising. For example a Single Space marine shooting a lascannon at a land raider has a whopping 3.7% chance to destory that vehicle. The same space marine shooting a single lascannon at a turbo boosted landspeeder has a 10.19% chance of destroying it. Granted those arnt great odds but also keep in mind that all of the other space marine vehicles have free smoke launchers and can also give up a turn shooting, pop smoke, move twelve and reap the same benefit of a cover save.

 

I grant you all that you've stated in your post. However, please re-read the following:

 

 

 

Intro: The point of this article is not to make the argument that Landspeeders are the greatest thing since beer.

 

I am not a math major (Failed Algebra in high school) and have not taken math so far in College. If someone could mathhammer in #3 for me, I would appreciate it. I lack the comprehension.

 

This is simply a reference for making quick tactical decisions on the battlefield.

 

In all honesty, the 4+ cover save offered by a Turbo'd Landspeeder is quite powerful, not to mention misleading to our opponents. Just remember: The higher the Strength of the shot, the more of a waste it is from your opponent. It's like trying to shoot down fly's with a 50 caliber rifle.

 

This was the point of my article. Not that Landspeeders are Gods of the battlefield, but that in specific situations, they are cheap, deadly vehicles that are also hard to take down. I have no delusions that a Turbo'd Speeder is not as tough as a Landraider, but you yourself must have no delusions about the points cost of said vehicles. Also, while nearly any Space Marine vehicle may pop smoke to achieve a 4+ cover save, they may only do it once. A Landspeeder ALWAYS has this option. If juicy targets present themselves, simply go into defense mode. Finally, remember what I said of your opponent shooting at your speeder vs your Landraider. The speeder is more likely to be taken down, but many do not realize how small the chance of Lascannoning your speeder is, so they shoot at the Speeder when they should be shooting the Landraider.

 

what about if you turbo a landspeeder you'll be in range of every enemy gun? unless your turboing in the opposite direction. A table is only 48" wide Doesnt sound very survivable to me.

 

A standard table is 72" wide, not 48". You seem to only be thinking with one Axis, instead of two. A Landspeeder may move perpendicular to the orientation of the enemy, it need not move directly towards or away from them.

 

- Top Secret

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I'd call that 72" long. and if you're flying sideways across the table you're effectively running away from the battle! good job!

[Koremu]

I'd call that 72" long. and if you're flying sideways across the table you're effectively running away from the battle! good job!

Depends where the enemy (and the Objectives...) are. Land Speeders are neither intended nor designed for frontal assaults. Flanking manoevers (and I don't mean Outflank here), crushing the weak point on the enemy deployment, using their supermobility to exploit terrain... all of these are the meat and drink of Land Speeder use.

[Top Secret]

I'd call that 72" long. and if you're flying sideways across the table you're effectively running away from the battle! good job!

 

You know what I meant and you fail to make any point with your "running away from the battle" statement. When you play 40k do you set up your guys, have your opponent set up his, and point to the center of the board and go "Ok, we'll meet here and kill eachother." You're sarcasm makes you look like you are trolling. At the risk of feeding you:

 

YES, I am effectively running away from the battle. I can then contest an objective 27" away, or NOT die and become a kill point. Really, what is your point here? What are you trying to say?e

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

LOL

 

what I'm trying to say is you can't move 24" on a warhammer table and expect to be safe. the only time you would be is to capture an objective or something that really is in no mans land.

 

so my opinion is moving 24" to get a 4++ save isnt that brilliant as everyone makes it out to be. landspeeders die to anything short of an unarmed child!